Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[Hawk]

I don't think E-V13 is essentially Arvanite. I never said so.

Arvanites from Methoni and Coroni left for South Italy. They were around 3000-4000.
Many or probably most Arvanites were brought by Byzantines:
“Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”

Theotokopoulos can find out if he does a deep-clade testing, but most of it i would expect to come via Danubian-Aegean migration during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition.

 

[ihype02]

Slovenia_EIA,0.12847775,0.145347625,0.046951625,0.009165125,0.044969625,-0.00212675,0.000910625,0.00285575,0.0113,0.0231895,0.000040625,0.00616325,-0.015181875,-0.008807875,0.000525875,0.004392,0.003715875,0.000997625,0.003613875,-0.0016725,0.0006395,0.0057035,-0.001648375,-0.00347925,-0.00154175

Iron Age Slovenia, they are pretty close to Venetians but closer to Southern French people.

Distance to:	Slovenia_EIA
0.01488968	French_Auvergne
0.01733198	Swiss_French
0.01913432	French_Occitanie
0.01920610	Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.01980443	Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02031700	Spanish_Penedes
0.02063341	Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02070245	French_Provence
0.02096292	Spanish_Girona
0.02145820	Spanish_Mallorca
0.02191731	Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02256197	Spanish_Lleida
0.02301739	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02332999	Spanish_Barcelones
0.02420578	Spanish_Baleares
0.02566588	Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02575256	Italian_Northeast
0.02611112	Spanish_Castello
0.02620068	Spanish_Pirineu
0.02663986	Swiss_German
0.02740110	Spanish_Cataluna
0.02771186	Italian_Veneto
0.02834657	Spanish_Cantabria
0.02859059	Spanish_Eivissa
0.02894017	Spanish_Valencia

 

[Riverman]

E-CTS1273 I18832 0.0293957 HRV_Pop_CA
E-V13 I14465 0.03366259 HUN_MBA_Vatya
E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
E-Z1057 I16272 0.02587514 CZE_Unetice_EBA


p.s
if true it is extremely cool and more logic that
those remains from other places other than britain

No its not. These are just similarities in G25, not the burial context of the finds and the similarities might be mostly based on the people, or better mostly women, the incoming E-V13 males paired up with. I think a survival within Lengyel is really the most likely scenario. The spread to the West happened later, especially with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi-Hallstatt connection:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

There are direct links between Psenichevo, through Basarabi, through Pannonia deep into Southern Germany, Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, within the Hallstatt sphere. The similarities and quick spread of styles and techniques means that people migrated, at least specialists and small groups.

 

[Fustan]

Thracians were enriched with E-V13.

Source? Do we have that many Thracian samples to make such a conclusion?

 

[ihype02]

Source? Do we have that many Thracian samples to make such a conclusion?

I think most Roman samples in Roman Serbia should be of Thracian and Dacian origin according to history. Plenty of E-V13 there.

 

[Hawk]

No its not. These are just similarities in G25, not the burial context of the finds and the similarities might be mostly based on the people, or better mostly women, the incoming E-V13 males paired up with. I think a survival within Lengyel is really the most likely scenario. The spread to the West happened later, especially with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi-Hallstatt connection:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

There are direct links between Psenichevo, through Basarabi, through Pannonia deep into Southern Germany, Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, within the Hallstatt sphere. The similarities and quick spread of styles and techniques means that people migrated, at least specialists and small groups.

Shit, either someone did it intentionally to troll lol.

 

[kingjohn]

No its not. These are just similarities in G25, not the burial context of the finds and the similarities might be mostly based on the people, or better mostly women, the incoming E-V13 males paired up with. I think a survival within Lengyel is really the most likely scenario. The spread to the West happened later, especially with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi-Hallstatt connection:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

There are direct links between Psenichevo, through Basarabi, through Pannonia deep into Southern Germany, Bavaria and Baden-Wuerttemberg, within the Hallstatt sphere. The similarities and quick spread of styles and techniques means that people migrated, at least specialists and small groups.

so do you think those e-v13 remains are from britain bronze and iron age
and just happen autosomally to be closer to those eastern cultures remains ?

 

[Riverman]

so do you think those e-v13 remains are from britain bronze and iron age
and just happen autosomally to be closer to those eastern cultures remains ?

We don't know where they are from. If the assignment of the subclades provided is correct, which is not sure yet and doubtful, its just the lineage ended up in Britain.

Based on the similarity maps of ph2ter and their general distance:

I14465 (E-BY4643) would fit into a Veneti context. Interestingly he clusters with the Slovenia IA group, which being dominated by R-U152, which would fit in as well. If his assignment is correct, his lineage ended up in Britain and a related branch in Germanics (Scandinavia), both fairly early.

I18527 (E-Y142743) looks Celtic or generally Central European? Would fit into a scheme of Basarabi-Hallstatt connections for this branch and its related upstream ones, like expected. Too good to be true

The similarity pointed out is correct, its just no proven context yet. If I14465 = E-BY4643 that would big, because it just ended up in Britain. But doesn't have to be. Probably the calls are wrong, I have it from a user on Anthrogenica and others might disagree with his assignment. Autosomally he is closest to Slovenia IA and Veneti people.

What's sure is that both R-U152 and E-V13 made it to Britain, most likely already in the pre-Roman Iron Age. But that's just likely, not proven yet, before the samples context being known.

 

[Fustan]

I think most Roman samples in Roman Serbia should be of Thracian and Dacian origin according to history. Plenty of E-V13 there.

There is absolutely no data here (at all in fact) to suggest that E-V13 is Thracian, this is all speculation on your part, and you really shouldn't talk about your opinions as facts.

 

[ihype02]

There is absolutely no data here to suggest that E-V13 is Thracian with this post, this is all speculation on your part, and you really shouldn't talk about your opinions as facts. You just posted a map with some history, great. Give me data instead that proves E-V13 is Thracian.

If Thracians did not have it then who did? LOL.

 

[Hawk]

We don't know where they are from. If the assignment of the subclades provided is correct, which is not sure yet and doubtful, its just the lineage ended up in Britain.

Based on the similarity maps of ph2ter and their general distance:

I14465 (E-BY4643) would fit into a Veneti context. Interestingly he clusters with the Slovenia IA group, which being dominated by R-U152, which would fit in as well. If his assignment is correct, his lineage ended up in Britain and a related branch in Germanics (Scandinavia), both fairly early.

I18527 (E-Y142743) looks Celtic or generally Central European? Would fit into a scheme of Basarabi-Hallstatt connections for this branch and its related upstream ones, like expected. Too good to be true

The similarity pointed out is correct, its just no proven context yet. If I14465 = E-BY4643 that would big, because it just ended up in Britain. But doesn't have to be. Probably the calls are wrong, I have it from a user on Anthrogenica and others might disagree with his assignment. Autosomally he is closest to Slovenia IA and Veneti people.

What's sure is that both R-U152 and E-V13 made it to Britain, most likely already in the pre-Roman Iron Age. But that's just likely, not proven yet, before the samples context being known.

All paths are leading to Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures. Atleast one of them.

Danube/Tisza cross basin.

 

[Riverman]

All paths are leading to Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures. Atleast one of them.

The only sure thing is Psenichevo and Basarabi-Bosut, and these descent largely from G?va and could have picked additional elements up on the way. But since they remain interconnected even with the Transcarpathian and Moldovon area, its clear they are Daco-Thracian and very likely E-V13 came from the original G?va group already. There is the possibility in the more Southern expansion groups, often distinguished by calling them Belegis II-G?va, but even that makes things more complicated, because the Bulgarian Fluted Ware is surely mostly E-V13 too.

 

[Hawk]

The only sure thing is Psenichevo and Basarabi-Bosut, and these descent largely from G�va and could have picked additional elements up on the way. But since they remain interconnected even with the Transcarpathian and Moldovon area, its clear they are Daco-Thracian and very likely E-V13 came from the original G�va group already. There is the possibility in the more Southern expansion groups, often distinguished by calling them Belegis II-G�va, but even that makes things more complicated, because the Bulgarian Fluted Ware is surely mostly E-V13 too.

That's for sure. We also need more samples further in Southern Balkans and South-West Balkans from Early Iron Age to Classical Age so we can cement the whole chronology. If it was present it was if not then it's strictly Daco-Thracian.

 

[kingjohn]

All paths are leading to Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures. Atleast one of them.
Danube/Tisza cross basin.

Cool
Romania, hungary,slovakia , north serbia
E-v13 the danubian

 

[Riverman]

All paths are leading to Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures. Atleast one of them.

Danube/Tisza cross basin.

Actually its the Tisza basin exclusively and you see that G?va originate upwards, at the triangle of Slovakia-Hungary-Romania. From there they moved down the Tisza basin, this is exactly the pathway from the core to the Belegis II-G?va expansion group. Probably its just chance, but major early central points, like Lăpuș were G?va was probably "born", and high elites lived, with many well-equipped warriors, were early deserted, or much reduced in importance. It almost looks as if they "were gone." That's probably similar to what we see from some Germanic tribes, like the Langobards and Gepids: We have the archaeological record, we see them settling in Transylvania, Pannonia, Noricum - then they were largely gone, only rests remained.

And now the interesting part is, just down the Tisza basin, at the crossing of the Danube and Tisza, suddenly, largely out of nothing, new huge fortified settlements pop up, like Corneşti-Iarcuri, about which I wrote already, its highly important in this context:

The fortification in Cornesti, Timisoara - the largest prehistoric citadel that is known to archeologists so far

The video is interesting for its images, the dating and context is quite clear, its part of the G?va expansion southward:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNZiAHx11N8

https://www.imperialtransilvania.co...storic-citadel-that-is-known-to-archeolo.html

Compare:

Three samples for radiocarbon dating were taken from burnt beams belonging to the
later construction. The results provide a clear indication of construction between 1450 and
1200 cal BC (Table 1 and Figure 9) combined to give a construction date of 1393?1314 (at
68.2% probability), and 1411?1270 (at 95.4%) (Figure 10).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uri_-_A_Bronze_Age_town_in_the_Romanian_Banat

It wasn't the only one. In my opinion whole tribes and especially elites with their warriors were on the move. They moved from regions of the relative North, like Maramureș down. This was right at the transition from the late Bronze to the Iron Age. The elite and people of Lăpuș lived from mining copper and probably even tin, as well as gold. They produced huge amounts of bronze weapons, sold them to much of Europe and some ended in extremely big and rich hoards. Their tumuli were among the biggest of their time and covered the entries to their valleys. They were also among the first to mass produce iron weapons and I think that's part of the reason behind this. They had first introduced improved Naue II slashing swords, and soon afterwards started to make them out of iron. They had close ties with the Mycenaean world, some of their warriors were sent there as mercenaries and later they joined the ranks of the Sea People. But their chiefs or even kings in the Carpathians still lived from the mines and bronze.
At the very transition, this seems to have resulted in a very dynamic and volatile environment and clearly, some tribes seem to have moved southward.

 

[Theotokopoulos]

Ihype02: Charles V recruited around 200 galleys full of Albanians to fight the Turks from this region. They ended up in Italy. I wish I can post maps of Albanian communities in the 15th vs. 19th centuries, but I’m too new a member. And yes, Byzantines settled them, and later Turks settled Muslim Albanians in Outer Mani ( today they’re Christian)
Sorry I’m not clear on what are precisely the inner-struggles of this particular online community. But thank you for sharing your info and point of view. It’s a fascinating topic if it can be excoriated from current politics.

 

[Archetype0ne]

trojet
you might have a point
that part of those j2b might be from
other places than britain
same can apply for the 3-4 e-v13 cases



I can't say I expected this, but huge discovery nevertheless. We still don't know for sure from when and where are these two samples, but judging by these results my bet would be Hallstatt & Slovenia (or somewhere very near Slovenia). Y86930 TMRCA is ~800 BC!


I23911; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (3G)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (5T); Z38240- C>T (4C)

Z38241 level: *no calls*

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (4T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)





I24638; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (5G); CTS9215+ C>T (4T-2C)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (7T); Z38240- C>T (2C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (5C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (5T)

FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)




I24882; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930 (xFT115799)

Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (7G); CTS9215+ C>T (2T)

Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (9T); Z38240- C>T (5C)

Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (4C)

PH1602 level: *no calls*

Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (9T)

FT115799 level: FT115799- C>A (1C)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Trojet let me know that there is some likelihood for my branch to be among the samples, just not tested deep enough,so not verifiable through the BAM files.

"And one of them is in fact under J-Z638>Z1297 (Y27522- Y21878? Z631-)"

Coincidentally one of the brother branches to my subranch, all under Y21878, is from Slovenian region of Ilirska Bistrica.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878/

On the other hand, I am not sure, maybe Rrenjet has more information on this, but maybe among these samples are also the samples from BA/IA North Albania.

 

[Constantine]

Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?

Greek Venetians are definitely still around. I know one from Tinos. Apparently there's many there.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Iron Age Slovenia, they are pretty close to Venetians but closer to Southern French people.

Distance to:	Slovenia_EIA
0.01488968	French_Auvergne
0.01733198	Swiss_French
0.01913432	French_Occitanie
0.01920610	Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.01980443	Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02031700	Spanish_Penedes
0.02063341	Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02070245	French_Provence
0.02096292	Spanish_Girona
0.02145820	Spanish_Mallorca
0.02191731	Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02256197	Spanish_Lleida
0.02301739	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02332999	Spanish_Barcelones
0.02420578	Spanish_Baleares
0.02566588	Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02575256	Italian_Northeast
0.02611112	Spanish_Castello
0.02620068	Spanish_Pirineu
0.02663986	Swiss_German
0.02740110	Spanish_Cataluna
0.02771186	Italian_Veneto
0.02834657	Spanish_Cantabria
0.02859059	Spanish_Eivissa
0.02894017	Spanish_Valencia

These tools should always be taken cum grano salis, a grain of salt. Using the entire G25 datasheet with Vahaduo PCA.

 

[ihype02]

Ihype02: Charles V recruited around 200 galleys full of Albanians to fight the Turks from this region. They ended up in Italy. I wish I can post maps of Albanian communities in the 15th vs. 19th centuries, but I’m too new a member. And yes, Byzantines settled them, and later Turks settled Muslim Albanians in Outer Mani ( today they’re Christian)
Sorry I’m not clear on what are precisely the inner-struggles of this particular online community. But thank you for sharing your info and point of view. It’s a fascinating topic if it can be excoriated from current politics.

E-V13 in Asia Minor is of recent Medieval and Ottoman Mainland Greek and very likely in Cyprus too. Southern Italy has similar percentages of E-V13 like the of rest of Italy, while Germanic Y-DNA is way higher in the North than in the South, on the other hand J2a is higher in the South (it could also be Imperial Roman too BTW because it is nearly as high in some central regions).

As for E-V13 in Greece I seriously think it's of very mixed origin from Thracian, Gothic, Ballkanic refugees, South Slavic, Albanian and Vlach. If it gets found in Ancient Greece then good for you but the chances are slim, at least for Southern regions.