E-V13 in Northern Italy

Riverman

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I did take a look into the y-haplogroup frequencies in Italy and especially Northern Italy, to get a better impression of its distribution and possible association with prehistorical and historical populations. Especially Northern Italy is highly interesting becaue a strong Greco-Balkan influence seems to be less likely there to serve as a possible explanation that easily.

Are there any studies and numbers on E-V13 specifically, so breaking E1b1b further down? Especially Liguria seems to be highly interesting, having a frequency as high as Southern Italians and a different background story from other Italian regions.

Compare with what Maciamo compiled:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#maps
 
I did take a look into the y-haplogroup frequencies in Italy and especially Northern Italy, to get a better impression of its distribution and possible association with prehistorical and historical populations. Especially Northern Italy is highly interesting becaue a strong Greco-Balkan influence seems to be less likely there to serve as a possible explanation that easily.

Are there any studies and numbers on E-V13 specifically, so breaking E1b1b further down? Especially Liguria seems to be highly interesting, having a frequency as high as Southern Italians and a different background story from other Italian regions.

Compare with what Maciamo compiled:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#maps


also beside liguria in :unsure:
bergamo plain 11%
bergamo valley 7%


https://i.imgur.com/9TEafCM.png

according to this paper

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top

p.s
i truly believe some of it might be related to lombards but afcorse not all ...
 
Garibaldi's parents were Ligurian and he had haplogroup E1b as did the great painter Caravaggio (Michelangelo Merisi) from the Bergamo area.
 
Garibaldi's parents were Ligurian and he had haplogroup E1b as did the great painter Caravaggio (Michelangelo Merisi) from the Bergamo area.



yes he was likely e-v13
if you have a results of his male relative ?
i will put him in famous e1b1b1


Giuseppe_Garibaldi_%281866%29.jpg
 
Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?
 
Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?

Neighboring french riviera lands like city of Marseilles was a ancient Greek trading port/lands .........

the area up to Monaco in France was still Italian lands when Italy formed in 1860......it was traded to france some time later

City of Nice was Italian ......Garibaldi was born in Nice
 
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Neighboring french riviera lands like city of Marseilles was a ancient Greek trading port/lands .........the area up to Monaco in France was still Italian lands when Italy formed in 1860......it was traded to france some time later

City of Nice was Italian ......Garibaldi was born in Nice

Yes. He was born in Nice.
Giuseppe Garibaldi's father Domenico came from Chiavari in eastern Liguria while his mother Rosa came from Loano north of Alassio in western Liguria.
 
yes he was likely e-v13
if you have a results of his male relative ?
i will put him in famous e1b1b1

There is a Garibaldi sample on FTDNA from the district of Genua, a neighbouring place to Chiavari, so most likely the same lineage and he is E-V13, but no deeper subclade known, because he just tested y37 unfortunately.

Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?

While some Greek lineages could be coming from Greeks, I don't think the majority can be explained that way, because Greeks themselves rarely have a much higher percentage, which means in the most optimistic scenario, they all should be Greek descendents, which is just not a viable scenario.
Just like some Sea Peoples and Hallstatt people, there were horned hats and helmets among them. They might have been from an earlier Iron Age migration of Indoeuropeans related to the Celtic-Pannonian transitional groups in the Alpine Hallstatt area - just a suggestion from me, I don't really know.
 
yes he was likely e-v13
if you have a results of his male relative ?
i will put him in famous e1b1b1


It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event


Isn't supposed in Ligurian coast it's because Greek colonization?

In modern-day Liguria there was no Greek colonization. There are evidences that lead to suppose that there were Greek presences among the Ligurians (as there were without doubt among the Etruscans).
 
It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event




In modern-day Liguria there was no Greek colonization. There are evidences that lead to suppose that there were Greek presences among the Ligurians (as there were without doubt among the Etruscans).


Thats why i asked
Him :unsure:
I need more proof
I am not in a rush to put him in the famous
E1b1b1 untill there is more proof
 
On the other hand
A descendents of thomas third lord berkely
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_de_Berkeley,_3rd_Baron_Berkeley
Tested and confirmed e-m81
I spoke with british project adminstrator
And he confirmed that to me...
Another relative on male line of this berkeley
Took the big y500 and turned a derived branch of e-m81 more specifically terminal SNP
of E-BY9750. :cool-v:
Thomas berkeley was marshal of the english
Forces in france in the year 1340... ( during 100 years war between france and england):cool-v:

P.s
The big y results need to be added to there project soon
He is a descendant of Sir Maurice de Berkeley (1298-1347), younger brother of Thomas, 3rd Lord Berkeley.
 
On the other hand
A descendents of thomas third lord berkely
Tested and confirmed e-m81
I spoke with british project adminstrator
And he confirmed that to me...
Another relative on male line of this berkeley
Took the big y500 and turned a derived branch of e-m81
Thomas berkeley was marshal of the english
Forces in france in the year 1340... ( during 100 years war between france and england)

A Berber marker in England? Well, that's not impossible.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_de_Berkeley,_3rd_Baron_Berkeley
 
It's a speculation based on someone with surname Garibaldi on FTDNA. "GioBatta Garibaldi b ca 1807 d 1866 Nascio, Liguria". It is not certain he was related to Giuseppe Garibaldi. In fact, he was born in the same years as Garibaldi. So, if they were related, they must have had some more remote ancestors in common, if there was not a non-paternity event (NPE). At this time, we cannot know for sure.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event

Interesting. Because these data isn't the same as from the sample I had in mind, which mentioned Frisolino. So either he wrote something different elsewhere, or its another Garibaldi with E-V13. The one I did mention has an ancestor just about 10 km from where Garibaldis paternal ancestors came from. If that's true they would be 3 Garibaldis from the same area of about 10-20 km apart, of which two are proven E-V13 carriers. If they are not the same people, this increases the chances.
 
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There is an old analysis of the "E" clades in Italy based on Boattini and some prior papers.

The averages for E-V13:
No. of Samples: 69
% Italy as a whole: 7.81

9.3 (Northwestern Italy: Cuneo, Piemonte, Savona and Genova, Liguria, Como and Brescia, Lombardia)
11.0 (Northeastern Italy: Vicenza, Treviso, Aviano)
6.9 (Emilia Romagna: Bologna)
4.9 (Toscana: Massa/La Spezia, Pistoia, Grosseto/Siena)
6.5 (Central Italy: Marche, Umbria and Lazio, i.e. Macerata, Foligno, Terni)
10.6 (Southern Italy including Messina in Sicilia)
7.1 (Sicily: Agrigento, Catania, Siracusa_
2.4 Sardegna


The entire discussion and breakdown can be found here. The analysis is dated, but the data is clear.
Distribution of E1b1b subclades in Italy (Boattini et al.) (eupedia.com)

In fact, I think I'll just add the data for ease of reference:

North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont,one E-V13 (3.5%).

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, seven E-V13 (14%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy,four E-V13 (9.5%) and one E-M78 (2.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, two E-V13 (5%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, five E-V13 (12.5%).

In Treviso, central-east Venetotwo E-V13 (6.5%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, two E-V13 (7%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, no E1b1b (0%) was found out of 24 samples.

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, only one E-V13 (7.5%) sample was found out of 13 samples.

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, five E-V13 (6%).

In Foligno, central-east Umbria two E-V13 (5.5%).

In Macerata, central-east Marche, three E-V13 (7.5%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, E-V13 (13%).

In Campobasso, Molise, two E-V13 (7%).

In Benevento, Campania,three E-V13 (8.5%).

In Matera, Basilicata,two E-V13 (8%).

In Lecce, Apulia, 6 E-V13 (15.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, four E-V13 (10.5%).

In Catania, three E-V13 (5%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, three E-V13 (6%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, four E-V13 (9.5%).

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, only one E-V13 (2.5%) sample was found out of 40 samples.

To me, in almost all cases it looks like movements from coastal areas, where Greek settlement and trading centers might have been the cause.

I know that there has also always been the feeling that some came directly from places like Albania and Croatia, and it's possible, although I don't know why the sample from the Marche would be relatively low in that case. Perhaps it's because of low sample sizes.

Both sources are possible.

There's also the old Cruciani et al data, which everyone still uses. It's particularly interesting because it has data from all over Europe. Czechia and Slovakia, Hungary, Moldovia and Ukraine have interestingly high numbers.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/6/1300/984002
 
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Thanks a lot for the summary. Its interesting how small sample sizes can distort things. Like if looking at different samples from many of the regions covered, they deviate significantly sometimes.

I think its nearly impossible for all the Italian E-V13, and its a significant portion of the total population, to stem from Greeks or even the Adriatic coast and Balkans. Its possible for Southern Italy, but needs to proven, but for Northern Italy at least a direct pathway is nearly impossible for reaching those numbers. It think that while Celts seem to have received a minor E-V13 injection from Eastern Hallstatt, similar to Slavs, their expanson overall rather reduced the frequency. Therefore its very interesting that exactly the people, namely the Ligurians, which were presumably non-Celtic, might have harboured a higher frequency of it than the surrounding Celtic and Italic tribes. Could be a coincidence because of later migrations, like Greeks and Germanics in particular, but that rather makes no sense, because the Ligurian area being not more influenced by those than other areas of Northern Italy as far as I know.
But probably there is a detail I'm missing.
 
Thanks a lot for the summary. Its interesting how small sample sizes can distort things. Like if looking at different samples from many of the regions covered, they deviate significantly sometimes.

I think its nearly impossible for all the Italian E-V13, and its a significant portion of the total population, to stem from Greeks or even the Adriatic coast and Balkans. Its possible for Southern Italy, but needs to proven, but for Northern Italy at least a direct pathway is nearly impossible for reaching those numbers. It think that while Celts seem to have received a minor E-V13 injection from Eastern Hallstatt, similar to Slavs, their expanson overall rather reduced the frequency. Therefore its very interesting that exactly the people, namely the Ligurians, which were presumably non-Celtic, might have harboured a higher frequency of it than the surrounding Celtic and Italic tribes. Could be a coincidence because of later migrations, like Greeks and Germanics in particular, but that rather makes no sense, because the Ligurian area being not more influenced by those than other areas of Northern Italy as far as I know.
But probably there is a detail I'm missing.

On one thing you're completely incorrect, I'm afraid. The people living in today's Liguria were known as Celt-Ligurians in the Iron Age, so it would be inaccurate to say they were non-Celtic.
Kingdoms of the Ligures - Ligurians (historyfiles.co.uk)

However, I don't think it's very probable that they got all that E-V13 from the Celts, since they had so much less of it.

That's different than saying they couldn't have gotten some of it from France, however, given that the Greeks had a large colony near modern Marseilles, and other satellite ones. The overall percentage of E-V13 is about 4% in Provence, for what it's worth, but coastal areas could be higher.
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean | BMC Ecology and Evolution | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

Other than movement from Provence over into Liguria, there is also Luni to consider. It was a large and very cosmopolitan place with a lot of Greek influence, and when it was destroyed finally, the people scattered; some into the foothills of the mountains, some into the Magra Valley, and some, undoubtedly, along the coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luni,_Italy

Then there are the Byzantines.
A town very close to where my mother was born was built on the foundations of a Byzantine castrum. Of course, they lasted for a much shorter period in the north than in the south.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Exarchate_of_Ravenna

1200px-Alboin's_Italy-it.svg.png


Finally, there are whatever men were incorporated from Genoa's possessions in and around Greece. In the map the two darker colors are the only ones which were actually occupied; the rest are areas of commercial interest. I doubt this had a large influence, but I mention it for completeness.
GenoeseCommercialEmpire.jpg
GenoeseCommercialEmpire.png


GenoeseCommercialEmpire.png


The Veneto has much the same history. Lots of Greek trading contacts, as well as movement perhaps from some parts of the Balkans, the Byzantines, and Venice's overlordship of many parts of the Balkans and Greece.
7d98ac9a021ffba48e3c2026b885d6b7.png


Finally, the Boattini study doesn't have very many samples, it's true, but the same cannot be said of the Cruciani et al study to which I linked above. Those numbers might be much more in line with reality imo.

For those who are interested, getting very derived subclades of the E-V13 in Italy and comparing them to those in the Balkans and Italy would be very helpful, of course.
 
On one thing you're completely incorrect, I'm afraid. The people living in today's Liguria were known as Celt-Ligurians in the Iron Age, so it would be inaccurate to say they were non-Celtic.

They were most likely similar to the Celti-Iberians, Noric and various Balkan tribes, being a fused hybrid tribe of some sort, but the original Ligurians were rather no Celts. Its not even for sure they were Indoeuropean, but at they were no Celts in the narrower sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_(ancient_language)

Since they seem to have at least double to triple the usual E-V13 frequency of early Western Celts, it seems to me the logical conclusion that much of the E-V13 in the region, more so than in other Greek and trade influenced Northern Italian regions, can be attributed to these Ligurians. Of course, I wouldn't wonder about a little bit Celtic, more Greek and even more from Germanic, with some coming in later, like you described. But the bulk came more likely from the old Ligurians.
Unfortunately I know very little about the Ligurian area and whether or not it got heavily influenced by Hallstatt in general and had close ties to Eastern Hallstatt in particular.

Its kind of interesting that the core Hallstatt zones which were not completely Celtic in all likelihood all have still more E-V13 than the more classical Celtic areas, which got less of it, most likely transmitted from the other Hallstatt people for the most part. Italics, which is typical as well, seem to have gotten close to nothing as well for the same reason of E-V13 coming later to the West, with Thraco-Cimmerians, Hallstatt, Geto-Scythians and Greeks respectively.

The Ligurians were influenced by Hallstatt-related Golasecca culture and Greeks:
In the Iron Age the region is characterized by autonomous ethnic group, Ligurians. In the
early Iron Age (VIII-VI cent. BC) is surrounded by various cultural groups, Villanova and Golasecca, in the second Iron Age will
create, respectively, some of the pre-Roman peoples in the 'north-central Italy (the Etruscans) or will be the other substrate (Insubres
and Boi Celts). During these periods, the Ligurians in their community structures and funerary rituals, retain their identity, while
showing, depending on the era, influenced by these people, and the westerns Greeks, with which it interacted until the Romanization

https://www.researchgate.net/public...OD_GRAVES_OF_THE_LIGURIAN_IRON_AGE_NECROPOLIS
 
They were most likely similar to the Celti-Iberians, Noric and various Balkan tribes, being a fused hybrid tribe of some sort, but the original Ligurians were rather no Celts. Its not even for sure they were Indoeuropean, but at they were no Celts in the narrower sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_(ancient_language)

Since they seem to have at least double to triple the usual E-V13 frequency of early Western Celts, it seems to me the logical conclusion that much of the E-V13 in the region, more so than in other Greek and trade influenced Northern Italian regions, can be attributed to these Ligurians. Of course, I wouldn't wonder about a little bit Celtic, more Greek and even more from Germanic, with some coming in later, like you described. But the bulk came more likely from the old Ligurians.
Unfortunately I know very little about the Ligurian area and whether or not it got heavily influenced by Hallstatt in general and had close ties to Eastern Hallstatt in particular.

Its kind of interesting that the core Hallstatt zones which were not completely Celtic in all likelihood all have still more E-V13 than the more classical Celtic areas, which got less of it, most likely transmitted from the other Hallstatt people for the most part. Italics, which is typical as well, seem to have gotten close to nothing as well for the same reason of E-V13 coming later to the West, with Thraco-Cimmerians, Hallstatt, Geto-Scythians and Greeks respectively.

The Ligurians were influenced by Hallstatt-related Golasecca culture and Greeks:


https://www.researchgate.net/public...OD_GRAVES_OF_THE_LIGURIAN_IRON_AGE_NECROPOLIS

The amount of E-V13 in the Ligurians in comparison to other areas in Italy as well as in other parts of Europe very much depends on the study used. You can't just pick the one you like best.

At any rate, even if one uses the Boattini et al study, they have roughly the same amount as the people in the Veneto. The inland areas in between have less, so I don't know how a source in Hallstatt would fit those facts.

However, it's true that there's Hallstatt influence in Liguria and its hinterland.

I posted this information here on the site eight years ago.

Unfortunately, the books cited as sources are twelve years out of date.

Some members might be interested in some recently released research.
http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/La_Tene_culture

As the map reflects the situation in Italy, this paper in the compendium is informative, showing influence all the way to the Ligurian coast.
http://www.academia.edu/2198871/I_Celti_in_Italia


A paper in the compendium suggesting something less than mass movements of people.
http://www.academia.edu/3716151/Evid..._Bibele_Italy_


"On balance, I still think that the Celti paper and other papers in the compendium would support my interpretation that the La Tene and earlier Hallstatt influence in eastern Liguria is not significantly different from that in other areas of Italy that *are* included in the map. I found the paper which deals with the changes made to the statue stele to be particularly interesting. We may have to agree to disagree about this one.

As for descent from Gauls, that's another discussion altogether. The people of Liguria have been described as "Celt-Ligurians" for a reason, although I think the term "Gallic-Ligurians" might be more appropriate. In any event, I don't think anyone knows how many "Gauls" actually moved into Liguria from the direction of France, or when precisely it happened, or whether they were substantially different genetically from the "Ligurians" already inhabiting the area. If I had to speculate, I would say that the people in both areas were a combination of Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age peoples.

I don’t believe that is at all the conclusion that should be drawn, or that was drawn, for that matter, in the Vitali paper. The researchers are looking at the samples in the context of the material culture and burial customs found at each site to determine how many of the people are *local* versus how many of them are migrants from other areas. In their words, “ In Negringen, no observable changes occurred during the use of the cemetery, while in Monte Bibele new burial customs appear, which point to transalpine contacts. If the Celtic objects were introduced by newcomers, this should be revealed by the strontium isotope analysis.” What they found is that about 20% of the people buried in Monte Bibele were non local.

Also, the researchers found that “In Monte Bibele, two warriors changed their residency during childhood (graves 35 and 107) and three have Srisotope ratios within the local range (graves 42, 59 and 151).Overall, warriors do not seem to be more often of non-local origin than males buried without weaponry."

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28889-Map-of-Hallstatt-and-La-T%C3%A8ne-expansions

Sometimes it seems as if every time someone puts a spade in the ground in eastern Liguria or northwest Tuscany another one of these monoliths, or parts of it, are discovered. My uncle used to use one of the heads as a doorstop. :)

They are much older than the period under discussion. The hammers and daggers were added later. Recycling, as ever in archaeology, was popular.

statua-stele-pugnale-ok.jpg
 

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