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Thread: Very much in 'confused mode'

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    30

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-BY70909
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    Very much in 'confused mode'

    Hello all, I did, some time ago, a DNA test with LivingDNA with the original results showing I am haplogroup E-V13, 88% English and 12% 'european'. Shortly afterwards, I uploaded the same DNA to MyTrueAncestry and that came back with primarily Danish/North German ancestry so Celt/Frank - all good (although admittedly all the samples given were haplogroup R1a.. and none E1b.), seems to tie in nicely with the idea of movement from Europe over to England and with my 'old' Saxon/Scandinavian patronymic surname and male line traceable back to 1640, all in central Derbyshire.

    This changed a little following the mid-2021 LivingDNA update that showed me as 97% English, with just 3% North German and again, most of the 97% is Central England, which is good as their analysis goes back only 10 generations I think which in turn ties in exactly with what we've discovered down my male line.

    However, following a discussion on haplogroups and only the R1a.. results in MyTrueAncestry, I uploaded my DNA results again to see if MyTrueAncestry could correctly determine my haplogroup this time and if, like LivingDNA, their results could have also changed.

    And they certainly have!

    Gone is the Celt and Frank alignment, instead, there's this....

    Byzantine + Roman Hispania (10.63)
    Byzantine + Roman (10.77)
    Byzantine + Hellenic Roman (11.34)
    Seleucid + Roman (11.86)
    Seleucid + Roman Hispania (12.37)
    Byzantine (15.54)
    Roman (15.81)
    Seleucid (15.93)
    Hellenic Roman (18.36)

    ... more than a little unexpected I must say! Obviously all my previous Deep Dive examples have gone (including one very strong R1a... result in Jutland) to be replaced with weaker examples, but this time E1b1...., mainly in the Mediterranean. It was so unexpected that I deleted and reloaded the DNA file to check it wasn't just a misreading or miscalculation. I did get subtly different results (more hits rather than 'just' Roman, Hellenic Roman, Minoan, Carthaginian and different examples given) but essentially the same result as shown above.

    This conflicts so much with what I had previously it is raising questions:-
    - is MyTrueAncestry accurate? The fact it does keep giving differing results concerns me.
    - if the results are correct how and when did my ancestors get from the Med to the UK (my thoughts are that as there appears no or little ancestry in Europe, perhaps 'my lot' went straight through without stopping? Is this an incorrect presumption?)
    - how did I get my surname (although any illegitimacy could easily explain that away) - but does it really reflect any celt/frank origin or not?

    So, light-heartedly, was I a member of the Coritani or of their Roman overlords?

    Any help or suggestions or discussion will be gratefully received.

    As always guys, thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-09-20
    Posts
    195

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13>Y41980>FTA49507
    MtDNA haplogroup
    A2

    Ethnic group
    Eurasian American Mutt
    Country: UK - Scotland



    I can't imagine you not having any Celtic Frank or Saxon in your mytrueancestry regardless of haplogroup type...have you looked into testing your Y-DNA further? I can only vouch for the Big Y test at familytreedna.com, it provided me with a terminal SNP of E-FTA50192 which shows my line may have migrated up into Denmark area through the Iron Age and possibly entered England around the 70's AD possibly as German Mercenaries stationed in Belgium and or the Netherlands making up the front line auxiliaries invading Scotland. My True Ancestry helps confirm this showing Belgae in addition to Illyrian, Frankish, and Celt, with my Roman connections are very far down the list, granted I do have a mother with Spanish roots and Grandmother with German/Swiss roots so that obviously has skewed my make up as well. Most E-V13 I've seen in the UK seems to have followed a migration into German territories during the Iron Age, I'd be interested in seeing what migration path yours took if different.

    IllyrianScot.png

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    30

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-BY70909
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    Thanks for your reply EV13SON. I'll have a look to see what 'big' Y-DNA tests there are as this does interest me, LivingDNA did not show any subclades in my results.

    BUT, all change at MyTrueAncestry - again!

    Downloaded my LivingDNA results afresh and re-uploaded them to MyTrueAncestry...

    ...and am back to this....

    Celt + Frank (3.765)
    Viking Icelandic + Frank (3.943)
    Viking Danish + Celt (4.483)
    Viking Icelandic + Celt (5.408)
    Viking Icelandic + Saxon (5.439)
    Celt (5.773)
    Saxon (7.681)
    Frank (9.029)
    Viking Icelandic (9.651)
    Viking Danish (10.13)

    ..so I'm presuming that either MyTrueAncestry threw a wobbly or somehow my LivingDNA source file had got 'corrupted', anyhow, back as I was.

    However, I would like to ask is E-V13 that closely related to R1a and R1b as I have a lot of example/deep dive hits in MyTrueAncestry with these haplogroups, mainly R1b and just one with E1b...?

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-09-20
    Posts
    195

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13>Y41980>FTA49507
    MtDNA haplogroup
    A2

    Ethnic group
    Eurasian American Mutt
    Country: UK - Scotland



    Well I would read up on the E1b threads here at Eupedia there are lots of good discussions there and debates with much more knowledgeable people, personally I don't think there was much of a relationship between E-V13 and either R1a or R1b. I believe E-V13 was definitely concentrated in the Balkans and the Pannonian/Carpathian Basin as well as western Anatolia. I don't see evidence of E-V13 settling anywhere further north in Europe in any great capacity, when the R1a and R1b migrations entered I believe they picked up a few of the E-V13 men into their culture because the percentage of E-V13 outside the areas mentioned above is minimal. I also have not seen any evidence of E-V13 being in the UK prior to the Roman period. Now I have seen several UK men who are E-V12 and E-V22 whose SNP (E-FT210844, E-BY198289) suggests a very early Neolithic and Bronze Age migration into the UK. There is no doubt in my mind that E1b entered Europe during the Neolithic period and would of had more of a relationship with G2a both most likely following a land migration out of Anatolia or possibly a maritime migration out of Cyprus into the Balkans, but I don't believe either of these lines had a chance to really explode in population numbers anywhere in Northwestern Europe, perhaps this was due to the climate. You can plug SNP's into Robin Spencer's tracker if you are new to it, http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    Edit-Well a family tree dna member just posted their Big Y SNP today in the England Project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oups-eij/about it is E-FT195615 suggesting a pre Roman republic era migration of E-V13 into the UK...
    Last edited by EV13SON; 14-09-21 at 20:54.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
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    1,737


    Country: Austria



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by EV13SON View Post
    Well I would read up on the E1b threads here at Eupedia there are lots of good discussions there and debates with much more knowledgeable people, personally I don't think there was much of a relationship between E-V13 and either R1a or R1b. I believe E-V13 was definitely concentrated in the Balkans and the Pannonian/Carpathian Basin as well as western Anatolia. I don't see evidence of E-V13 settling anywhere further north in Europe in any great capacity, when the R1a and R1b migrations entered I believe they picked up a few of the E-V13 men into their culture because the percentage of E-V13 outside the areas mentioned above is minimal. I also have not seen any evidence of E-V13 being in the UK prior to the Roman period. Now I have seen several UK men who are E-V12 and E-V22 whose SNP (E-FT210844, E-BY198289) suggests a very early Neolithic and Bronze Age migration into the UK. There is no doubt in my mind that E1b entered Europe during the Neolithic period and would of had more of a relationship with G2a both most likely following a land migration out of Anatolia or possibly a maritime migration out of Cyprus into the Balkans, but I don't believe either of these lines had a chance to really explode in population numbers anywhere in Northwestern Europe, perhaps this was due to the climate. You can plug SNP's into Robin Spencer's tracker if you are new to it, http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    Edit-Well a family tree dna member just posted their Big Y SNP today in the England Project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oups-eij/about it is E-FT195615 suggesting a pre Roman republic era migration of E-V13 into the UK...

    E-V13 might ultimately have come into Europe with Impresso-Cardial Ware -> Lengyel-Sopot -> Epi-Lengyel/Baden -> Carpathian Epi-Corded -> Southern Unetice -> Gava-Channelled Ware spread -> Thraco-Cimmerian-Basarabi-Psenichevo
    At this point, with the cultural formations, I just mention the main ones, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, Psenichevo-Basarabi, they did influence very heavily Central Europe. Basarabi related finds are present in Moravia, Bohemia, Eastern Austria and Northern Italy. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi had a massive influence on Eastern Hallstatt, and via Eastern Hallstatt I expect the first E-V13 carriers to enter Proto-Celtic Western Hallstatt groups. Another input happened when Thraco-/Geto-Scythians pushed West, influencing La Tene Celts and Jastorf Germanics. At this point such things like trousers, heavier cavalry and the animal style in art spread to these people. You find them in La Tene and later Germanic art, the ultimate origin lies with the Iranians/Scythians, but it was transmitted for the most part by Scythicised Daco-Thracians:
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557134

    So while Daco-Thracians are the ultimate source, with their massive expansion with Gava/Channelled Ware, followed by groups like Psenichevo, but especially Basarabi, they did transmit both culture and genes to the West early on. Even Gava had already contacts to Central Germany, but the main thrust definitely came with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-Eastern Hallstatt. That's also why the more Northern clades in the Carpatho-Balkan zone are those usually closer to the ones from Germany and Britain. Its Basarabi-Hallstatt heritage for the most part, not from Southern Thracian-Greek. Southern Italy on the other hand, that might be a different story.
    That doesn't mean however that more Thracian-Greek origins in later times are not possible for modern Northern subclades. A lot is possible of course.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    29-07-19
    Location
    California
    Posts
    31

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>FT191655
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W1

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by EV13SON View Post
    Well I would read up on the E1b threads here at Eupedia there are lots of good discussions there and debates with much more knowledgeable people, personally I don't think there was much of a relationship between E-V13 and either R1a or R1b. I believe E-V13 was definitely concentrated in the Balkans and the Pannonian/Carpathian Basin as well as western Anatolia. I don't see evidence of E-V13 settling anywhere further north in Europe in any great capacity, when the R1a and R1b migrations entered I believe they picked up a few of the E-V13 men into their culture because the percentage of E-V13 outside the areas mentioned above is minimal. I also have not seen any evidence of E-V13 being in the UK prior to the Roman period. Now I have seen several UK men who are E-V12 and E-V22 whose SNP (E-FT210844, E-BY198289) suggests a very early Neolithic and Bronze Age migration into the UK. There is no doubt in my mind that E1b entered Europe during the Neolithic period and would of had more of a relationship with G2a both most likely following a land migration out of Anatolia or possibly a maritime migration out of Cyprus into the Balkans, but I don't believe either of these lines had a chance to really explode in population numbers anywhere in Northwestern Europe, perhaps this was due to the climate. You can plug SNP's into Robin Spencer's tracker if you are new to it, http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    Edit-Well a family tree dna member just posted their Big Y SNP today in the England Project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oups-eij/about it is E-FT195615 suggesting a pre Roman republic era migration of E-V13 into the UK...
    I am E-FT191655 and very interested in similar paths. I believe mine was Anglo-Saxon as a Split off at E-S2979. I did the Y700 in FTDNA and am in Several Groups and AM in the Goode Family Project [email protected]

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    29-07-19
    Location
    California
    Posts
    31

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>FT191655
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W1

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Hello all, I did, some time ago, a DNA test with LivingDNA with the original results showing I am haplogroup E-V13, 88% English and 12% 'european'. Shortly afterwards, I uploaded the same DNA to MyTrueAncestry and that came back with primarily Danish/North German ancestry so Celt/Frank - all good (although admittedly all the samples given were haplogroup R1a.. and none E1b.), seems to tie in nicely with the idea of movement from Europe over to England and with my 'old' Saxon/Scandinavian patronymic surname and male line traceable back to 1640, all in central Derbyshire.

    This changed a little following the mid-2021 LivingDNA update that showed me as 97% English, with just 3% North German and again, most of the 97% is Central England, which is good as their analysis goes back only 10 generations I think which in turn ties in exactly with what we've discovered down my male line.

    However, following a discussion on haplogroups and only the R1a.. results in MyTrueAncestry, I uploaded my DNA results again to see if MyTrueAncestry could correctly determine my haplogroup this time and if, like LivingDNA, their results could have also changed.

    And they certainly have!

    Gone is the Celt and Frank alignment, instead, there's this....

    Byzantine + Roman Hispania (10.63)
    Byzantine + Roman (10.77)
    Byzantine + Hellenic Roman (11.34)
    Seleucid + Roman (11.86)
    Seleucid + Roman Hispania (12.37)
    Byzantine (15.54)
    Roman (15.81)
    Seleucid (15.93)
    Hellenic Roman (18.36)

    ... more than a little unexpected I must say! Obviously all my previous Deep Dive examples have gone (including one very strong R1a... result in Jutland) to be replaced with weaker examples, but this time E1b1...., mainly in the Mediterranean. It was so unexpected that I deleted and reloaded the DNA file to check it wasn't just a misreading or miscalculation. I did get subtly different results (more hits rather than 'just' Roman, Hellenic Roman, Minoan, Carthaginian and different examples given) but essentially the same result as shown above.

    This conflicts so much with what I had previously it is raising questions:-
    - is MyTrueAncestry accurate? The fact it does keep giving differing results concerns me.
    - if the results are correct how and when did my ancestors get from the Med to the UK (my thoughts are that as there appears no or little ancestry in Europe, perhaps 'my lot' went straight through without stopping? Is this an incorrect presumption?)
    - how did I get my surname (although any illegitimacy could easily explain that away) - but does it really reflect any celt/frank origin or not?

    So, light-heartedly, was I a member of the Coritani or of their Roman overlords?

    Any help or suggestions or discussion will be gratefully received.

    As always guys, thanks in advance!
    I am E-FT191655 and appear to have Migrated Via the Anglo-Saxon We split at E-S2979 my Autosomal matches in MTA is Predominantly Scandinavian and Celtic. I do have 1 E-V13 match finally in MTA a German Plague Victim

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