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Thread: A new subclade of DF29?

  1. #1
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-BY182841

    Ethnic group
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    Country: UK - England



    Question A new subclade of DF29?

    1) My previous Y-DNA test confirmed that my haplogroup was I-DF29 / I1a* where the asterisk indicated that I tested negative for subclades I1a1 through to I1a10. Following my recent FTDNA Big Y-700 test, my refined haplogroup is now I-BY182841. It is two branches down from I-DF29 via BY183623. As FTDNA have now added BY183623 as a new branch emanating from DF29 does it become I1a11 and BY182841 become I1a11a?

    2) My only Big Y match is my (US) fourteenth cousin twice removed and we share the same surname. Our most recent common ancestor (MRCA) was born roughly 550 years ago (500ybp) in England. We are also matched to two other US men via Y111 testing and they too share the same surname and MRCA. The four of us seem to have the I1a11 subclade all to ourselves. Does anyone know roughly when the markers I-BY183623 and I-BY182841 could have been formed or what the time to our MRCA might be for an expanded cohort with these markers?

    3) Our earliest known paternal ancestor was born around the middle of the thirteenth century in England. His first name is Ralph which comes from a Norman French name Raulf. It is a contracted form of the Germanic (Old Norse) personal name Radulf that derives from rād ‘counsel’ + wulf ‘wolf’. His mother Ydania, her close relatives Eustace and Hugh and other early ancestors also have first names of Norman / Germanic origin. We hence strongly suspect that our Y-DNA heritage is of Viking then Norman then English descent. Is there any further genetic evidence to support (or contradict) this conjecture?

  2. #2
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    Interesting!
    Have you thought about uploading your data to YFull too ?

  3. #3
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the suggestion. More expense but hopefully it will answer my second question. Cheers.

  4. #4
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    The number of individual mutations you and your 14th cousin carry have should roughly indicate the number of centuries since the clade appeared.

    I would expect the TMRCA be close to your common forefather.

  5. #5
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-BY182841

    Ethnic group
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    Country: UK - England



    Thanks traveller. My 14th cousin and I have an average of seven private variants according to FTDNA. Taking seven as the number of mutations (?), then the genetic-estimated TMRCA is 700 years. This is higher than the genealogical estimate but it is in the right ballpark. Cheers.
    Last edited by mencor; 04-09-21 at 11:46. Reason: wrong word

  6. #6
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-BY182841

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    Country: UK - England



    UPDATE:

    Another fourteenth US cousin of mine has just received his Big Y-700 results and he also tests positive for the I-BY182841 SNP so confirming the known family genealogies. However, these two cousins are about eighth cousins to each other. Unlike me, they also tested positive for the I-BY183042 SNP which is a subclade of I-BY182841. Their MRCA was born in about 1630 while the MRCA for the three of us dates from about 1460.

    To date, YFull still defines my terminal SNP as I-DF29 since it currently has no other samples of any of our downstream markers for comparison. Happily, this should improve as my cousin is also forwarding his new YDNA data to YFull. It will be interesting to find out how the three genetically-derived TMRCAs compare with our known family tree.

    Although things are likely to evolve, it currently appears that the I-BY183623 SNP is indeed a new subclade of I-DF29. The next downstream SNP is the I-BY182841 one and this to date uniquely defines our surname and paternal lineages. The final downstream SNP is I-BY183042. So far, those testing positive for it belong to the US branch of the family while those testing negative to the English branch instead.

  7. #7
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-BY182841

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    Country: UK - England



    The YFull results for my US cousin are now complete. He and I have consequently been given our very own subclade of DF29; namely, I-FTB21048. It is estimated to have been formed about 4500ybp and the TMRCA as 500ybp. Our most recent common ancestor Thomas was born around 1460 in England so the match is remarkably good. This rare subclade is now a signature for our family and its surname.

  8. #8
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    Congratulations!

    Results like this make one wonder, how many branches thousands of years old are still waiting to be uncovered. Looking at your initial question if this is a Norman subclade, I wonder if you can clearly distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Norman heritage based on 13th century first names? A quick search seemed to indicate that Norman first names quickly became very popular.

    Was there a mutual interest in genealogy and DNA between you and your distant cousins?

  9. #9
    Regular Member spruithean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mencor View Post
    The YFull results for my US cousin are now complete. He and I have consequently been given our very own subclade of DF29; namely, I-FTB21048. It is estimated to have been formed about 4500ybp and the TMRCA as 500ybp. Our most recent common ancestor Thomas was born around 1460 in England so the match is remarkably good. This rare subclade is now a signature for our family and its surname.
    Very interesting to see! I hope more in-depth Y-testing can help expand the I1 tree more and more. Very interesting to see a new subclade of I-DF29!

  10. #10
    Regular Member Joey37's Avatar
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    I believe that the subclade is West Saxon and indicative of the early proliferation of DF29 subclades on the plains of northern Germany and northwest Poland during the Corded Ware Culture.

  11. #11
    Regular Member mencor's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by traveller View Post
    Congratulations!

    Results like this make one wonder, how many branches thousands of years old are still waiting to be uncovered. Looking at your initial question if this is a Norman subclade, I wonder if you can clearly distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Norman heritage based on 13th century first names? A quick search seemed to indicate that Norman first names quickly became very popular.

    Was there a mutual interest in genealogy and DNA between you and your distant cousins?
    The brother of my three-times great grandfather discovered others in America with the same very rare surname and wrote a family history as wide and as far back as he could. He managed to extend back to the Wars of the Roses period when our paternal line almost ended as our forefathers had supported the losing Lancastrian side in the Battle of Tewkesbury. Over the past several decades, numerous researchers on both sides of the Atlantic have extended our family tree enormously and back to the court of King Edward III. Happily, all the recent Y-DNA testing has confirmed our paternal lines contain no cuckolds!

    Is our Y-DNA derived from an Anglo-Saxon or Viking>Norman source? Well, our surname and its variants are corruptions of a village name in Wessex and definitely Anglo-Saxon in origin. However, all the other linguistic and historical clues point to us having Norman roots. The brother of my eighteenth great grandfather ended up as King Edward III's Clerk. He and the wider family had the French "De" prefix to their surname. As the official language of England was Anglo-Norman during his service as Clerk, he clearly spoke and wrote it. There are plenty other indicators of Norman ancestry too in addition to first names. Apart from our Anglo-Saxon surname, everything else seems to point to Norman heritage. The probability appears to favour Viking>Norman rather than Anglo-Saxon Y-DNA. Hopefully, time will tell.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Wheal's Avatar
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    My husband, sons, and father-in-law are also under DF29

  13. #13
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    I1, commonly known as Haplogroup I-M253, is a Y chromosomal haplogroup. The SNPs M253, M307.2/P203.2, M450/S109, P30, P40, L64, L75, L80, L81, L118, L121/S62, L123, L124/S64, L125/S65, L157.1, L186, and L187 have all been validated as identifying I-M253. [6] Its a subclade of Haplogroup I-M170 (I*). Although Haplogroup I1 is thought to have been present as a small lineage among Upper Paleolithic European hunter-gatherers, it cannot have been extremely prevalent due to its near-total absence in pre-Neolithic DNA data. The Neolithic I1 samples are also few, indicating a fast dispersion in the Nordic Bronze Age due to a founder effect. Today, it is most common in Sweden (52 percent of men in the county of Västra Götaland) and western Finland (more than 50 percent in Satakunta province). I-M253 is present in 38-39 percent of Swedish males, 37 percent of Norwegian males, 34.8 percent of Danish males, 34.5 percent of Icelandic males, and roughly 28 percent of Finnish males, according to national averages. In his 2006 novel Blood of the Isles, Bryan Sykes gives the members of I1 – including the presumed founding father – the moniker "Wodan."

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