Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

blevins13 said:
I am not sure if you understood what I said.

If you want to compare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users


Closest Modern

1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)



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That sample comes from Greek Province of Thessally , near the aegean sea
 
blevins13 said:
So why you post studies for Caucasian Albania. You believe that is relevant for Apollonia.


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To show you that some people want to fit Albania in the caucasus with Albania in europe
 
Archetype0ne said:
Log02 should give you a better fit. Log02 is closer than Log04 from what I have seen.
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both samples from Thessaly Greece ..............are you claiming that Albanians are Thessalians?

you do know the only true ancient albanians came from Dardania which is modern Kosovo, which speak Gheg ......................I know the Tosk Albanians hate this and always put down the Ghegs
 
blevins13 said:
You realizing that the samples that you are using to validate your point are geographically closer to Italy than Albania. I will get back to you when samples will came from Albania, but meanwhile stop drawing conclusions that Italian are closer to Illyrians that Albanians. They are closer to the Illyrian Dalmatian Tribe but not to all Illyrians, especially the South Illyrians, namely Albanoi.



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You still don't get it. I don't care whether I'm close to the ancient Illyrians or not.

In the first instance I was pointing out that Northeast Italians, NOT ME, were closer to the samples from the western Balkans than those of any Albanians I had seen posted. So, by implication, if the Albanians had always resided there, then they had changed, and again by implication, perhaps it was the new Slavic ancestry.

In the second instance, after seeing that you just decided that the sample closest to modern Albanians from any ancient time period anywhere in the general vicinity MUST BE the Illyrians, without any actual scientific proof whatsoever, I tried to explain that this was a completely incorrect way of going about things.

Surely you see that???

@Cerc,

I always thought that was obvious, but given the posts in our threads lately, I thought perhaps it was indeed not obvious to people.

In the case of the "Illyrians", I think that most probably someone from the mountainous areas closest to the Tyrrhenian Sea is not descended from the Illyrians. What is probably true, however, is that a group of people from somewhere around, perhaps, Hungary, wound up both in the lower Balkans and Italy.

That isn't to say that some "Illyrians" didn't go to Italy, and some "Romans" didn't go to the Illyrian and other Balkan lands.

Neither of these scenarios are easy to quantify.

Now, if you have place X, with people of a certain autosomal make up, and 1000 years later you have people in that place X who have a big chunk of that same autosomal "cluster", then they probably are descendants of the first group, unless you can prove pretty decisively that something else in the interim created that similarity, i.e. total wipe out and then replacement by people with a similar autosomal structure, for example.

Proclaiming these things without proof doesn't cut it.
 
torzio said:
both samples from Thessaly Greece ..............are you claiming that Albanians are Thessalians?

you do know the only true ancient albanians came from Dardania which is modern Kosovo, which speak Gheg ......................I know the Tosk Albanians hate this and always put down the Ghegs
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You got it.


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Angela said:
You still don't get it. I don't care whether I'm close to the ancient Illyrians or not.

In the first instance I was pointing out that Northeast Italians, NOT ME, were closer to the samples from the western Balkans than those of any Albanians I had seen posted. So, by implication, if the Albanians had always resided there, then they had changed, and again by implication, perhaps it was the new Slavic ancestry.

In the second instance, after seeing that you just decided that the sample closest to modern Albanians from any ancient time period anywhere in the general vicinity MUST BE the Illyrians, without any actual scientific proof whatsoever, I tried to explain that this was a completely incorrect way of going about things.

Surely you see that???

@Cerc,

I always thought that was obvious, but given the posts in our threads lately, I thought perhaps it was indeed not obvious to people.

In the case of the "Illyrians", I think that most probably someone from the mountainous areas closest to the Tyrrhenian Sea is not descended from the Illyrians. What is probably true, however, is that a group of people from somewhere around, perhaps, Hungary, wound up both in the lower Balkans and Italy.

That isn't to say that some "Illyrians" didn't go to Italy, and some "Romans" didn't go to the Illyrian and other Balkan lands.

Neither of these scenarios are easy to quantify.

Now, if you have place X, with people of a certain autosomal make up, and 1000 years later you have people in that place X who have a big chunk of that same autosomal "cluster", then they probably are descendants of the first group, unless you can prove pretty decisively that something else in the interim created that similarity, i.e. total wipe out and then replacement by people with a similar autosomal structure, for example.

Proclaiming these things without proof doesn't cut it.
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Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct. Can you say the same for the Illyrian Tribe of Albanoi? I would like to remind you that there are no samples from the Illyrian tribes of the South. But Log4 can give you a hint of what might come from Albania. I am not saying that Log04 is Illyrian.

Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again. I understood you, can you answer me not dogging the question.


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blevins13 said:
You got it.


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I always knew it ...............just a confirmation from my Albanian work collegue


regards




BTW, the oldest illyrian object found was from Slovenia

The Vače Situla (Slovene: situla z Vač, also vaška situla) is an ornamented Early Iron Age ritual bronze vessel (situla) found in the second half of the 19th century at the Hallstatt Archaeological Site in Vače in central Slovenia. It counts among the highest-quality such vessels in general and among the most precious archeological artifacts of the country. Dating from the 5th century BC,[1] it is considered to be one of the oldest situla objects of the northern Illyrians found in the Eastern Hallstatt zone.[2] The vessel has three rows of relief that show the ordinary life of the ruling class and also reflect the religious understanding of the world in that time.[3] It is on display in the National Museum of Slovenia.
 
I wish I read more autosomal facts from Jovialis, Pax Augusta, Salento, etc. instead of these?Albanians aint nothing and nobodies, Dardanian homeland, BA vessels from Slovenia, and whatnot.

View attachment 12903

The plot is clear how close the locals of Viminacium are to Albanians and Mainland Greeks.

Sure, we got ~10% additional blue eyes from the medieval Slavs, we got it. Let?s move on please.
 
torzio said:
I always knew it ...............just a confirmation from my Albanian work collegue


regards




BTW, the oldest illyrian object found was from Slovenia

The Vače Situla (Slovene: situla z Vač, also vaška situla) is an ornamented Early Iron Age ritual bronze vessel (situla) found in the second half of the 19th century at the Hallstatt Archaeological Site in Vače in central Slovenia. It counts among the highest-quality such vessels in general and among the most precious archeological artifacts of the country. Dating from the 5th century BC,[1] it is considered to be one of the oldest situla objects of the northern Illyrians found in the Eastern Hallstatt zone.[2] The vessel has three rows of relief that show the ordinary life of the ruling class and also reflect the religious understanding of the world in that time.[3] It is on display in the National Museum of Slovenia.
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https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Illyria_and_Its_Place_in_the_Ancient_Mediterranean_World

Illyria and Its Place in the Ancient Mediterranean World
“
Where there is no illusion there is no
Illyria.” –
Oscar Wilde
 
Italians are closer to Ancient Balkanians due to East Med admixture in Greeks and Albanians. Perhaps we are focussing too much on the additional steppe admixture in the Balkans today, rather the question is when did the East Med admixture arrive? The Greek from Marathon had plenty. I can understand that because the Athenian Empire was connected to Asia Minor. But how do Albanians get it? Is there a deeper explanation? Where the Dorians East Med?
 
blevins13 said:
Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct.
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That sample is 1600 BC. The Dalmatians of the Iron Age may have been less Steppe-like than him, and more similar to the Balkan populations.
 
Çerç said:
That sample is 1600 BC. The Dalmatians of the Iron Age may have been less Steppe-like than him, and more similar to the Balkan populations.
Click to expand...

This can be also true.


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Dianatomia said:
Italians are closer to Ancient Balkanians due to East Med admixture in Greeks and Albanians. Perhaps we are focussing too much on the additional steppe admixture in the Balkans today, rather the question is when did the East Med admixture arrive? The Greek from Marathon had plenty. I can understand that because the Athenian Empire was connected to Asia Minor. But how do Albanians get it? Is there a deeper explanation? Where the Dorians East Med?
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Steppe admixture in Balkans requires focus not because of the numbers but because of history, culture and language. On the other side East Med Dorians seems like rainbow [emoji304] land dream to me.


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The way I see it is in waves... Sardinian like (Barcin/Anatolia N), then East Med addition through some Sopot like movements, and finally steppe and northern influence through HRV MBA IA BG influences that give Log like people. Those I feel are the main ingredients to get modern Albanians and Greeks. The only thing left to clarify is the more Islander/Levant influences that after the Marathon sample can no longer be denied (since afaik they are not purely Anayolia N, but might postdate it, alas from the same direction, I suspect through Helenic Anatolian incorporation into maiand Greece.

Finally, being molded of the same waves and neighbours for millenia, even if parts of history might be endemic to one or the other pop, Greeks and Albanians are pretty much cousin populations.


Slavic admixture too, the extent has to be properly quantified.
 
blevins13 said:
Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct. Can you say the same for the Illyrian Tribe of Albanoi? I would like to remind you that there are no samples from the Illyrian tribes of the South. But Log4 can give you a hint of what might come from Albania. I am not saying that Log04 is Illyrian.

Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again. I understood you, can you answer me not dogging the question.


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You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

How can you, for goodness sakes?

WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.
 
Angela said:
You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

How can you, for goodness sakes?

WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.
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Exactly I can’t, and so can’t you. You finally got it. I am glad for this outcome.


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It seems our Albanian members missed all the discussions about the arrival of more CHG/Iranian Neo like Ancestry in Europe.

The first hint of it is all the way back in the Copper Age. While European farmer populations had only a little, part of the general make-up of the European farmers from admixture in Anatolia, Otzi, who was a metal worker from Copper Age northern Italy, had quite a bit, which Dienekes found in his "Caucasus" percentage. The only place where he went wrong is that he expected him to have a "new" y dna, but he didn't; he was still the ancient farmer G2a.

However, the autosomal change is clear.

Now, let's also keep in mind that Old Europe was, if not the first center of innovations in metallurgy, one of the first. I have posted in numerous threads here on the debate as to whether the Near East made the first really important breakthroughs in metallurgy (other than just melting down naturally occurring copper), or if it was the Balkans. You can forget about the steppe people. They borrowed the technology later. (Corded Ware, for example, had barely any copper, no bronze, and what they made was very crude. Beaker people were more adept, but they had more European farmer in them.)

I don't know if anyone will ever be able to prove it categorically either way through dating of furnaces etc., BUT, it does fit nicely with the arrival of more of that probable movement of CHG/IR farmer like ancestry into the Balkans. It makes sense, does it not? These metal workers could have followed the ancient Neolithic routes into Greece and the Balkans, and it is possible they then also moved into Italy. I have, btw, been saying this exact thing for the last 8 years at least, to the usual chorus of naysayers visiting here from other sites.

It's amazing how certain things can be predicted by applying logic to the archaeology and pre-history of Europe, and even minimal ancient dna.
 
Angela said:
You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

How can you, for goodness sakes?

WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.
Click to expand...

Exactly, i don’t know, and I am glad you realized that you don’t know either.

First you claimed that NE Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians, but we don’t know that yet. Given the extensive geographical area covered by Illyrian, their genetic admixture might have been different from north to south.

I am glad we finally agree even though it took more posts that I initially thought.


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