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Thread: Ancient genomes from a rural site in Imperial Rome (1st–3rd cent. CE): a genetic jun

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    @kingjohn

    check the admixture of the lombards

    you will find they are more associated with east-germanic then with west-germanic


    slavic is only linked directly with the border area of Ukraine and Belarus .................all other slavic is linked with lingustic association and not genetic association
    Linguistically, the Lombards/Langobards may have started off North Germanic (Scandinavian) in speech but were West Germanic like Alemans and Bavarians when they reached Italy.

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    Very good point Angela. Did not know of the Lazaridis leak. Would love to see that page.

    The thing is, that Mordovians were/are not Slavic... And as you say given the historical context nowhere near Western Slavic region from where south Slavs descended on the Balkans.

    This might all be just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what the other samples hold.



    I personally already had distaste for the model the first time I saw it, but then I saw a Mordovian member on another forum and his critique of the model. This guy is one of the more active members on the Slavic thread, from Russia. And his critique was in line with mine. So even accounting for any bias I might hold, my point is not stemming out of that bias.

    Alas, you can try it with K13 as well, the results are similar. When you force a two pop model on a population, the calculator will do the best it can. When the two populations are not enough to account for the nuances, you get nonsensical answers such as some French being >50% early Slavic.
    Target: French_Seine-Maritime
    Distance: 4.5734% / 0.04573431 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    73.8 CZE_Early_Slav
    26.2 BGR_IA


    Target: French_Provence
    Distance: 3.7593% / 0.03759307 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    50.0 BGR_IA
    50.0 CZE_Early_Slav


    Target: French_Pas-de-Calais
    Distance: 4.9056% / 0.04905648 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    72.2 CZE_Early_Slav
    27.8 BGR_IA


    Target: French_Paris
    Distance: 4.9416% / 0.04941613 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    65.8 CZE_Early_Slav
    34.2 BGR_IA


    Target: French_Occitanie
    Distance: 4.9053% / 0.04905323 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    59.2 CZE_Early_Slav
    40.8 BGR_IA



    Target: French_Nord
    Distance: 4.3426% / 0.04342611 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    69.4 CZE_Early_Slav
    30.6 BGR_IA



    I hope and know that Lazaridis paper will be per usual of high standard, and his f-stats usually don't suffer from PCA weaknessess. Do you know when the paper comes out?
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    As you can see below the K13 results are very consistent with G25(from my previous post).



    K13 with Mordovins in place of Early Slavs from Moravia.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Linguistically, the Lombards/Langobards may have started off North Germanic (Scandinavian) in speech but were West Germanic like Alemans and Bavarians when they reached Italy.
    Longobards after moving from scania sweden where part of the vindili confederation

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post



    No matter how you look at it... the Danubian lime paper methodology is trash, what I said by taking one look at it. And I believe Pax also had some similar feelings without further specifying what at the time.

    https://imgur.com/a/jbYPD4H
    Very, very interesting since Calabria has plenty of Arbereshe which should have bumped its Savic component a bit. I totally agree with you that this methodology has something seriously wrong with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    No matter how you look at it... the Danubian lime paper methodology is trash, what I said by taking one look at it. And I believe Pax also had some similar feelings without further specifying what at the time.
    https://imgur.com/a/jbYPD4H
    Interesting
    Can you try to model aschenazi jews( moldovan jews) and cretans
    With this combination of
    iron age bulgaria+ early slav CZE ?
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting
    Can you try to model aschenazi jews( moldovan jews) and cretans
    With this combination of
    iron age bulgaria+ early slav CZE ?
    Sadly couldn't find the coordinates for Moldovan Jew.


    But for your enjoyment

    https://imgur.com/a/8SGIygh


    You could probably guess my train of thought (algorithm) slide to slide.

    This is after cleaning up the model, removing the marginally improving populations and also removing any modern populations.
    I can explain the alorithm I used to come to this final table but doubt anyone much cares.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Sadly couldn't find the coordinates for Moldovan Jew.


    But for your enjoyment

    https://imgur.com/a/8SGIygh


    You could probably guess my train of thought (algorithm) slide to slide.

    This is after cleaning up the model, removing the marginally improving populations and also removing any modern populations.
    I can explain the alorithm I used to come to this final table but doubt anyone much cares.

    Basically you can mix and match any nationality as the source combination.

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    Thank-you. Couldn't have said it better.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Sadly couldn't find the coordinates for Moldovan Jew.


    But for your enjoyment

    https://imgur.com/a/8SGIygh


    You could probably guess my train of thought (algorithm) slide to slide.

    This is after cleaning up the model, removing the marginally improving populations and also removing any modern populations.
    I can explain the alorithm I used to come to this final table but doubt anyone much cares.


    Thanks kudos

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    this should be interesting paper

    Abstract #: 3776 EXPLORING THE GENETIC DIVERSITY OF MAGNA GRAECIA – THE CASE OF CAMPANIA
    Alissa Mittnik1,2, Alfredo Coppa3,4,5, Alessandra Sperduti6,7, Luca Bondioli6,8, MelaniaGigante8, Claudio Cavazzuti9,10, Alessandra Modi11, David Caramelli11, Ron Pinhasi12,David Reich13,2,14,151 Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138,USA2 Max Planck-Harvard Research Center for the Archaeoscience of the AncientMediterranean, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA and 07745 Jena, Germany3 Department of Environmental Biology, Sapienza University of Rome, 00185 Rome, Italy4 Department of Genetics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA5 Department of Evolutionary Anthropology, University of Vienna, 1090 Vienna, Austria6 Bioarchaeology Service, Museum of Civilization, 00144 Rome, Italy7 Department of Asia, Africa e Mediterraneo, University of Naples “L’Orientale”, 80121Naples, Italy8 Department of Cultural Heritage, University of Padua, 35139 Padua, Italy9 Department of History Cultures Civilizations, Alma Mater Studiorum - University ofBologna, 40124, Bologna, Italy10 Durham University – Department of Archaeology, Durham DH1 3LE, UK11 Department of Biology, University of Florence, 50122, Florence, Italy12 Department of Anthropology, University of Vienna, 1090 Vienna, Austria13 Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard Univeristy, Cambridge, MA02138, USA14 Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA15 Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, Cambridge, MA 02142, USAPage 1 of 2

    Starting in the 8th century BCE, coastal Campania in Southern Italy became a melting pot of various cultures and peoples when Etruscan and Greek colonizers joined local Italic tribes. By establishing cities and trade posts, the contact networks of Campania were further expanded across the Mediterranean and inland.We generated ancient genomes from Campania, spanning the 8th to 3rd century BCE,i.e. the Orientalizing, Archaic and Hellenistic-Roman period in this region. While most individuals can be attributed to a genetic ancestry that arose on the Italian mainland, we also discover descendants of migrants from the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean.Most notably, an individual dated to the 8th century at the first Greek settlement,Pithekoussai, a site that also yielded the earliest example of writing in the Euboean alphabet, was genetically of Aegean origin, and we find that this type of ancestry persisted at the site for several centuries. We compare the genetic composition of these descendants of Greek settlers to the local Campanians represented by individuals fromthe site San Marzano and Etruscan immigrants from Pontecagnano.We integrate a thorough analysis of the associated material culture and, where available,strontium isotopes to establish temporal and cultural patterns of mobility, ancestry andadmixture that shaped the genetic landscape of Campanian Magna Graecia.
    Keywordsmobility, Magna Graecia, ancient DNA, migration, bioarchaeology

    i understand from anthrogenica that this study was presented today by alissa mitnik
    maybe we would have some leak ....


    p.s
    if e-v13 would be found among those with greek autosomal profile that would be great
    for e-v13 readers of this forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    this should be interesting paper

    Abstract #: 3776 EXPLORING THE GENETIC DIVERSITY OF MAGNA GRAECIA – THE CASE OF CAMPANIA
    Alissa Mittnik1,2, Alfredo Coppa3,4,5, Alessandra Sperduti6,7, Luca Bondioli6,8, MelaniaGigante8, Claudio Cavazzuti9,10, Alessandra Modi11, David Caramelli11, Ron Pinhasi12,David Reich13,2,14,151 Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138,USA2 Max Planck-Harvard Research Center for the Archaeoscience of the AncientMediterranean, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA and 07745 Jena, Germany3 Department of Environmental Biology, Sapienza University of Rome, 00185 Rome, Italy4 Department of Genetics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA5 Department of Evolutionary Anthropology, University of Vienna, 1090 Vienna, Austria6 Bioarchaeology Service, Museum of Civilization, 00144 Rome, Italy7 Department of Asia, Africa e Mediterraneo, University of Naples “L’Orientale”, 80121Naples, Italy8 Department of Cultural Heritage, University of Padua, 35139 Padua, Italy9 Department of History Cultures Civilizations, Alma Mater Studiorum - University ofBologna, 40124, Bologna, Italy10 Durham University – Department of Archaeology, Durham DH1 3LE, UK11 Department of Biology, University of Florence, 50122, Florence, Italy12 Department of Anthropology, University of Vienna, 1090 Vienna, Austria13 Department of Human Evolutionary Biology, Harvard Univeristy, Cambridge, MA02138, USA14 Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA15 Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT, Cambridge, MA 02142, USAPage 1 of 2

    Starting in the 8th century BCE, coastal Campania in Southern Italy became a melting pot of various cultures and peoples when Etruscan and Greek colonizers joined local Italic tribes. By establishing cities and trade posts, the contact networks of Campania were further expanded across the Mediterranean and inland.We generated ancient genomes from Campania, spanning the 8th to 3rd century BCE,i.e. the Orientalizing, Archaic and Hellenistic-Roman period in this region. While most individuals can be attributed to a genetic ancestry that arose on the Italian mainland, we also discover descendants of migrants from the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean.Most notably, an individual dated to the 8th century at the first Greek settlement,Pithekoussai, a site that also yielded the earliest example of writing in the Euboean alphabet, was genetically of Aegean origin, and we find that this type of ancestry persisted at the site for several centuries. We compare the genetic composition of these descendants of Greek settlers to the local Campanians represented by individuals fromthe site San Marzano and Etruscan immigrants from Pontecagnano.We integrate a thorough analysis of the associated material culture and, where available,strontium isotopes to establish temporal and cultural patterns of mobility, ancestry andadmixture that shaped the genetic landscape of Campanian Magna Graecia.
    Keywordsmobility, Magna Graecia, ancient DNA, migration, bioarchaeology

    i understand from anthrogenica that this study was presented today by alissa mitnik
    maybe we would have some leak ....


    p.s
    if e-v13 would be found among those with greek autosomal profile that would be great
    for e-v13 readers of this forum
    Thanks, I'm sure it would be useful for J2 L70's as well!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan.delajara View Post
    Thanks, I'm sure it would be useful for J2 L70's as well!!

    i am sure j2 generally speaking would show up i would be in shock if not
    about j-L70 i hope for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am sure j2 generally speaking would show up i would be in shock if not
    about j-L70 i hope for you
    Many Thanks. I'm quite sure J2 L70 is part of the greek signature in Magna Graecia, as it is on central-southern Italy today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    No matter how you look at it... the Danubian lime paper methodology is trash, what I said by taking one look at it. And I believe Pax also had some similar feelings without further specifying what at the time.
    The distances in the Italian model you posted are bad. And that's on g25 which isn't a formal tool, so obviously this model would fail with qpAdm. I can't post links at the moment in this forum, but if you try modelling South Balkanites with BGR_IA + Slav on g25 you will see that the distances are much better compared to the Italians you posted. Obviously, this isn't a hyper-accurate historical model either but it's undeniable that South Balkanites need a southern source to model them accurately, in addition to early Iron Age Balkan and Slavic. Models using only HRV_IA + Slavic fail miserably for Bulgarians, Greeks, Macedonians, Albanians and aren't great even for Serbs. Adding Rome_Imperial gives much better distances which should give you a hint about happened in the Hellenistic and Roman periods.

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    Perhaps there is a way to explain the results supposedly showing "Slavic" in Italy (35% in Bergamo) so that everyone understands.

    The people in Europe with the highest "steppe" percentage (which is not Yamnaya, btw, but includes a lot of additional EHG) are the people in the Baltics (according to Eurogenes, anyway, which is what his calculator, unsurprisingly, shows, while most people say the Scandinavians).

    So, a "Baltic" percentage can stand in for steppe in general, Germanic, and, indeed, Baltic, which is why Eurogenes designed it that way: Poles wind up being very "steppe" and "Baltic" like.

    It's completely imprecise and unscientific because it's based on modern populations, and not the dna of the actual invading or "migrating" peoples, if you prefer.

    So, for people in the more northern areas of the Balkans, it MIGHT include some proportion of Celtic and Germanic, although given the history and archaeology and the yDna, in the Balkans they would be minor components.

    In Italy, given the history and archaeology and yDna, it is original steppe invasion, plus Celtic, plus a bit of Germanic, and it's on a cline from north to south, with the north having more of it.

    For the record, as I indicated above, that "Baltic" component in Eurogenes is inflated for everyone, because he made it to show inflated percentages in people like Poles.
    Last edited by Angela; 13-09-21 at 17:54.

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    It's a bit offtopic but, it seems that the rumor on AG about the Egyptians from Old, Middle and New Kingdom being less SSA admixed than modern ones, could be true. I got this from ES forum where a user quoted another one saying this:
    I am in contact with an academic in the know regarding some new aDNA papers on the way and I'm sorry to inform some of you that we have Old, Middle and New Kingdom samples on the way and, so far, they mostly don't look anymore proto-Nilotic than Copts, some even less so:

    There is some upcoming data from Old and Middle Kingdom Egypt that I've seen, some of it has been discussed already on the forum. Basically the Old Kingdom samples look North African with a small amount of Seh_Gabi_C-type ancestry, and very little SSA, then during the Middle Kingdom there's a shift towards a SW Asian/Near Eastern profile which resembles that of the few ancient Egyptians we have and present-day Copts, this corresponds with the large influx of "Asiatics" starting from the 1st intermediate period. SSA ancestry also increases in time. Haplogroups so far are E-M35 and J1-P58 (wish there were more resolution, looks like we'll have to sift through the BAM files again).

    The old kingdom people are probably the so far closest we're gonna get to Horners' non-Yemeni MENA ancestors. Some sort of intermediate in Egypt between Iberomaurusians and Natufians with a little bit of proto-Nilotic. Though I wager our ancestors lacked that Iran-Chalcolithic (Seh_Gabi) stuff. Now, I would never rule out that some ancient Masris on the border with Nubia like in Luxor were more proto-Nilotic for sure but the majority probably were mostly MENA with the only really significant "SSA" in them being "Ancestral North-African" that has mostly survived haplogroup wise in the form of their dominant Y-DNA E-M35.


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    which slavic is in Bergamo ?

    this is a paper showing east-tyrol has some slavic

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0041885

    Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German-Speaking Alpine Region


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    Y-DNA Stilfs 37 samples
    R1b 35%,
    G/H (xDE, JR) 32%,
    E* (xE3a) 14%,
    T (xL, N3, O2b, P) 14%,
    R1a1 3%,




    Y-DNA South Tyrol (n=194) R1b 47%,
    G/H (xDE, JR) 31%,
    E* (xE3a) 7%,
    R1a* 5%,
    T (xL, N3, O2b, P) 4%,
    R1a1 3%,
    L 2%,
    E3a 1%,


    old type of marker detailed

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Y-DNA Stilfs 37 samples
    R1b 35%,
    G/H (xDE, JR) 32%,
    E* (xE3a) 14%,
    T (xL, N3, O2b, P) 14%,
    R1a1 3%,

    Y-DNA South Tyrol (n=194) R1b 47%,
    G/H (xDE, JR) 31%,
    E* (xE3a) 7%,
    R1a* 5%,
    T (xL, N3, O2b, P) 4%,
    R1a1 3%,
    L 2%,
    E3a 1%,

    old type of marker detailed
    Maybe the higher than usual y T percentages in Stilfs (S. Tyrol) is due to genetics ,
    … surely they cope well against Acute Mountain Sickness.
    … I would probably thrive there too :)


    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    which slavic is in Bergamo ?

    this is a paper showing east-tyrol has some slavic

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0041885

    Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German-Speaking Alpine Region
    To the best of my knowledge there is NO Slavic person in the academic Bergamo sample, nor in the Dodecad sample, and no one here ever said such a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    The distances in the Italian model you posted are bad. And that's on g25 which isn't a formal tool, so obviously this model would fail with qpAdm. I can't post links at the moment in this forum, but if you try modelling South Balkanites with BGR_IA + Slav on g25 you will see that the distances are much better compared to the Italians you posted. Obviously, this isn't a hyper-accurate historical model either but it's undeniable that South Balkanites need a southern source to model them accurately, in addition to early Iron Age Balkan and Slavic. Models using only HRV_IA + Slavic fail miserably for Bulgarians, Greeks, Macedonians, Albanians and aren't great even for Serbs. Adding Rome_Imperial gives much better distances which should give you a hint about happened in the Hellenistic and Roman periods.
    We agree.

    Couple of future papers should give us better source populations.

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    I am not even sure there is any slavic in this paper either

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3658181/


    Genetic characterization of northeastern Italian population isolates in the context of broader European genetic diversity



    Maybe the original people became slav due to learning slav linguistically..........

    My wife line come from Motta di Livenza ( Treviso province ) , San Stino di Livenza ( Venice province ) and Gaiarine ( Treviso province )...............the Livenza river separates Veneto and Friuli

    Her family line ( paternal ) circa 1700 came via the Carnian Alps , which is north-west Fruili , same area roughly as the paper above...............but she has no slavic admixture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnic_Alps

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