Redfining pre-Ind-European language families of Bronze W Europe - csaba HORVATH 2019

By the way, if you use Google translate for this interesting paper, you can find something about the burial customs of Lăpuș II, which was at the core of Gava.

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576 0x002debec.pdf

It was an elite which controlled the mining of ores and production of metal goods, especially weapons. A large portion of the population was not buried, but the elite was buried in huge tumuli of, in part, exceptional size for the time. Channelled Ware appears there from 14th, safely the 13th century, so much earlier than in the Balkans. The early Gava-related cultural formations in the region being closely connected to the Transcarpathian region of the Ukraine and Eastern Slovakia, of Hungary its only the very North Eastern part which being related at that time, but this changes once they start to expand Southward and Eastward. Intriguingly, they don't really expand big time, only fuse and influence a bit, into the territory of related Urnfield groups to the North and West, like Lusatians and Middle Danubians. Probably both because they had not the same advantages, leverage and were all part of the same religious-cultural wider network of the Urnfield system.
The Gava-people primarily expanded South and East, that's where they headed once the core was finally formed and homogenised from different local influences and small groups. I'd assume that a specific tribe had taken over, homogenising the region, and then started to expand outward. An ideal scenario for a paternal lineage spread and replacement.

It might help to stress the speed of the expansion, once it started:
In terms of relative chronology, the early G?va
phase in Central and Southern Transylvania is later
than the Lăpuş II-G?va I horizon in North-West Romania
(K a c s ? 1990, 49; M a r t a 2009, 102) and
it is partially contemporary to the Susani group from
Banat (S t r a t a n, Vu l p e 1977, 56?58; G umă
1993, 169?170; Vu l p e 1995, 83?86). The finds
from Hunedoara (L u c a 1999, pl. 4:5?6,16, 5:6,9?10;
S ? r b u et al. 2005, fig. 4:5) and Simeria (B a s a 1970,
fig. 4?6; A n d r i ţ o i u 1996) point to an expansion of
the Susani group towards South-West Transylvania (the
Haţeg-Deva area), where no early G?va sites are known
so far, a situation similar to the one of the Banat region

(G umă 1993, 190?194).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...hronology_of_the_Gava_culture_in_Transylvania

They appeared at roughly the same time in Southern Transylvania and at the Danube and in both regions, unlike the core area to the North, there is no regional continuous development towards Gava/Channelled Ware. These are massive changes, with grande scale expansions and replacements taking place in just about 100-150 years. Like I said before, in some cases the grandfather which settled in Serbia, Greece or Bulgaria, could still tell his grandchildren about the homeland in the North, that was the speed of the expansion, within just a couple of generations.

Almost all the main splits of E-V13 fall in the same time span: 1.300-900 BC. The rest happened in the Hallstatt, after that, the macro-regions of Europe show only limited overlap in their TMRCAs, mainly attributable to historically known migrations and individual migrants in the historical period. That's hardly a coincidene, that the main branching events and expansions of E-V13 date exactly, really exactly, to the main expansion and branching events of Gava/Channelled Ware. Actually it can't be, since E-V13 was simply not there in many regions we have proof of its abundant existence just some generations later, AFTER Channelled Ware.
 
C.B.HORVATH: short (right?) digest of mine for the people who cannot read the paper.
This fellow made already in 2019 a paper titled ‘Finno Scythian hypothesis’…
Roughly said, the present hypothesis is focused on the 2800-1800 BC span of time. He pretends he based himself on Y haplo’s successions and propose three layers of language in this period : Vasconic (according to Th. Venneman’s theory), Tyrsenian and Indo-European (relying on Gamkrelidze/Ivanov ‘s theory). No use to say he doesn’t agree to the Steppes theory…
He considers IE cannot have been spoken in Iberiatoo early, because there were there too much “pre-”IE languages (I would prefer to say: “not-”IE): Aquitanian, Tartessian, Iberian, and maybe Pictish and Ligurian he considers as not proved IE languages; based on Hickey 2002 he considers possible a vasconic was spoken in the British islands before Celts; for him, IE tongues of Western Europe are too homogenous to date to the 2500 BC, in his mind, they would have been as distinct as Latin and Sanscrit!
So, looking at Y-haplo’s (no autosome) and MRCA’s he says: Y-R1b L21 & DF27 separated around 2500 BC and BB’s were Vasconic speaking; they covered the whole Western Europe from South to North as did R1b-U152 for Central Europe/Alps.
Concerning Tyrsenians where he includes Lemnic speakers, he is not sure of their moves, maybe by Mediterranea from Aegea, but he seems prefering a lands road; he proposes that among the 12 primary subclades of U152, 8 have a MRCA of 2400/2000 BC in the Tumuli Culture of Central West Europe; culturally the Vasvonics would have been “tyrsenoised” by a group of Y-J2b-Z2507 (from Balkans?): he bases himself on the succession of subclades of this Y-J2b in Central Europe he considers as launchers of the subsequent Urnfield Culture; Rhaetians in Northern Alps and Etruscans in Villanova (Etruscans: 50% of Y-R1B, 25% of them U152).
Concerning Celts, he thinks that a peripheric R1b-U152-L2 has been IE-ised/Celticised by a group of Y-E-V13-CT59320 from Balkans, going towards the Danube source and covering the whole Central Europe between 1000/500 BC, launching the final Hallstatt + La Tène cultures. He notices the relative lack of Y-R1b-U152 among Italics and their weight for J1 & J2 so considers they could have reached Italy across the Adriatic Sea, through South and not through North! Shortly said he thinks the Celtic-Italic cradle was in Western Balkans pre-Illyrians.

There's no lack of U152 in the recent Italic (or Etruscan) samples!!!
 
There's no lack of U152 in the recent Italic (or Etruscan) samples!!!

Agree.
I haven't the more recent %'s of surely labelled Y-haplo's for Etruscans and IA Italics, if there are new samples; the ones I seen contained U152 for sure. I only posted the Horvath's interpretation. ATW, if the autosomes we have can be enough for a rough drawing by time and place, for the Y-haplo's more volatile, we need more before to make serious %'s out. For Etruscans and Italics as well as for other pop's in Balkans and Hungary. The Roman empire period is too late and saw too much changes in life and colonisations to help us to identify true genuine Italics, so their possible geographical origin and pathes, I think.
 

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