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Thread: E-V13 in Northern Italy

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, it could contribute, but can't be the main explanation. Because it needs to be considered which percentage of E-V13 other people got at that time. No small influx can explain something like 10 percent E-V13, because on the lowest level, this would mean, usually, about one quarter of the total paternal population coming from the same source. If that would be the case and its not the LBA-EIA or Hallstatt, there should be other haplogroups accompanying that influx. On the other hand, any early influx from Channelled Ware-South Eastern Urnfield groups, Thraco-Cimmerian, Eastern Hallstatt-Basarabi, could possibly be much smaller, since the E-V13 frequency was much higher in them and multiple founder effects could have taken place especially in the Iron Age. The later the appearance, the bigger the replacement level of the incoming migrants.
    That's also why E-V13 in Greeks is so important. If it came early from groups which might have been 70-100 percent E-V13, like Belegis II-Gava and Psenichevo, it doesn't mean that much. But coming from Vlachs, Albanians and Slavs, which all had a much lower frequency, it would mean later near total replacement of the old Greeks. Obviously its not exclusive, but whether the 10-35 % in different Greek regions can be explained at least in part by early migrations makes a huge difference already. And it makes the appearance in Southern Italy in particular easier to explain.
    This doesnt add up. Basarabi culture affecting ancient greece at such a distance away? Especially considering Romanians have super low v13 today. V13 in greece can only be explained by dorians and illyrians, thracians had very little impact

    The dorian invasion precedes ancient greeks moving to south italy by a couple hundred years so that would explain v13 in south italy. Anyway without ancient dna we can only speculate

    Basarabi culture was related to the hallstatt culture, they were celtic people which had very little or nothing to do with v13 and everything to do with west european r1b -

    "The examined individuals of the Hallstatt culture and La Tène culture displayed genetic continuity with the earlier Bell Beaker culture, and carried about 50% steppe-related ancestry." There is very little bell beaker r1b in south europe, the hallstatt people were wiped out by newcomers or by natives already there when they attempted to expand

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    Romanians have no super low E-V13, but what's more, it wasn't Basarabi, but rather its predecessor, Belegis II-Gáva and later Thracians (Psenichevo) which influenced Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Romanians have no super low E-V13, but what's more, it wasn't Basarabi, but rather its predecessor, Belegis II-G�va and later Thracians (Psenichevo) which influenced Greeks.
    From studies ive seen on romanians they always seem to mention below 10% v13 and without deep testing whos to say these arent related to romans since romanians also carry some j2a and r1b.

    If thracians descended from hallstatt then they should have high bell beaker r1b and low v13 - ive never read much thracian influence on ancient greece unless the dorians were thracian but regionally that seems unlikely

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    From studies ive seen on romanians they always seem to mention below 10% v13 and without deep testing whos to say these arent related to romans since romanians also carry some j2a and r1b.
    If thracians decended from hallstatt then they should have high bell beaker r1b and low v13 - ive never read much thracian influence on ancient greece unless the dorians were thracian but regionally that seems unlikely
    Compare with my recent post here on E-V13 frequencies:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Maps-and-Data

    Its work in progress, but you get an impression.

    And no, Daco-Thracians didn't descent from Hallstatt, you got that wrong. They influenced Hallstatt, primarily via the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi, which brought Hallstatt, especially Eastern Hallstatt up. You can find a lot of Basarabi in Eastern Hallstatt groups like Frög and even down to Italy. So they came on top of Bell Beaker groups in the Danubian-Alpine area, until La Tene Celts turned the tide again. Eastern Hallstatt and Pannonia was a mixed zone through which E-V13 spread to the West.
    The centre of Daco-Thracian ethnicity was of course further East, Eastern Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Transcarpathia, Moldova, Serbia largely, Macedonia in part, Bulgaria etc.
    You have to keep in mind that the story didn't end there, but many other people came in and changed the ratios and frequencies later, Slavs in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post

    And no, Daco-Thracians didn't descent from Hallstatt, you got that wrong. They influenced Hallstatt, primarily via the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi,
    It is contested, but nonetheless it should be kept in mind that serious scholars of Dacian like Georgiev argued that "Daco-Mysian" and Thracian are different branches quite far apart.

    In the Iliad, Mysians and Thracians are already two different entities, as different as Phrygians & Thracians.

    Georgiev believed the Moesians of the Balkans and the Mysians of Anatolia were genetically related, so this is relevant in reconstructing a phylogeny.


    Katicic here summarises some of his arguments, namely that in Thracian there was consonant shift, in "Daco-Mysian" there was not, and that they had differnt toponymy.

    He argues that there was at one point a Daco-Mysian invasion of Thracian territories which with time were forgotten, but his argument that Thracian was an older layer is relevant to this discussion.

    He also specifies that the boundary that separated these two was not the Danube but the Haemus mountains:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    It is contested, but nonetheless it should be kept in mind that serious scholars of Dacian like Georgiev argued that "Daco-Mysian" and Thracian are different branches quite far apart.

    In the Iliad, Mysians and Thracians are already two different entities, as different as Phrygians & Thracians.

    Georgiev believed the Moesians of the Balkans and the Mysians of Anatolia were genetically related, so this is relevant in reconstructing a phylogeny.


    Katicic here summarises some of his arguments, namely that in Thracian there was consonant shift, in "Daco-Mysian" there was not, and that they had differnt toponymy.

    He argues that there was at one point a Daco-Mysian invasion of Thracian territories which with time were forgotten, but his argument that Thracian was an older layer is relevant to this discussion.

    He also specifies that the boundary that separated these two was not the Danube but the Haemus mountains:
    If this argument that there was a "Daco-Mysian" invasion of Thrace at some point is accurate, is it possible this is the same period in which Mysians also made it to Anatolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If this argument that there was a "Daco-Mysian" invasion of Thrace at some point is accurate, is it possible this is the same period in which Mysians also made it to Anatolia?
    Its not exactly the same time, but some groups went quickly to Anatolia. The crucial aspects being:
    - Fluted/Channelled Ware horizon and Knobbed Ware in Bulgaria and Anatolia
    - Origin of Psenichevo and its close relationship to the (Daco-Mysian) Basarabi.

    They being all interconnected and to close, going forth and back, for being completely different people. The invasion was there in any case and I think it brought Thracian language, but if it did not, there was still an invasion of a related people and when else should the ancestors of Psenichevo E-V13 Thracians coming in?

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    About the Ligurians, I found this to be interesting:
    In the early Iron Age, the
    probable tomb of the chariot of Rocca delle Fene shows a
    typical ritual area Hallstatt (Egg, Pare 1998), but also
    widely available starting from VII century BC in
    villanovian central Italy, and in Golasecca (Camerin,
    1998). The presence of an “antennas” type sword, clearly
    from transalpine area, suggests more of a warrior coming
    from Hallstatt area. The tomb is almost contemporary of
    the necropolis of Albenga and the most intense period of
    the necropolis of Chiavari. This could be explained by the
    coming and death in Liguria coming from a warrior chief
    from Alpine area, which could be supported by the
    presence of depictions of “antennas” type swords on
    some of statue stelae of eastern Liguria, a case that would
    not insulated. The reasons for this are, however, came
    subject to different interpretations: military expedition,
    the contraction of marriage, mercenary.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...AGE_NECROPOLIS

    So they had elite warriors, some of which came probably directly from the alpine or transalpine area of Hallstatt. This is quite important because its got clear that the Eastern Hallstatt sphere being heavily influenced by Basarabi, especially the Frög and Kalenderberg group, but even beyond, down into Baden-Wuerttemberg, Bavaria and in Italy at strong influences to the Veneti.
    Would be interesting to know how common such warrior graves and weapons were in other parts of Northern Italy.

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    I don't know if Hallstadt people went to Liguria, but most scholars see a movement of La Tene people into Liguria in the first century BCE. I already mentioned the changes to the Statue Stele of La Spezia and the Lunigiana.

    The daggers are an addition to the statue stele.




    This is supposedly a Hallstatt dagger, but archaeologists have talked about a first millennium BC movement into Liguria of Celtic tribes, hence the term Celt-Ligurian for the Iron Age people.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know if Hallstadt people went to Liguria, but most scholars see a movement of La Tene people into Liguria in the first century BCE. I already mentioned the changes to the Statue Stele of La Spezia and the Lunigiana.

    The daggers are an addition to the statue stele.

    This is supposedly a Hallstatt dagger, but archaeologists have talked about a first millennium BC movement into Liguria of Celtic tribes, hence the term Celt-Ligurian for the Iron Age people.
    The linked article and some other evidence makes quite clear to me that before La Tene, people from Hallstatt, especially elite warriors came into Liguria. Whether they were already Celts or other people is unknown and the genetic impact of this can't be even estimated from these individuals here and there. Could have been more or just exceptional.

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    I support a Northern Italian origin for the plurality of E-V13 in modern Italy.
    E-V13 became a minor line (~5%) with Northern Italian migration in central Italy during and after the Middle Ages.

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    Also related to the Ligurians, the Genuese, as well as the Phocaens (Doric background), all possibly related to higher E-V13 frequencies, is Corsica, especially the area around Aléria, which shows the highest E-V13 frequency in this region of the island:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00641.g001.jpg

    In the associated paper, they speculate about:
    Haplogroup E, mainly represented by E1b1b1a1b1a-V13, displayed intermediate frequencies in Corsica compared to Tuscany and Provence. E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 was thought to have initiated a pan-Mediterranean expansion 7,000 years ago starting from the Balkans [52] and its dispersal to the northern shore of the Mediterranean basin is consistent with the Greek Anatolian expansion to the western Mediterranean [22], characteristic of the region surrounding Alaria, and consistent with the TMRCA estimated in Corsica for this haplogroup. A few E1b1a-V38 chromosomes are also observed in the same regions as V13.
    But this is kind of outdated. Like they also associate Germanic R-U106 with:
    Differential distribution of R1b-U152 and R1b-U106 haplogroups and their respective TMRCA seem to coincide with the two groups of Menhir-statue mostly erected during the Bronze Age. The northern Menhir-statue group has slim figures and prominent ears, whereas in the larger Menhir-statue group, located south of the Ajaccio-Solenzara line, they are rougher and display warrior attributes [4,5,61].
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6070208/

    But beside these three options:
    Ligurians, Phocaeans or Genuese settlement (like in Sardinia), are there any other options to explain that clear pattern of a concentration in and around Aléria. Looking at the map, the closest correlation haplogroup is definitely R-U106, which would suggest a migration with Germanics:

    Corsica remained under Roman rule until its conquest by the Vandals in 430 CE. It was recovered by the Byzantine Empire in 534, adding a late-ancient Greek influence.
    The Lombards, who had made themselves masters of the war- and famine-shattered Italian Peninsula, conquered the island in c. 725. The Lombard supremacy on the island was short lived. In 774, the Frankish king Charlemagne conquered Corsica as he moved to subdue the Lombards and restore the Western Empire.
    Corsica successively was part of the Republic of Genoa for five centuries. Despite take-overs by Aragon between 1296–1434 and France between 1553 and 1559, Corsica would remain under Genoese control until the Corsican Republic of 1755 and under partial control until its purchase by France in 1768.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Corsica

    Any other suggesions welcomed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Also related to the Ligurians, the Genuese, as well as the Phocaens (Doric background), all possibly related to higher E-V13 frequencies, is Corsica, especially the area around Al�ria, which shows the highest E-V13 frequency in this region of the island:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00641.g001.jpg

    In the associated paper, they speculate about:


    But this is kind of outdated. Like they also associate Germanic R-U106 with:


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6070208/

    But beside these three options:
    Ligurians, Phocaeans or Genuese settlement (like in Sardinia), are there any other options to explain that clear pattern of a concentration in and around Al�ria. Looking at the map, the closest correlation haplogroup is definitely R-U106, which would suggest a migration with Germanics:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Corsica

    Any other suggesions welcomed.


    Di Cristofaro's is a rather disappointing paper.

    The problem with these percentages of uniparental markers is what geographic areas they come from, whether all individuals, take the case of E-V13 in Liguria, come from the same place, or come from different areas of Liguria that all keeps significative rates of E-V13. Liguria has a particular territory (and this is also true for Corsica), with a lot of isolated villages with you can assume a lot of inbreeding in the past. Because it is clear that in some cases today's rates may be due to founder effects, and not reflecting past rates. So as usual, then trying to attribute today's E-V13 to ethnic groups of the past risks becoming the usual game for its own sake. I don't know if I have been clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Di Cristofaro's is a rather disappointing paper.

    The problem with these percentages of uniparental markers is what geographic areas they come from, whether all individuals, take the case of E-V13 in Liguria, come from the same place, or come from different areas of Liguria that all keeps significative rates of E-V13. Liguria has a particular territory (and this is also true for Corsica), with a lot of isolated villages with you can assume a lot of inbreeding in the past. Because it is clear that in some cases today's rates may be due to founder effects, and not reflecting past rates. So as usual, then trying to attribute today's E-V13 to ethnic groups of the past risks becoming the usual game for its own sake. I don't know if I have been clear.
    Perfectly clear. The only thing I would add is that if you take samples from a lot of those villages and areas, it will even out and unlikely being just a recent founder effect. But with small sample sizes, we never know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Perfectly clear. The only thing I would add is that if you take samples from a lot of those villages and areas, it will even out and unlikely being just a recent founder effect. But with small sample sizes, we never know.
    I really don't know where the samples came from, that's why I was also asking myself. Even near Genoa there are valleys with villages that have been isolated for centuries. Maybe Angela knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I really don't know where the samples came from, that's why I was also asking myself. Even near Genoa there are valleys with villages that have been isolated for centuries. Maybe Angela knows.
    If you look at the Corsican paper, it has for some sites less than 5 samples. Obviously that's not nearly enough to use it for percentages. Its probably ok for ancient DNA, if there just isn't more available, but for moderns, its a really small sample size. Even for a rather small island like Corsica.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6070208/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If you look at the Corsican paper, it has for some sites less than 5 samples. Obviously that's not nearly enough to use it for percentages. Its probably ok for ancient DNA, if there just isn't more available, but for moderns, its a really small sample size. Even for a rather small island like Corsica.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6070208/

    I don't know if the set of Corsican samples, that has been released and you can download, comes from this study, but it is a really nice set, out of 16 individuals, 4 do not seem to be fully Corsican, with at least one ending up among the Germans and French, and three others far north of what looks like the Corsican cluster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I support a Northern Italian origin for the plurality of E-V13 in modern Italy.
    E-V13 became a minor line (~5%) with Northern Italian migration in central Italy during and after the Middle Ages.
    https://beyondforeignness.org/8011

    There is more E-V22 in north italy than E-V13
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    https://beyondforeignness.org/8011
    There is more E-V22 in north italy than E-V13
    Strange idea, where do you got it from? The link doesn't provide any information on that.

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    I am guessing that slavery payed as much a role in dispersing E-v13 as colonization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    I am guessing that slavery payed as much a role in dispersing E-v13 as colonization.
    In some regions it might have, as Thracian slaves, mercenaries, artisans and traders being widespread. But I don't think that this is the main source anywhere, because of the specific concentrations. We know however that just like Levantine admixture, some Thracian admixture came with slaves, the most prominent examples being the two leaders of the biggest slave rebellions in the Servile Wars, one being Thracian (Spartacus), the other Syrian (Eunus):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servile_Wars

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    Have I ever seen so much speculation based on absolutely no foundation? If I have, it's close.

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    E-V13 seems to very balkan like

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