Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

25? This paper is claiming more like 40%. According to them Albanians are as Slavic as the 10th century Kuline samples. But at the same time they post charts where Albanians plot very near the local Balkans samples, unlike the Kuline samples which are rather shifted to the left towards Germanics.

I still don't get it. Basic knowledge of Balkan Y-DNA would tell you that it's impossible for Albanians to be that Slavic, unless they believe EV13 or R1b-L23&J-L283. I only recently came back reading anthropology stuff and it seems like there's been a shift on focusing on autosomal dna over ydna, which is regrettable imo because the former is based on an insane amount of speculation in comparison to the latter. Not saying autosomal is useless but it's undeniably extremely speculative
 
No in the real pca from the study balkans IA from Bulgaria is west of Sicily. Eurogenes is crap.

paraphrasing "Do not rely on Eurogenes PCA's cause they are crap"... "Rely on research papers." Meanwhile the very research paper this thread is based on relies on Eurogenes methods for one of their PCAs...

We ran three different PCAs:
[…]
3. One for which PCs were computed using 407 present-day North-Europeans genotyped on the HO array (Figure S9). We designed this PCA to reveal more recent drift that could separate 3rd-6th centuries CE individuals from the 10th century CE individuals. These two groups of individuals yielded a similar position in the Western-Eurasian PCA (Figure1; Figure S7) but had significantly different ancestral origins when modelling using qpWave/qpAdm (Supplementary Section 11 & Supplementary Section 12). The design of this PCA was inspired by the Eurogenes blog:
(https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/...-warriors.html).

Figure S9. North European PCA with ancient samples projected.

With all the reservation I hold towards some Eurogenes theories.
I find this whole thing beyond amusing.



UWGapSo.png

xwHbwBV.png


PCAs curated by me.
I really do not want to hear South Italians are the real ancient Greeks and North Italians the real Ancient Illyrians anymore. Then you justify such things using the same calculators, which guys criticize when they show Albanians as close to ancient samples from Illyria.

Reminds me of Nordicists or Afrocentrist talking points, just repurposed for the glorious Italians. With all love and respect to our Italian cousins, except the closeted racist ones.

PS: Edit my post and find this on my sig.
 
paraphrasing "Do not rely on Eurogenes PCA's cause they are crap"... "Rely on research papers." Meanwhile the very research paper this thread is based on relies on Eurogenes methods for one of their PCAs...
With all the reservation I hold towards some Eurogenes theories.
I find this whole thing beyond amusing.

UWGapSo.png

xwHbwBV.png

PCAs curated by me.
I really do not want to hear South Italians are the real ancient Greeks and North Italians the real Ancient Illyrians anymore. Then you justify such things using the same calculators, which guys criticize when they show Albanians as close to ancient samples from Illyria.
Reminds me of Nordicists or Afrocentrist talking points, just repurposed for the glorious Italians. With all love and respect to our Italian cousins, except the closeted racist ones.
PS: Edit my post and find this on my sig.
It is projected differently, which is evident in the PCAs. Look at the position of Bulgaria IA in the PCA of the study. It is in a different location from the PCA.

Balkans IA cluster is on the Sicily cluster and stretches to Tuscany in the Reich PCA. This is a fact, it is what it is. So I don't know why you are accusing me of making unfounded statements for nefarious purposes.

Also are you comparing me to a nordicist or afrocentric? Because that is a serious insult.
 
… instead of colored squares and circles, as PCA design you can use the faces of the Eurocup players.

… they say: inspired by the PCA “design” of …, they do not say that they used the Eurog… calculators.

… Unless I missed that part :)
 
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Can you post some pictures please? I�m curious to see the differences and to filter out the unreliable calculators as well as charts.

So far from the chart it seems that the locals of Viminacium (probably a Thraco-Illyrian mix) are in between Croatia BA and Bulgaria BA, but slightly shifted North, whereas Albanians are slightly more North, with the Northernmost IA locals almost overlapping with the Southernmost Albanian samples used here.

By the way, what does the Slovenian IA represent? It seems to plot very near modern Serbs. Was it some Illyro-Celt sample?

The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.

Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.
 
The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.
Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.
In fact the continuity is pretty strong, because of supermajority of it remains.
 
@Jov I put a line break between the part of the post where I quoted you, and the second part. It is hard to see because of the attached images but it is there. So no, unless you do feel accused of racism, you are not.

Yeah, we have been over this discussion together, 3d PCA may look wierd, different on instance, when projected on 2D plane. But we can not pick and choose our projection.

I have said this before and I will say this again. PCAs are what they are we can pick the angle and make two points overlap, which on a Z plane might be miles apart. As you have shared 3d PCA tools you know this.

Why I have mentioned even before... Forget PCAs, focus on Fstats. That is why it was created anyways. Until we have a better tool /tools this is what we have.
 
I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and many other Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.
 
I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.

Clear and concise (y)
 
Yes this is one of them which show the extent of Balkans IA.

I am sure you got my point Jov. You are a smart person. And very familiar with the tools I was mentioning earlier, likely more then me.



Alas, I have to say, we need to be aware of the information asymmetry in this anthropology, anthrogenetics field. Not all the cards are revealed to everyone.
Some might be playing Poker with their cards discovered, and raising after river, not knowing what others could... Again this is not directed @Jov. Just an observation I have come to being active on anthrofora last couple of years.
:cool-v:
 
Also, I saw some people mention Log4 and Log2. They too are on the same Mediterranean continuum. The extent of it demonstrated in the Daunian paper was from Roman Republic IA to Minoans

Totally agree. I would go as far to say that the mixture that gave us the Log's, is probably responsible for the re-/emergence of C6.
Meaning a more south east pop mixing with a more north west pop, giving us profiles we today can see from Italy, Balkans to Greece. (oversimplification ofc, given more admixture events happened before and after, but in a sense this was an important point in history)

But on this one I have to scratch my head a bit more, before being too sure, have not thought of all the details. Just a hunch/intuition.
 
The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.

Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.
Ok, thanks, I?ll check them.

I don?t feel offended at all. I personally know a guy that gets 22% Balkan on Ancestry while I get 100% Southern European and the Eastern regions of Albania have considerable amounts of Slavic Y-DNA, an input which believe it or not is visible in their appearance as well. So it all varies from person to person, as well as region to region.

If they use people from the Western mountainous areas the results will be substantially different with less Slavic and less East Med. Unfortunately the majority of the people tested in Albania are from the more mixed urban areas and don?t even represent the majority.

Anyway, I speculate that part of that Slavic input is also from Goths and Dacians who were settled South of the Danube during the Roman Empire.

What are your thoughts on the location in the PCA of those Kuline samples? Why are they not plotting towards the Russian Late Sarmatian but have a rather Western and Northern European shift? Could it be due to the Goths and Celts living in Northern Balkans at the time?
 
Also, I saw some people mention Log4 and Log2. They too are on the same Mediterranean continuum. The extent of it demonstrated in the Daunian paper was from Roman Republic IA to Minoans

No one has denied that, i specified that Albanians as part of this continuum can be closer to the South Illyrians compared to NE Italians using Log4 and Log2 as hints. Is this such a wild speculation? Should I CUT IT OUT for this reason?


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I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and many other Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.

Finally, something on which we can all agree.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the amount of Slavic input varied within Albania, with more isolated areas having less of it.

As for the racist taunt, it's probably directed at me, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Meanwhile, on calculators with no northern Italian or Tuscan samples, my closest match is usually Albanians, followed by Bulgarians.

We're all Southern European, with variations, of course. How on earth could anyone in their right senses be "racist" about some minor differences?

Well, how could anyone be racist at all, but that's another topic.
 

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