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Thread: E-V13 in Northern Italy

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    E-V13 in Northern Italy

    I did take a look into the y-haplogroup frequencies in Italy and especially Northern Italy, to get a better impression of its distribution and possible association with prehistorical and historical populations. Especially Northern Italy is highly interesting becaue a strong Greco-Balkan influence seems to be less likely there to serve as a possible explanation that easily.

    Are there any studies and numbers on E-V13 specifically, so breaking E1b1b further down? Especially Liguria seems to be highly interesting, having a frequency as high as Southern Italians and a different background story from other Italian regions.

    Compare with what Maciamo compiled:
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#maps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I did take a look into the y-haplogroup frequencies in Italy and especially Northern Italy, to get a better impression of its distribution and possible association with prehistorical and historical populations. Especially Northern Italy is highly interesting becaue a strong Greco-Balkan influence seems to be less likely there to serve as a possible explanation that easily.

    Are there any studies and numbers on E-V13 specifically, so breaking E1b1b further down? Especially Liguria seems to be highly interesting, having a frequency as high as Southern Italians and a different background story from other Italian regions.

    Compare with what Maciamo compiled:
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#maps

    also beside liguria in
    bergamo plain 11%
    bergamo valley 7%


    https://i.imgur.com/9TEafCM.png

    according to this paper

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/supp...801?scroll=top

    p.s
    i truly believe some of it might be related to lombards but afcorse not all ...

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    Garibaldi's parents were Ligurian and he had haplogroup E1b as did the great painter Caravaggio (Michelangelo Merisi) from the Bergamo area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Garibaldi's parents were Ligurian and he had haplogroup E1b as did the great painter Caravaggio (Michelangelo Merisi) from the Bergamo area.


    yes he was likely e-v13
    if you have a results of his male relative ?
    i will put him in famous e1b1b1



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    Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?
    Neighboring french riviera lands like city of Marseilles was a ancient Greek trading port/lands .........

    the area up to Monaco in France was still Italian lands when Italy formed in 1860......it was traded to france some time later

    City of Nice was Italian ......Garibaldi was born in Nice
    Last edited by torzio; 06-09-21 at 18:15.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Neighboring french riviera lands like city of Marseilles was a ancient Greek trading port/lands .........the area up to Monaco in France was still Italian lands when Italy formed in 1860......it was traded to france some time later

    City of Nice was Italian ......Garibaldi was born in Nice
    Yes. He was born in Nice.
    Giuseppe Garibaldi's father Domenico came from Chiavari in eastern Liguria while his mother Rosa came from Loano north of Alassio in western Liguria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes he was likely e-v13
    if you have a results of his male relative ?
    i will put him in famous e1b1b1
    There is a Garibaldi sample on FTDNA from the district of Genua, a neighbouring place to Chiavari, so most likely the same lineage and he is E-V13, but no deeper subclade known, because he just tested y37 unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?
    While some Greek lineages could be coming from Greeks, I don't think the majority can be explained that way, because Greeks themselves rarely have a much higher percentage, which means in the most optimistic scenario, they all should be Greek descendents, which is just not a viable scenario.
    Just like some Sea Peoples and Hallstatt people, there were horned hats and helmets among them. They might have been from an earlier Iron Age migration of Indoeuropeans related to the Celtic-Pannonian transitional groups in the Alpine Hallstatt area - just a suggestion from me, I don't really know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes he was likely e-v13
    if you have a results of his male relative ?
    i will put him in famous e1b1b1

    It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

    https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?
    In modern-day Liguria there was no Greek colonization. There are evidences that lead to suppose that there were Greek presences among the Ligurians (as there were without doubt among the Etruscans).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

    https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event




    In modern-day Liguria there was no Greek colonization. There are evidences that lead to suppose that there were Greek presences among the Ligurians (as there were without doubt among the Etruscans).

    Thats why i asked
    Him
    I need more proof
    I am not in a rush to put him in the famous
    E1b1b1 untill there is more proof

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Thats why i asked
    Him
    I need more proof
    I am not in a rush to put him in the famous
    E1b1b1 untill there is more proof

    It is certainly a Ligurian surname but the distribution of the Garibaldi surname (linguistically it is of Germanic origin, latinized Longobard/Lombard Garibaldus, from Germanic Haribald) does not clarify much.

    https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...iani/GARIBALDI

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    On the other hand
    A descendents of thomas third lord berkely
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thom...Baron_Berkeley
    Tested and confirmed e-m81
    I spoke with british project adminstrator
    And he confirmed that to me...
    Another relative on male line of this berkeley
    Took the big y500 and turned a derived branch of e-m81 more specifically terminal SNP
    of E-BY9750.
    Thomas berkeley was marshal of the english
    Forces in france in the year 1340... ( during 100 years war between france and england)

    P.s
    The big y results need to be added to there project soon
    He is a descendant of Sir Maurice de Berkeley (1298-1347), younger brother of Thomas, 3rd Lord Berkeley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    On the other hand
    A descendents of thomas third lord berkely
    Tested and confirmed e-m81
    I spoke with british project adminstrator
    And he confirmed that to me...
    Another relative on male line of this berkeley
    Took the big y500 and turned a derived branch of e-m81
    Thomas berkeley was marshal of the english
    Forces in france in the year 1340... ( during 100 years war between france and england)
    A Berber marker in England? Well, that's not impossible.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas...Baron_Berkeley

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

    https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event
    Interesting. Because these data isn't the same as from the sample I had in mind, which mentioned Frisolino. So either he wrote something different elsewhere, or its another Garibaldi with E-V13. The one I did mention has an ancestor just about 10 km from where Garibaldis paternal ancestors came from. If that's true they would be 3 Garibaldis from the same area of about 10-20 km apart, of which two are proven E-V13 carriers. If they are not the same people, this increases the chances.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-09-21 at 22:43.

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    There is an old analysis of the "E" clades in Italy based on Boattini and some prior papers.

    The averages for E-V13:
    No. of Samples: 69
    % Italy as a whole: 7.81

    9.3 (Northwestern Italy: Cuneo, Piemonte, Savona and Genova, Liguria, Como and Brescia, Lombardia)
    11.0 (Northeastern Italy: Vicenza, Treviso, Aviano)
    6.9 (Emilia Romagna: Bologna)
    4.9 (Toscana: Massa/La Spezia, Pistoia, Grosseto/Siena)
    6.5 (Central Italy: Marche, Umbria and Lazio, i.e. Macerata, Foligno, Terni)
    10.6 (Southern Italy including Messina in Sicilia)
    7.1 (Sicily: Agrigento, Catania, Siracusa_
    2.4 Sardegna


    The entire discussion and breakdown can be found here. The analysis is dated, but the data is clear.
    Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.) (eupedia.com)

    In fact, I think I'll just add the data for ease of reference:

    North Italy

    In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont,one E-V13 (3.5%).

    In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, seven E-V13 (14%).

    In Como, north-west Lombardy,four E-V13 (9.5%) and one E-M78 (2.5%).

    In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, two E-V13 (5%).

    In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, five E-V13 (12.5%).

    In Treviso, central-east Venetotwo E-V13 (6.5%).

    In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, two E-V13 (7%).


    Central Italy

    In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, no E1b1b (0%) was found out of 24 samples.

    In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, only one E-V13 (7.5%) sample was found out of 13 samples.

    In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, five E-V13 (6%).

    In Foligno, central-east Umbria two E-V13 (5.5%).

    In Macerata, central-east Marche, three E-V13 (7.5%).


    South Italy

    In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, E-V13 (13%).

    In Campobasso, Molise, two E-V13 (7%).

    In Benevento, Campania,three E-V13 (8.5%).

    In Matera, Basilicata,two E-V13 (8%).

    In Lecce, Apulia, 6 E-V13 (15.5%).

    In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, four E-V13 (10.5%).

    In Catania, three E-V13 (5%).

    In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, three E-V13 (6%).

    In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, four E-V13 (9.5%).

    In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, only one E-V13 (2.5%) sample was found out of 40 samples.

    To me, in almost all cases it looks like movements from coastal areas, where Greek settlement and trading centers might have been the cause.

    I know that there has also always been the feeling that some came directly from places like Albania and Croatia, and it's possible, although I don't know why the sample from the Marche would be relatively low in that case. Perhaps it's because of low sample sizes.

    Both sources are possible.

    There's also the old Cruciani et al data, which everyone still uses. It's particularly interesting because it has data from all over Europe. Czechia and Slovakia, Hungary, Moldovia and Ukraine have interestingly high numbers.

    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/6/1300/984002
    Last edited by Angela; 05-09-21 at 21:29.


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    Thanks a lot for the summary. Its interesting how small sample sizes can distort things. Like if looking at different samples from many of the regions covered, they deviate significantly sometimes.

    I think its nearly impossible for all the Italian E-V13, and its a significant portion of the total population, to stem from Greeks or even the Adriatic coast and Balkans. Its possible for Southern Italy, but needs to proven, but for Northern Italy at least a direct pathway is nearly impossible for reaching those numbers. It think that while Celts seem to have received a minor E-V13 injection from Eastern Hallstatt, similar to Slavs, their expanson overall rather reduced the frequency. Therefore its very interesting that exactly the people, namely the Ligurians, which were presumably non-Celtic, might have harboured a higher frequency of it than the surrounding Celtic and Italic tribes. Could be a coincidence because of later migrations, like Greeks and Germanics in particular, but that rather makes no sense, because the Ligurian area being not more influenced by those than other areas of Northern Italy as far as I know.
    But probably there is a detail I'm missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Thanks a lot for the summary. Its interesting how small sample sizes can distort things. Like if looking at different samples from many of the regions covered, they deviate significantly sometimes.

    I think its nearly impossible for all the Italian E-V13, and its a significant portion of the total population, to stem from Greeks or even the Adriatic coast and Balkans. Its possible for Southern Italy, but needs to proven, but for Northern Italy at least a direct pathway is nearly impossible for reaching those numbers. It think that while Celts seem to have received a minor E-V13 injection from Eastern Hallstatt, similar to Slavs, their expanson overall rather reduced the frequency. Therefore its very interesting that exactly the people, namely the Ligurians, which were presumably non-Celtic, might have harboured a higher frequency of it than the surrounding Celtic and Italic tribes. Could be a coincidence because of later migrations, like Greeks and Germanics in particular, but that rather makes no sense, because the Ligurian area being not more influenced by those than other areas of Northern Italy as far as I know.
    But probably there is a detail I'm missing.
    On one thing you're completely incorrect, I'm afraid. The people living in today's Liguria were known as Celt-Ligurians in the Iron Age, so it would be inaccurate to say they were non-Celtic.
    Kingdoms of the Ligures - Ligurians (historyfiles.co.uk)

    However, I don't think it's very probable that they got all that E-V13 from the Celts, since they had so much less of it.

    That's different than saying they couldn't have gotten some of it from France, however, given that the Greeks had a large colony near modern Marseilles, and other satellite ones. The overall percentage of E-V13 is about 4% in Provence, for what it's worth, but coastal areas could be higher.
    The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean | BMC Ecology and Evolution | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

    Other than movement from Provence over into Liguria, there is also Luni to consider. It was a large and very cosmopolitan place with a lot of Greek influence, and when it was destroyed finally, the people scattered; some into the foothills of the mountains, some into the Magra Valley, and some, undoubtedly, along the coast.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luni,_Italy

    Then there are the Byzantines.
    A town very close to where my mother was born was built on the foundations of a Byzantine castrum. Of course, they lasted for a much shorter period in the north than in the south.
    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Exarchate_of_Ravenna



    Finally, there are whatever men were incorporated from Genoa's possessions in and around Greece. In the map the two darker colors are the only ones which were actually occupied; the rest are areas of commercial interest. I doubt this had a large influence, but I mention it for completeness.
    GenoeseCommercialEmpire.jpg




    The Veneto has much the same history. Lots of Greek trading contacts, as well as movement perhaps from some parts of the Balkans, the Byzantines, and Venice's overlordship of many parts of the Balkans and Greece.


    Finally, the Boattini study doesn't have very many samples, it's true, but the same cannot be said of the Cruciani et al study to which I linked above. Those numbers might be much more in line with reality imo.

    For those who are interested, getting very derived subclades of the E-V13 in Italy and comparing them to those in the Balkans and Italy would be very helpful, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    On one thing you're completely incorrect, I'm afraid. The people living in today's Liguria were known as Celt-Ligurians in the Iron Age, so it would be inaccurate to say they were non-Celtic.
    They were most likely similar to the Celti-Iberians, Noric and various Balkan tribes, being a fused hybrid tribe of some sort, but the original Ligurians were rather no Celts. Its not even for sure they were Indoeuropean, but at they were no Celts in the narrower sense:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguri...ient_language)

    Since they seem to have at least double to triple the usual E-V13 frequency of early Western Celts, it seems to me the logical conclusion that much of the E-V13 in the region, more so than in other Greek and trade influenced Northern Italian regions, can be attributed to these Ligurians. Of course, I wouldn't wonder about a little bit Celtic, more Greek and even more from Germanic, with some coming in later, like you described. But the bulk came more likely from the old Ligurians.
    Unfortunately I know very little about the Ligurian area and whether or not it got heavily influenced by Hallstatt in general and had close ties to Eastern Hallstatt in particular.

    Its kind of interesting that the core Hallstatt zones which were not completely Celtic in all likelihood all have still more E-V13 than the more classical Celtic areas, which got less of it, most likely transmitted from the other Hallstatt people for the most part. Italics, which is typical as well, seem to have gotten close to nothing as well for the same reason of E-V13 coming later to the West, with Thraco-Cimmerians, Hallstatt, Geto-Scythians and Greeks respectively.

    The Ligurians were influenced by Hallstatt-related Golasecca culture and Greeks:
    In the Iron Age the region is characterized by autonomous ethnic group, Ligurians. In the
    early Iron Age (VIII-VI cent. BC) is surrounded by various cultural groups, Villanova and Golasecca, in the second Iron Age will
    create, respectively, some of the pre-Roman peoples in the 'north-central Italy (the Etruscans) or will be the other substrate (Insubres
    and Boi Celts). During these periods, the Ligurians in their community structures and funerary rituals, retain their identity, while
    showing, depending on the era, influenced by these people, and the westerns Greeks, with which it interacted until the Romanization
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...AGE_NECROPOLIS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    They were most likely similar to the Celti-Iberians, Noric and various Balkan tribes, being a fused hybrid tribe of some sort, but the original Ligurians were rather no Celts. Its not even for sure they were Indoeuropean, but at they were no Celts in the narrower sense:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguri...ient_language)

    Since they seem to have at least double to triple the usual E-V13 frequency of early Western Celts, it seems to me the logical conclusion that much of the E-V13 in the region, more so than in other Greek and trade influenced Northern Italian regions, can be attributed to these Ligurians. Of course, I wouldn't wonder about a little bit Celtic, more Greek and even more from Germanic, with some coming in later, like you described. But the bulk came more likely from the old Ligurians.
    Unfortunately I know very little about the Ligurian area and whether or not it got heavily influenced by Hallstatt in general and had close ties to Eastern Hallstatt in particular.

    Its kind of interesting that the core Hallstatt zones which were not completely Celtic in all likelihood all have still more E-V13 than the more classical Celtic areas, which got less of it, most likely transmitted from the other Hallstatt people for the most part. Italics, which is typical as well, seem to have gotten close to nothing as well for the same reason of E-V13 coming later to the West, with Thraco-Cimmerians, Hallstatt, Geto-Scythians and Greeks respectively.

    The Ligurians were influenced by Hallstatt-related Golasecca culture and Greeks:


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...AGE_NECROPOLIS
    The amount of E-V13 in the Ligurians in comparison to other areas in Italy as well as in other parts of Europe very much depends on the study used. You can't just pick the one you like best.

    At any rate, even if one uses the Boattini et al study, they have roughly the same amount as the people in the Veneto. The inland areas in between have less, so I don't know how a source in Hallstatt would fit those facts.

    However, it's true that there's Hallstatt influence in Liguria and its hinterland.

    I posted this information here on the site eight years ago.

    Unfortunately, the books cited as sources are twelve years out of date.

    Some members might be interested in some recently released research.
    http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/La_Tene_culture

    As the map reflects the situation in Italy, this paper in the compendium is informative, showing influence all the way to the Ligurian coast.
    http://www.academia.edu/2198871/I_Celti_in_Italia


    A paper in the compendium suggesting something less than mass movements of people.
    http://www.academia.edu/3716151/Evid..._Bibele_Italy_


    "On balance, I still think that the Celti paper and other papers in the compendium would support my interpretation that the La Tene and earlier Hallstatt influence in eastern Liguria is not significantly different from that in other areas of Italy that *are* included in the map. I found the paper which deals with the changes made to the statue stele to be particularly interesting. We may have to agree to disagree about this one.

    As for descent from Gauls, that's another discussion altogether. The people of Liguria have been described as "Celt-Ligurians" for a reason, although I think the term "Gallic-Ligurians" might be more appropriate. In any event, I don't think anyone knows how many "Gauls" actually moved into Liguria from the direction of France, or when precisely it happened, or whether they were substantially different genetically from the "Ligurians" already inhabiting the area. If I had to speculate, I would say that the people in both areas were a combination of Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age peoples.

    I don’t believe that is at all the conclusion that should be drawn, or that was drawn, for that matter, in the Vitali paper. The researchers are looking at the samples in the context of the material culture and burial customs found at each site to determine how many of the people are *local* versus how many of them are migrants from other areas. In their words, “ In Negringen, no observable changes occurred during the use of the cemetery, while in Monte Bibele new burial customs appear, which point to transalpine contacts. If the Celtic objects were introduced by newcomers, this should be revealed by the strontium isotope analysis.” What they found is that about 20% of the people buried in Monte Bibele were non local.

    Also, the researchers found that “In Monte Bibele, two warriors changed their residency during childhood (graves 35 and 107) and three have Srisotope ratios within the local range (graves 42, 59 and 151).Overall, warriors do not seem to be more often of non-local origin than males buried without weaponry."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28889-Map-of-Hallstatt-and-La-T%C3%A8ne-expansions

    Sometimes it seems as if every time someone puts a spade in the ground in eastern Liguria or northwest Tuscany another one of these monoliths, or parts of it, are discovered. My uncle used to use one of the heads as a doorstop. :)

    They are much older than the period under discussion. The hammers and daggers were added later. Recycling, as ever in archaeology, was popular.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The amount of E-V13 in the Ligurians in comparison to other areas in Italy as well as in other parts of Europe very much depends on the study used. You can't just pick the one you like best.
    I'm probably not aware of all the studies available on the subject and its quite possible that different samples yield different frequencies. However, I found it odd because the region has no real strong Greek colonisation history, Etruscans seem to have largely lacked E-V13 and even the Germanic settlement wasn't stronger there than in some other regions, which have no more E-V13. I look at it as yet another case study and try to understand whats real and how to explain it.

    At any rate, even if one uses the Boattini et al study, they have roughly the same amount as the people in the Veneto. The inland areas in between have less, so I don't know how a source in Hallstatt would fit those facts.
    Actually that's why I came up with this in the first place, because it fits so well. There were Hallstatt centres, in Veneto even more so and with proven links to Thraco-Cimmerian, Eastern Hallstatt and Basarabi, the main cultural formations I think brought much of the early E-V13 to the more Western parts of Europe. This would fit well with the Sardinian E-V13 clades too, which look both older, but also Hallstatt Iron Age and with links to the West.

    If you look at a good Hallstatt map, you can see the Hallstatt-related cultures in Northern Italy:

    https://live.staticflickr.com/331/19...fd3fb6fa_b.jpg

    Also note that the Ligurians are supposed to have been moving more to the South and the coast, because of the Celtic pressure from the North. Which means their original home might have been even closer to Hallstatt related formations.

    As for descent from Gauls, that's another discussion altogether. The people of Liguria have been described as "Celt-Ligurians" for a reason, although I think the term "Gallic-Ligurians" might be more appropriate. In any event, I don't think anyone knows how many "Gauls" actually moved into Liguria from the direction of France, or when precisely it happened, or whether they were substantially different genetically from the "Ligurians" already inhabiting the area. If I had to speculate, I would say that the people in both areas were a combination of Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age peoples.
    Honestly I don't believe in a lot of continuity anywhere. Even Sardinians have newer influences, but with their more Neolithic-Copper Age ancestry in the region they are truly exceptional.

    I don’t believe that is at all the conclusion that should be drawn, or that was drawn, for that matter, in the Vitali paper. The researchers are looking at the samples in the context of the material culture and burial customs found at each site to determine how many of the people are *local* versus how many of them are migrants from other areas. In their words, “ In Negringen, no observable changes occurred during the use of the cemetery, while in Monte Bibele new burial customs appear, which point to transalpine contacts. If the Celtic objects were introduced by newcomers, this should be revealed by the strontium isotope analysis.” What they found is that about 20% of the people buried in Monte Bibele were non local.
    I think that later Celtic groups moved into Ligurian territory from the North is without doubt, the only question which remains is who and what were the Ligurians before and how much of them did persist. And for the debate in question: Were they rich in E-V13. I'd say based on what I already knew and you added, its a distinct possibility that the Ligurian ethnicity is responsible for a fairly high level of E-V13 in the modern local population. But its mere speculation at this point, without a lot of modern, high resolution terminal clades and ancient DNA at hand.

    Also, the researchers found that “In Monte Bibele, two warriors changed their residency during childhood (graves 35 and 107) and three have Srisotope ratios within the local range (graves 42, 59 and 151).Overall, warriors do not seem to be more often of non-local origin than males buried without weaponry."
    By the way, I have some concrete evidence of how E-V13 could have spread from Basarabi elite warriors to Eastern Hallstatt to Western Hallstatt and from there as minority element into Celts. Its in any case a proven fact that people, especially elite men and women, did migrate from one of these groups to the next and the normal direction of the migration was always East -> West, rarely in the opposite direction in the Early and Hallstatt Iron Age.

    Sometimes it seems as if every time someone puts a spade in the ground in eastern Liguria or northwest Tuscany another one of these monoliths, or parts of it, are discovered. My uncle used to use one of the heads as a doorstop. :)
    Well, that's a very personal contact to prehistory ;)
    The stelae somewhat resemble the very early steppe-related influences which made it even down to Italy Jean Manco mentioned in her book. Are they identical, from the same tradition?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm probably not aware of all the studies available on the subject and its quite possible that different samples yield different frequencies. However, I found it odd because the region has no real strong Greek colonisation history, Etruscans seem to have largely lacked E-V13 and even the Germanic settlement wasn't stronger there than in some other regions, which have no more E-V13. I look at it as yet another case study and try to understand whats real and how to explain it.



    Actually that's why I came up with this in the first place, because it fits so well. There were Hallstatt centres, in Veneto even more so and with proven links to Thraco-Cimmerian, Eastern Hallstatt and Basarabi, the main cultural formations I think brought much of the early E-V13 to the more Western parts of Europe. This would fit well with the Sardinian E-V13 clades too, which look both older, but also Hallstatt Iron Age and with links to the West.

    If you look at a good Hallstatt map, you can see the Hallstatt-related cultures in Northern Italy:

    https://live.staticflickr.com/331/19...fd3fb6fa_b.jpg

    Also note that the Ligurians are supposed to have been moving more to the South and the coast, because of the Celtic pressure from the North. Which means their original home might have been even closer to Hallstatt related formations.



    Honestly I don't believe in a lot of continuity anywhere. Even Sardinians have newer influences, but with their more Neolithic-Copper Age ancestry in the region they are truly exceptional.



    I think that later Celtic groups moved into Ligurian territory from the North is without doubt, the only question which remains is who and what were the Ligurians before and how much of them did persist. And for the debate in question: Were they rich in E-V13. I'd say based on what I already knew and you added, its a distinct possibility that the Ligurian ethnicity is responsible for a fairly high level of E-V13 in the modern local population. But its mere speculation at this point, without a lot of modern, high resolution terminal clades and ancient DNA at hand.



    By the way, I have some concrete evidence of how E-V13 could have spread from Basarabi elite warriors to Eastern Hallstatt to Western Hallstatt and from there as minority element into Celts. Its in any case a proven fact that people, especially elite men and women, did migrate from one of these groups to the next and the normal direction of the migration was always East -> West, rarely in the opposite direction in the Early and Hallstatt Iron Age.



    Well, that's a very personal contact to prehistory ;)
    The stelae somewhat resemble the very early steppe-related influences which made it even down to Italy Jean Manco mentioned in her book. Are they identical, from the same tradition?
    Correction, it's great-uncle, and he had no idea they were so old and valuable to archaeologists; at most, people connected them to the idols which the priests were still smashing in the 400s.

    Yes, I discussed this with Jean back on the old dna forums.
    Anyway, there are studies on the anthropomorphic stelae. As always, opinions differ.

    Some, like Jean, see their origin on the Ukrainian steppe.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_stelae

    Others disagree.
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...4A04EF72A448D3


    Imo the concept is probably older than the steppe people. The first ones, imo, might have been as old as the monoliths at Gobekli Tepe, and the concept might have moved over the Caucasus and into the steppe rather than originating on the steppe, although I don't know how either could be proved.

    Gobekli Tepe


    Lunigiana:


    Sometimes they've just been incorporated into the houses and walls on the street:


    The oldest date to the end of the 4th millennium BCE apparently, all the way to the 6th century BCE. They're found in the Alps, as well, dating to the Copper Age.

    There are two museums full of them, one in Pontremoli and one in La Speziz.

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    I believe that the main reason is due to the many centuries of commercial relations between Venice, Genoa with Constantinople and the Balkans, so not only the period of Byzantine domination in Italy, I remember that the Genoese lived in a large neighborhood called Pera in Constantinople and that of interchange with the city and the surrounding territories were remarkable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    I believe that the main reason is due to the many centuries of commercial relations between Venice, Genoa with Constantinople and the Balkans, so not only the period of Byzantine domination in Italy, I remember that the Genoese lived in a large neighborhood called Pera in Constantinople and that of interchange with the city and the surrounding territories were remarkable.
    Probably not the main reason, imo, but probably "a" reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Probably not the main reason, imo, but probably "a" reason.
    Yes, it could contribute, but can't be the main explanation. Because it needs to be considered which percentage of E-V13 other people got at that time. No small influx can explain something like 10 percent E-V13, because on the lowest level, this would mean, usually, about one quarter of the total paternal population coming from the same source. If that would be the case and its not the LBA-EIA or Hallstatt, there should be other haplogroups accompanying that influx. On the other hand, any early influx from Channelled Ware-South Eastern Urnfield groups, Thraco-Cimmerian, Eastern Hallstatt-Basarabi, could possibly be much smaller, since the E-V13 frequency was much higher in them and multiple founder effects could have taken place especially in the Iron Age. The later the appearance, the bigger the replacement level of the incoming migrants.

    That's also why E-V13 in Greeks is so important. If it came early from groups which might have been 70-100 percent E-V13, like Belegis II-Gava and Psenichevo, it doesn't mean that much. But coming from Vlachs, Albanians and Slavs, which all had a much lower frequency, it would mean later near total replacement of the old Greeks. Obviously its not exclusive, but whether the 10-35 % in different Greek regions can be explained at least in part by early migrations makes a huge difference already. And it makes the appearance in Southern Italy in particular easier to explain.

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