Genetic study Ancient genomes from a rural site in Imperial Rome (1st–3rd cent. CE): a genetic jun

Dear Italian friends, can I ask you a favour because I?m trying to wrap my head around some autosomal
facts?

I?d really like to see the results you get in the calculators you use if you included Russian Sarmatian or the coordinates of any North East European that you possess.

Has any of you tried this exercise by using 2 sources of populations, 1 let?s say Roman Republican/Imperial + Sarmatian/Russian (or whatever you prefer)?

Obviously Imperial Rome experienced migrations (internal and external) and received different layers with time, but I haven?t seen any post discussing possible Slavic input from Imperial Rome to modern times, for obvious reasons of course as Slavs didn?t really settle much in Italy.
 
Dear Italian friends, can I ask you a favour because I�m trying to wrap my head around some autosomal
facts?
I�d really like to see the results you get in the calculators you use if you included Russian Sarmatian or the coordinates of any North East European that you possess.
Has any of you tried this exercise by using 2 sources of populations, 1 let�s say Roman Republican/Imperial + Sarmatian/Russian (or whatever you prefer)?
Obviously Imperial Rome experienced migrations (internal and external) and received different layers with time, but I haven�t seen any post discussing possible Slavic input from Imperial Rome to modern times, for obvious reasons of course as Slavs didn�t really settle much in Italy.
from what I have seen north Eastern Italians do score some slavic in calculators but no more than 10-15%. In the rest of Italy is pretty much non existent
 
Dear Italian friends, can I ask you a favour because I�m trying to wrap my head around some autosomal
facts?

I�d really like to see the results you get in the calculators you use if you included Russian Sarmatian or the coordinates of any North East European that you possess.

Has any of you tried this exercise by using 2 sources of populations, 1 let�s say Roman Republican/Imperial + Sarmatian/Russian (or whatever you prefer)?

Obviously Imperial Rome experienced migrations (internal and external) and received different layers with time, but I haven�t seen any post discussing possible Slavic input from Imperial Rome to modern times, for obvious reasons of course as Slavs didn�t really settle much in Italy.

from what I have seen north Eastern Italians do score some slavic in calculators but no more than 10-15%. In the rest of Italy is pretty much non existent

There is a couple of ways to go at this through autosomal calculators.

1. Test Italian averages with the same model, Balkan IA + Mordovian (Russian). If they are above 25%, discard this model as garbage.
2. Try to pinpoint what the model is picking
a) Test Mordovian and Russian in models that include Slavic and see how much Slavic they come out.
b) Test pure ancient Balts, with a component in the models being (each point is separate model)
a1) Slavic
a2) Mordovian
a3) Russian
~ if say Balts come out as 30% Medieval Slavic like (Medieval Moravian Samples) with the rest being other ancient N/NE components the again the model in the Danubian limes paper should be taken as garbage.

We just have to wait for the BAMs.
I am interested to know as well.
 
There is a couple of ways to go at this through autosomal calculators.

1. Test Italian averages with the same model, Balkan IA + Mordovian (Russian). If they are above 25%, discard this model as garbage.
2. Try to pinpoint what the model is picking
a) Test Mordovian and Russian in models that include Slavic and see how much Slavic they come out.
b) Test pure ancient Balts, with a component in the models being (each point is separate model)
a1) Slavic
a2) Mordovian
a3) Russian
~ if say Balts come out as 30% Medieval Slavic like (Medieval Moravian Samples) with the rest being other ancient N/NE components the again the model in the Danubian limes paper should be taken as garbage.

We just have to wait for the BAMs.
I am interested to know as well.

Exactly my point even as a beginner and completely ignorant on autosomal calculators. I was hoping someone will cover my lack of experience but I suppose BAM files means the so-called coordinates to test it.

I want to know also how much Slavic these proper Slavs get, over 90%? If not, it?s like saying Albanians and Mainland Greeks are 30% Bulgarian when Bulgarians are around 50% Slavic.

I also don?t see how North-East Italians can be 15% Slavic on average. Then what?s their supposed Germanic percentage and what?s left of their old Italic, only 50%?

Very confusing results overall. Maybe Autosomal DNA tests are still in their infancy.
 
from what I have seen north Eastern Italians do score some slavic in calculators but no more than 10-15%. In the rest of Italy is pretty much non existent


from vahaduo
k13 updated spreadsheet

Italian_Romagna,26.31,11.19,23.14,10.18,24.32,3.81,0.08,0.35,0.07,0.27,0.14,0.14,0

Italian_Emilia,29.66,11.98,24.47,8.33,21.32,2.94,0.27,0.23,0,0.3,0.3,0.16,0.04

Italian_Veneto,32.25,15.08,23.66,7.48,18.38,1.65,0.25,0.4,0.24,0.27,0.3,0,0.04

Italian_Friuli_VG,32.26,16.88,20.62,7.19,18.53,2.99,0.31,0.3,0.05,0.8,0.02,0.04,0.01
 
from vahaduo
k13 updated spreadsheet

Italian_Romagna,26.31,11.19,23.14,10.18,24.32,3.81,0.08,0.35,0.07,0.27,0.14,0.14,0

Italian_Emilia,29.66,11.98,24.47,8.33,21.32,2.94,0.27,0.23,0,0.3,0.3,0.16,0.04

Italian_Veneto,32.25,15.08,23.66,7.48,18.38,1.65,0.25,0.4,0.24,0.27,0.3,0,0.04

Italian_Friuli_VG,32.26,16.88,20.62,7.19,18.53,2.99,0.31,0.3,0.05,0.8,0.02,0.04,0.01


It's Baltic, not Slavic. Even Calabrians get 5% of Baltic. But there are no documented Slavic mass migrations in Italy to be able to explain values between 5 and 16%.
 
It's Baltic, not Slavic. Even Calabrians get 5% of Baltic. But there are no documented Slavic mass migrations in Italy to be able to explain values between 5 and 16%.


so is it a native elment to north east italy ?
or it arrived with germanic tribes ?
or others ?
 
Are we saying that there is no intermixing with Slovenians?
 
It's Baltic, not Slavic. Even Calabrians get 5% of Baltic. But there are no documented Slavic mass migrations in Italy to be able to explain values between 5 and 16%.
I also don't give much trust to these calculators. I think in this case the best way to see if northeastern Italians have slavic genes is to see if they carry haplogroups associated with slavs
 
What are we talking about? K13 Baltic? Or the Slavs?




It is only confined to a few border areas in northeastern Italy that cannot explain much else. Slovenes are 2 million people, Italians are 60 million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_minority_in_Italy


k13 baltic
between 10-16% is not high but it is there
who brought this elment to north east italy ?
or it is a native element to north east italy ?
 
rAUF05t.png

phU0DXz.png


No matter how you look at it... the Danubian lime paper methodology is trash, what I said by taking one look at it. And I believe Pax also had some similar feelings without further specifying what at the time.

https://imgur.com/a/jbYPD4H
 
What are we talking about? K13 Baltic? Or the Slavs?




It is only confined to a few border areas in northeastern Italy that cannot explain much else. Slovenes are 2 million people, Italians are 60 million people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_minority_in_Italy

Until the last part of the 19th century, and really, for some, not until the 1950s, the vast majority of people in Italy didn't move more than a few miles from where they were born. For central and northern European countries back it up one or two hundred years (depending on the area), because they were industrialized earlier. During World War II Mussolini sent southern boys in the military north and northern boys south; that was the first time many of them had seen people from their opposite regions. This was intensified in Italy because it was ruled by different European powers. Southern Italians intermixed more because at least they were under one rule, but in the north each area was under a different power. You needed passes, permission to even travel from one area to another.

That's one reason there's so much heterogeneity in Italy.

I guess it has to be said over and over again. There is next to no Slavic ancestry in Italy, except for the few right on the border who have intermixed a bit with the Slovenes. It's one of the big differences between Balkanites and mainland Greeks and the Italians. Why do they think they plot EAST of us for crying out loud????

Heck, until very recently there wasn't even any admixture between the Italians and certain mountain "Bavarian" towns in the Northeast. Even in my father's area in the Apennines, there wasn't a road up until the 1920s. You don't do much outside mixing. Most of Italy is mountainous; it was never self supporting in terms of food even in Roman days. That's also, btw, why some people in the Peloponnese didn't change or admix too much. Too many mountains. Italy is full of population isolates. Look at the academic sample from Calabria. A lot of academic samples come from isolates because the scientists are actually studying disease. You need samples chosen by population geneticists. That's why the ones chosen by Cavalli-Sforza have held up for so long.
 
Angela, now what? 1/3 of the ancestors of Lombards and Tuscany pops were Early Slavs.
Pretty please.

Before you say, the model is trash, I have already said it. Hence do not take this trash model as legitimate to say anything about any sort of Slavic component in Albanians or the Balkans for that matter.
 
Angela, now what? 1/3 of the ancestors of Lombards and Tuscany pops were Early Slavs.
Pretty please.

Before you say, the model is trash, I have already said it. Hence do not take this trash model as legitimate to say anything about any sort of Slavic component in Albanians or the Balkans for that matter.

You are absolutely out of your mind. Where do you get this stuff???

First of all, the Lombards were NOT early Slavs. They came from what is now Denmark. If anything, they are Germanics. Yes, they might have picked up some Slavic women passing through, as they picked up pre-Slavic invasion Balkanite women, but that's it.

What is wrong with people in this hobby? They had their own historian; they knew who they were and where they came from. Look it up. I'm tired of providing links nobody read or if they do they refuse to acknowledge the facts.

Didn't you read the seminal paper on the Langobards???? If you did, read it again, because you've forgotten it all. There's also a thread here where it was discussed extensively.

The men were ALL U-106. How much U-106 do you think there is in Italy??? Once you get out of the northeast of Italy, through which they entered and where most of their castles are clustered, it's a VERY small percentage.

Yes, they continued from the northeast and took over the country putting strategic castles in certain areas, including where I was born, but how many actual LOMBARDS do you think were in each castle??? I'll tell you right now, not much U-106 or I1 around. We also have extensive documentation. Unlike the rest of Europe, we still had literate people around.

What in the world do hobbyists read? Anything?
 
You are absolutely out of your mind. Where do you get this crap???

First of all, the Lombards were NOT early Slavs. They came from what is now Denmark. If anything, they are Germanics. Yes, they might have picked up some Slavic women passing through, as they picked up pre-Slavic invasion Balkanite women, but that's it.

What is wrong with people in this hobby? They had their own historian; they knew who they were and where they came from. Look it up. I'm tired of providing links nobody read or if they do they refuse to acknowledge the facts.

Didn't you read the seminal paper on the Langobards???? If you did, read it again, because you've forgotten it all. There's also a thread here where it was discussed extensively.

The men were ALL U-106. How much U-106 do you think there is in Italy??? Once you get out of the northeast of Italy, through which they entered and where most of their castles are clustered, and northern Alpine regions absorbed in the last two hundred years, it's a VERY small percentage.

Yes, they continued from the northeast and took over the country putting strategic castles in certain areas, including where I was born, but how many actual LOMBARDS do you think were in each castle??? There were only 60,000 of them, for goodness' sakes! It's called an elite take over??? Anyone of you ever heard of that? It wasn't a bunch of farmers like the Slavs. I'll tell you right now, not much U-106 or I1 around my area, even if there's a string of castles. We also have documentation. Unlike the rest of Europe, we still had literate people around.

What in the world do hobbyists read? Anything?

1. Maybe I am out of my mind. But I enjoy it this way.
2. That is the whole point Angela. If you are going to take the two way model from the Danubian limes paper at face value, then get in arguments and offend people like Dushman who genuinely question it. Then don't act even more aggravated when the same trash two way model gives you an average of 24% Early Medieval Slav across Italy. You would ban people for referring to you the same way you refer to people.

I am not saying there is no Slavic auDNA in the Balkans. I am saying using the Danubian limes model is ridiculous to get any sort of metrics for it.

Anyways... :embarassed:
 
k13 baltic
between 10-16% is not high but it is there
who brought this elment to north east italy ?
or it is a native element to north east italy ?


Baltic is already present in Etruscans and Latins. Were the Etruscans and Latins also descended from Slavic migrations that are later than them? It seems clear to me that the Baltic = Slavic equation is wrong.


R1015_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Villanovan,34.16,9.13,33.08,0.00,20.98,1.79,0.00,0.27,0.00,0.59,0.00,0.00,0.00
R473_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,33.38,12.03,31.63,0.41,18.38,3.34,0.34,0.42,0.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,35.67,12.22,25.57,5.16,17.48,1.51,0.00,0.00,1.10,0.59,0.00,0.71,0.00
R1016_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,35.91,7.69,33.00,1.06,20.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.52,0.00,0.00,0.00
R1021_Lazio_Frosinone_Iron_Age_Latini,37.21,9.04,30.58,2.18,18.82,1.44,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00,0.70,0.00,0.00
R851_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,34.22,14.60,34.26,1.01,15.44,0.30,0.00,0.00,0.18,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00


I also don't give much trust to these calculators. I think in this case the best way to see if northeastern Italians have slavic genes is to see if they carry haplogroups associated with slavs

Someone is there with possible haplogroups associated with Slavs but it is a small minority, nothing that can justify a mass replacement.
 
Baltic is already present in Etruscans and Latins. Were the Etruscans and Latins also descended from Slavic migrations that are later than them? It seems clear to me that the Baltic = Slavic equation is wrong.


R1015_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Villanovan,34.16,9.13,33.08,0.00,20.98,1.79,0.00,0.27,0.00,0.59,0.00,0.00,0.00
R473_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,33.38,12.03,31.63,0.41,18.38,3.34,0.34,0.42,0.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,35.67,12.22,25.57,5.16,17.48,1.51,0.00,0.00,1.10,0.59,0.00,0.71,0.00
R1016_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,35.91,7.69,33.00,1.06,20.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.52,0.00,0.00,0.00
R1021_Lazio_Frosinone_Iron_Age_Latini,37.21,9.04,30.58,2.18,18.82,1.44,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00,0.70,0.00,0.00
R851_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,34.22,14.60,34.26,1.01,15.44,0.30,0.00,0.00,0.18,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00






Someone is there with possible haplogroups associated with Slavs but it is a small minority, nothing that can justify a mass replacement.


so my conclusion that it was a native elment
if it was present in italics and etruscans
very likely that the migration from the steppe increase it though :unsure:
 
Baltic is already present in Etruscans and Latins. Were the Etruscans and Latins also descended from Slavic migrations that are later than them? It seems clear to me that the K13 Baltic = Slavic equation is wrong.


R1015_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Villanovan,34.16,9.13,33.08,0.00,20.98,1.79,0.00,0.27,0.00,0.59,0.00,0.00,0.00
R473_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,33.38,12.03,31.63,0.41,18.38,3.34,0.34,0.42,0.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,35.67,12.22,25.57,5.16,17.48,1.51,0.00,0.00,1.10,0.59,0.00,0.71,0.00
R1016_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,35.91,7.69,33.00,1.06,20.82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.52,0.00,0.00,0.00
R1021_Lazio_Frosinone_Iron_Age_Latini,37.21,9.04,30.58,2.18,18.82,1.44,0.00,0.04,0.00,0.00,0.70,0.00,0.00
R851_Lazio_Rome_Iron_Age_Latini,34.22,14.60,34.26,1.01,15.44,0.30,0.00,0.00,0.18,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Don't bother. Some people can't keep all the data in their heads at the same time. They forget it or can't apply it.

This is why I'm here so seldom. How many times can you tell people to read the same FREAKING papers???

Is there even an acknowledgment that the Lombards are OBVIOUSLY, and NEVER WERE SLAVS??? That there's an entire paper on precisely that question??? That they were all U-106 and there's almost no 106 in Italy???

No, there's a deafening silence about how incorrect that all was, and then just a calculator which you have to have some knowledge of the history and archaeology of these periods to understand.

I don't know what's behind this. Is it anger that we missed the Slavic migrations? That we might have gotten the Lombards but they were smaller in number and had less effect???

Hell, we accept that the Celts came and made an impact, and the Aegean like Greeks, and even a bit from some Germanics, even if my father is probably rolling in his grave over the first and the last. :)

This should all be about trying to reconcile the archaeology and history with the genetics, and let the chips fall where they may. Time to throw away all the myths taught at mama or papa's knee.
 
so my conclusion that it was a native elment
if it was present in italics and etruscans
very likely that the migration from the steppe increase it though :unsure:

It came from the steppe present in both Italics and Etruscans.

Nothing at all to do with Slavs.
 

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