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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Venosa average sample:
    Distance to: ITA_Venosa_EMA
    0.01430933 Italian_Campania
    0.01729271 Italian_Calabria
    0.01892498 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02029252 Italian_Apulia
    0.02150771 Sicilian_East
    0.02325459 Italian_Jew
    0.02350433 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02771079 Italian_Molise
    0.02794914 Sicilian_West
    0.03255640 Italian_Lazio
    0.03542975 Italian_Umbria
    0.03593792 Italian_Marche
    0.04578576 Italian_Tuscany
    0.05564931 Italian_Piedmont
    0.06399863 Italian_Liguria
    0.06521908 Italian_Lombardy
    0.06876166 Italian_Bergamo
    0.07082667 Italian_Veneto
    0.07601314 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.07906500 Italian_Northeast
    0.08582995 Italian_Aosta_Valley

    G25 Italian averages aren't completely accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It was an interesting choice to plot Etruscans on a West Eurasian background. They don't seem to have done one on a European dataset. (It would be interesting if someone could produce one for comparison.

    However, they did do one on an Italian dataset, and it can be found in the Supplement. They seem to plot closest to people from Bologna from what I can see.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Another interesting graphic is the one below. It's based on qpAdm. They're showing an increase in Iranian Neolithic in modern Tuscans versus even Imperial and Early Medieval, yes? Does anyone know where it was explained? There is no possible mass migration which could explain it, to my knowledge.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    On the Italian dataset,the Etruscans resemble NW Italians (Brescia, Como, Savona etc)but with a certain pull towards Sardinians (Olbia/Nuoro).
    The modern Bolognese seem very variable, from CEU to Sicilian-like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    On the Italian dataset,the Etruscans resemble NW Italians (Brescia, Como, Savona etc)but with a certain pull towards Sardinians (Olbia/Nuoro).
    The modern Bolognese seem very variable, from CEU to Sicilian-like.
    It's quite clear, since Di Gaetano 2012, that the Italian samples are not always completely accurate, as is also the case with some sets of Greeks (in the sample of Greek Macedonia, there were even some Pontic Greeks). There may also be more technical explanations due to various factors like the genotyping, not just the inaccurate starting sampling. The Etruscans as well as the Latins maintain higher WHG values, to find those values so high you have to go fishing in the linguistic minorities of northern Italy, who obviously have an extra input of recent northern European DNA.

    I've seen the private results of Emilian individuals and they are where you'd expect them to be, intermediate between Lombardy and Tuscany, with the Bolognese usually closer to the Tuscans. Then there are exceptions everywhere, with some Apennine specimens, perhaps due to inbreeding occurring in the smaller, more isolated communities, both in the Emilian and Tuscan side going further north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It's quite clear, since Di Gaetano 2012, that the Italian samples are not always completely accurate, as is also the case with some sets of Greeks (in the sample of Greek Macedonia, there were even some Pontic Greeks). There may also be more technical explanations due to various factors like the genotyping, not just the inaccurate starting sampling. The Etruscans as well as the Latins maintain higher WHG values, to find those values so high you have to go fishing in the linguistic minorities of northern Italy, who obviously have an extra input of recent northern European DNA.

    I've seen the private results of Emilian individuals and they are where you'd expect them to be, intermediate between Lombardy and Tuscany, with the Bolognese usually closer to the Tuscans. Then there are exceptions everywhere, with some Apennine specimens, perhaps due to inbreeding occurring in the smaller, more isolated communities, both in the Emilian and Tuscan side going further north.

    Are you still playing around that linguistics have a value on ethnicity as part of people

    Please let me know when the non-indo european Etruscan language became a Indo-european language
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Are you still playing around that linguistics have a value on ethnicity as part of people
    Please let me know when the non-indo european Etruscan language became a Indo-european language
    Can anyone here explain to me Torzio's question how it relates to what was being discussed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Can anyone here explain to me Torzio's question how it relates to what was being discussed.
    That's mistake number one; you're still reading his posts.


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    Guess you're right.

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    Which of the 48 imperial samples from Antonio et al 2019 are used in this study? It seems they are only selecting a couple of them to utilize to construct their version of Imperial Rome samples. There is only 2 samples in all of the 48 that are North African-like, it seems pretty lop-sided that they would include both while eliminating so many of the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Which of the 48 imperial samples from Antonio et al 2019 are used in this study? It seems they are only selecting a couple of them to utilize to construct their version of Imperial Rome samples. There is only 2 samples in all of the 48 that are North African-like, it seems pretty lop-sided that they would include both while eliminating so many of the others.
    None of the 48 Imperial samples is used in this study, they used just the 6 the found. I can partially understand why they wanted to rely on samples found not in Rome but in Tuscany in order to speak about Tuscany, but given that they have verified that Tuscany wasn't much different from Rome both before and after the imperial period, and given the paucity of just 6 samples, I hold they ought to have integrated the other 48 samples in their analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    None of the 48 Imperial samples is used in this study, they used just the 6 the found. I can partially understand why they wanted to rely on samples found not in Rome but in Tuscany in order to speak about Tuscany, but given that they have verified that Tuscany wasn't much different from Rome both before and after the imperial period, and given the paucity of just 6 samples, I hold they ought to have integrated the other 48 samples in their analysis.
    You are right, thanks.

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    Let's take a look at 5 of the 6 samples. (I don't seem to have ETR016)

    These people are mostly C6, with only one sample being C5, and the other being a North African-mixed outlier.

    Maybe if this study bothered to examine the genetic variation of the so-called Imperial cluster, they would see that C6 was present in the Iron age. Two even matches close to R437, for God sake!

    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_262-424CE:TAQ021
    3.65334094 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.97456531 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    5.18260552 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    5.70495399 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    6.04666024 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    6.28720129 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.57902728 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    6.65725920 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
    6.71589160 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    6.98328003 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    7.02547507 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    7.26534239 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
    7.33377802 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    7.65644173 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    7.96656764 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.01634580 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    8.20192660 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.33453058 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.54786523 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.69293966 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    8.70378653 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.72009174 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.73635508 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
    8.78846972 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    8.91677072 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
    4.22571887 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
    4.31196011 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    5.71508530 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.04187885 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    6.30849427 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.36097477 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    6.41825521 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
    6.51541250 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    6.83435440 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    6.93213531 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
    7.00451997 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    7.12097606 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    7.76882230 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    8.44433538 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    8.45839819 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1549_Monterotondo
    8.71862374 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
    8.80415243 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    9.27257785 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    9.40364291 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    9.58771610 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    9.69825758 C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsi curo
    9.83711340 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    9.94152403 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    10.02607600 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    10.34189054 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_400-530CE:MAS003
    7.72047278 C3_Iron_Age_N_African/Euro-Mix:R475_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
    8.71365021 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    8.89276672 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
    9.07572587 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    9.62520130 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    9.93343344 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    10.17619772 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    10.30015048 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    10.30794354 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    10.45892442 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    10.58182876 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    10.58912650 C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necrop olis
    10.72016791 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
    10.76918753 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    10.82503118 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    11.26164730 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
    11.38913956 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    11.47918116 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
    11.57820366 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    11.66526039 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    11.79233649 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    11.82417862 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    12.06321682 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    12.10252866 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    12.33378287 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_240-380CE:MAS002
    2.96464163 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossin i_Necropolis
    4.41155301 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R41_Isola_Sacra_Necropoli s
    4.43072229 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    4.49097985 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    5.13506572 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R115_Via_Paisiel lo_Necropolis
    5.33598163 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R66_ANAS
    5.45977106 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R133_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    5.51823341 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1545_Necropolis _of_Monte_Agnese
    5.83553768 C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ar dea
    5.91614740 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1543_Necropolis _of_Monte_Agnese
    5.96332961 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R123_Casale_del_ Dolce
    6.16414633 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R39_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    6.17226863 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R50_Centocelle_N ecropolis
    6.54462375 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R40_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    6.85520970 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    7.11766816 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
    7.13604232 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1548_Monteroton do
    7.20874469 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R75_Viale_Rossini_Necropo lis
    7.60957949 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R130_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    7.64296408 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiel lo_Necropolis
    7.67714791 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R72_ANAS
    8.11841733 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.52355560 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R70_ANAS
    8.78526038 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    9.15473102 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro


    Distance to: ETR001
    3.08917465 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    3.12755496 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    4.03565360 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    4.13444071 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    4.93768164 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.00859262 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    5.05356310 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.56285898 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.02139519 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    6.29034975 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    6.51112126 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    6.52214689 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    6.66137373 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    6.98725983 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    7.02551777 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    7.25305453 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    7.88702098 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
    7.93834366 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.01208462 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    8.17496789 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    8.30575704 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.45656550 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    8.47171765 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    8.53086748 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    8.58506261 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Let's take a look at 5 of the 6 samples. (I don't seem to have ETR016)
    I do not know what position ETR016 had but the Y-DNA was I1 and mtDNA was R2b.

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    So, how does this correlate with archeological records, who were the Central European Urnfielders which the Proto-Villanovan culture was supposedly a descendeant of?

    If all Etruscan R1b and G2a lines were from Early Bronze Age then who were the Latte Bronze Age Urnfielders, some other Italic tribes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So, how does this correlate with archeological records, who were the Central European Urnfielders which the Proto-Villanovan culture was supposedly a descendeant of?

    If all Etruscan R1b and G2a lines were from Early Bronze Age then who were the Latte Bronze Age Urnfielders, some other Italic tribes?
    Hard to say, urnfielders practiced incineration, there will always be a shortage of data for the final bronze. Although J2b2-L283 seems to have remained a unicum, for me it arrived during the Protovillanovan in the Etruscans. And we have to wait for the analysis of the Italics and all that. Basically there is still a lack of data for a very large part of Iron Age Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Let's take a look at 5 of the 6 samples. (I don't seem to have ETR016)

    These people are mostly C6, with only one sample being C5, and the other being a North African-mixed outlier.

    Maybe if this study bothered to examine the genetic variation of the so-called Imperial cluster, they would see that C6 was present in the Iron age. Two even matches close to R437, for God sake!

    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_262-424CE:TAQ021
    3.65334094 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.97456531 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    5.18260552 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    5.70495399 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    6.04666024 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    6.28720129 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.57902728 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    6.65725920 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
    6.71589160 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    6.98328003 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    7.02547507 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    7.26534239 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
    7.33377802 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    7.65644173 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    7.96656764 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.01634580 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    8.20192660 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.33453058 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.54786523 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.69293966 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    8.70378653 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.72009174 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.73635508 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
    8.78846972 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    8.91677072 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
    4.22571887 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
    4.31196011 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    5.71508530 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.04187885 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    6.30849427 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.36097477 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    6.41825521 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
    6.51541250 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    6.83435440 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    6.93213531 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
    7.00451997 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    7.12097606 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    7.76882230 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    8.44433538 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    8.45839819 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1549_Monterotondo
    8.71862374 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
    8.80415243 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    9.27257785 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    9.40364291 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    9.58771610 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    9.69825758 C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsi curo
    9.83711340 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    9.94152403 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    10.02607600 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    10.34189054 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_400-530CE:MAS003
    7.72047278 C3_Iron_Age_N_African/Euro-Mix:R475_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
    8.71365021 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    8.89276672 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria
    9.07572587 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    9.62520130 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    9.93343344 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    10.17619772 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    10.30015048 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    10.30794354 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    10.45892442 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    10.58182876 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    10.58912650 C3_Imperial_North_African:R80_Viale_Rossini_Necrop olis
    10.72016791 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria
    10.76918753 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    10.82503118 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    11.26164730 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R107_Crypta_Balbi
    11.38913956 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    11.47918116 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R36_Celio
    11.57820366 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    11.66526039 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R45_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    11.79233649 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    11.82417862 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    12.06321682 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    12.10252866 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    12.33378287 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia


    Distance to: C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_240-380CE:MAS002
    2.96464163 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R81_Viale_Rossin i_Necropolis
    4.41155301 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R41_Isola_Sacra_Necropoli s
    4.43072229 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R134_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    4.49097985 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R34_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    5.13506572 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R115_Via_Paisiel lo_Necropolis
    5.33598163 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R66_ANAS
    5.45977106 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R133_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    5.51823341 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1545_Necropolis _of_Monte_Agnese
    5.83553768 C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ar dea
    5.91614740 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1543_Necropolis _of_Monte_Agnese
    5.96332961 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R123_Casale_del_ Dolce
    6.16414633 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R39_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    6.17226863 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R50_Centocelle_N ecropolis
    6.54462375 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R40_Isola_Sacra_ Necropolis
    6.85520970 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R51_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    7.11766816 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R73_ANAS
    7.13604232 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R1548_Monteroton do
    7.20874469 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R75_Viale_Rossini_Necropo lis
    7.60957949 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R130_Marcellino_ &_Pietro
    7.64296408 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R114_Via_Paisiel lo_Necropolis
    7.67714791 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R72_ANAS
    8.11841733 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R30_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    8.52355560 C4_Imperial_Near_Eastern:R70_ANAS
    8.78526038 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    9.15473102 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro


    Distance to: ETR001
    3.08917465 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    3.12755496 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
    4.03565360 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    4.13444071 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R113_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    4.93768164 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.00859262 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    5.05356310 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R118_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.56285898 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.02139519 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    6.29034975 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    6.51112126 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s
    6.52214689 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    6.66137373 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    6.98725983 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
    7.02551777 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    7.25305453 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    7.88702098 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
    7.93834366 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    8.01208462 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    8.17496789 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria
    8.30575704 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R120_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    8.45656550 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    8.47171765 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R111_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis
    8.53086748 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    8.58506261 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R137_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    This is the problem with doing averages. One or two extreme outliers can throw everything off, using the wrong reference sample for North African ancestry is another problem and just amplifies the error. Why the heck would an author who has worked with Reich and is supervised by Krause not realize that? What would happen if the outlier wasn't included? What if they used a different reference for North African?

    Plus, what is that graph in the supplement all about? It shows a big change happened not before the Early Middle Ages, but after it, and the biggest change was an increase in Iran Neo, while steppe stayed about the same. How the heck could that have happened? Nowhere do they explain it. Why didn't they look at the yDna to see if their modeling made sense? There has to be some rough correlation or it doesn't make sense.

    Did it not occur to them to try using only the Imperial samples who weren't extreme outliers and see if the subsequent modeling provided better fits?

    Etruscan paper graph based on qpAdm from supplement.jpg

    I see no common sense, no attention to detail. We know more about these samples than Posth does.

    It makes me doubt even the Reich Lab and Lazaridis. Whatever is most politically convenient is the way they'll go.

  16. #441
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is the problem with doing averages. One or two extreme outliers can throw everything off, using the wrong reference sample for North African ancestry is another problem and just amplifies the error. Why the heck would an author who has worked with Reich and is supervised by Krause not realize that? What would happen if the outlier wasn't included? What if they used a different reference for North African?

    Plus, what is that graph in the supplement all about? It shows a big change happened not before the Early Middle Ages, but after it, and the biggest change was an increase in Iran Neo, while steppe stayed about the same. How the heck could that have happened? Nowhere do they explain it. Why didn't they look at the yDna to see if their modeling made sense? There has to be some rough correlation or it doesn't make sense.

    Did it not occur to them to try using only the Imperial samples who weren't extreme outliers and see if the subsequent modeling provided better fits?

    Etruscan paper graph based on qpAdm from supplement.jpg

    I see no common sense, no attention to detail. We know more about these samples than Posth does.

    It makes me doubt even the Reich Lab and Lazaridis. Whatever is most politically convenient is the way they'll go.
    Variation of Ancestry in Posth et al. 2021's Imperial C. Italy cluster (eupedia.com)

  17. #442
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Hard to say, urnfielders practiced incineration, there will always be a shortage of data for the final bronze. Although J2b2-L283 seems to have remained a unicum, for me it arrived during the Protovillanovan in the Etruscans. And we have to wait for the analysis of the Italics and all that. Basically there is still a lack of data for a very large part of Iron Age Italy.
    It doesn't look so. We have far more J2b2 among Nuragics than Etruscans. So that means the flow was not via Urnfield but from Eastern Adriatic => Western Adriatic => Tyrrhenian Sea.

  18. #443
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It doesn't look so. We have far more J2b2 among Nuragics than Etruscans. So that means the flow was not via Urnfield but from Eastern Adriatic => Western Adriatic => Tyrrhenian Sea.
    Nuragics have not the same J2b2 as the Etruscan one.

  19. #444
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Nuragics have not the same J2b2 as the Etruscan one.
    Not much difference in TMRCA to be considered as separate waves.

  20. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Not much difference in TMRCA to be considered as separate waves.
    The opposite of what you state. In any case, it is now quite clear that J2b-L283 was not a typical and common Y-DNA in the Etruscans.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have a feeling that once we "discover" Northern Italy completely the Germanic and the Imperial Roman percentages in Tuscany will decrease and fall accordingly to Y-DNA.

    Probably it has to do internal movement in Italian kingdoms. That's why Abruzzo is closer to Basilicata than to Lazio.

  22. #447
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The opposite of what you state. In any case, it is now quite clear that J2b-L283 was not a typical and common Y-DNA in the Etruscans.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/
    And i never said that J2b2-L283 was common among Etruscans.

  23. #448
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Does someone want to tell me that my similarity to Italic and Etruscan samples is a mere coincidence, and/or the result of some complicated, convoluted history of massive admixture from the Levant specifically, plus some 20% Germanic (neither of which could possibly have happened if you look at the yDna of Toscana and Emilia and Liguria, my ancestral areas), and not that I'm actually descended from them?

    My K12b ancient results: I'm about half-Tuscan like and half Emilia/Romagna
    Distance to: Angela
    5.04939600 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    5.96391650 I8475:Olalde_2019
    6.06853360 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    6.10643922 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
    6.11085919 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
    6.16497364 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
    6.36923857 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    6.39419268 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.66446547 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.71269692 Bulgaria_EBA:I2176:Mathieson_2018
    6.86863888 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    7.09575930 I1979:Olalde_2018
    7.26718653 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    7.33042973 Bulgaria_EBA:I2175:Mathieson_2018
    7.66150116 MA2197amgaard_2018
    7.69315930 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    7.90459993 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    8.05195628 VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.13190630 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    8.26525257 TAQ006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.33593426 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.36580540 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.39610029 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    8.80221563 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    8.83255342 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul6:Mathieson_2018

    Mok 17A is a sample from Early Bronze Age Maros culture in northern Serbia. It was an infant girl. I couldn’t find an autosomal breakdown for her, but the group as a whole seems to have been a combination of a bit of Iron Gates HG, Anatolian farmer, and steppe, the latter ranging from what looks to be about 25% to maybe 40%.
    Distance to: MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    4.55975877 Italian_Romagna
    4.86831593 Italian_Tuscany
    5.84622819 Italian_Marche
    6.07696470 Italian_Emilia
    6.50433701 Italian_Liguria
    6.89936954 Italian_Lazio
    8.70247666 Italian_Lombardy
    9.95629951 Italian_Piedmont
    9.97372548 Italian_Veneto
    10.24577474 Albanian
    11.18326428 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.29554780 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.37092345 Greek_Thessaly
    11.47845808 Greek_Thrace
    12.18874891 Greek_Central
    12.27333288 Italian_Friuli_VG
    12.32099834 Greek_Athens
    12.52025409 Swiss_Italian
    12.53549760 Macedonian_South
    12.57526540 Greek_Thessaloniki
    12.59586837 Greek_Peloponnese
    12.83987928 Macedonian_Vardar
    13.25793347 Italian_Campania
    13.50141844 Italian_Apulia
    13.55413221 Italian_Trentino

    18475 is a 2nd century AD Italian found in Empuries
    Distance to: I8475:Olalde_2019
    5.50402580 Italian_Liguria
    6.36328531 Italian_Emilia
    6.74143902 Italian_Tuscany
    7.01267424 Italian_Lombardy
    7.79796127 Italian_Piedmont
    8.50914214 Italian_Romagna
    9.16421846 Italian_Veneto
    9.93606562 Spanish_Canarias
    10.10349259 Swiss_Italian
    10.76134583 Italian_Marche
    10.93044830 Portuguese
    11.32834498 Italian_Lazio
    11.48679242 Italian_Trentino
    11.57619540 Spanish_Baleares
    11.59462807 Italian_Friuli_VG
    12.08391493 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.57920506 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    12.80807558 Spanish_Valencia
    13.88474703 Spanish_Andalusia
    14.17907613 Spanish_Galicia
    14.19793295 Spanish_Catalonia
    15.06820162 Albanian_Kosovo
    15.09009940 Spanish_Aragon
    15.44267140 Spanish_Asturias
    15.49734816 Albanian

    C6 MACancelleria Sample 1287:
    Distance to: C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
    4.91198779 Italian_Marche
    5.17242690 Italian_Romagna
    6.39025039 Italian_Lazio
    6.40369425 Italian_Tuscany
    7.91189611 Italian_Emilia
    8.40096423 Italian_Liguria
    9.54382523 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.78050555 Albanian
    10.90943170 Italian_Lombardy
    11.17442616 Italian_Campania
    11.69785450 Greek_Central
    11.75980442 Greek_Athens
    12.01492821 Italian_Piedmont
    12.05536395 Greek_Thrace
    12.11379792 Greek_Thessaly
    12.16986442 Italian_Sicily
    12.19442906 Italian_Apulia
    12.22591510 Italian_Veneto
    12.53755160 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.63317458 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.17392500 Greek_Thessaloniki
    13.77700258 Greek_Foca
    14.00665913 Macedonian_South
    14.03550854 Greek_Lemnos
    14.30139853 Italian_Calabria

    C6 MACancelleria Sample 1285:
    Distance to: C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
    5.72900515 Italian_Romagna
    5.73315655 Italian_Marche
    6.52571835 Italian_Tuscany
    7.24332796 Italian_Lazio
    7.99996250 Italian_Emilia
    8.58218504 Italian_Liguria
    10.37350953 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.86359057 Italian_Lombardy
    11.23258652 Albanian
    11.75992772 Italian_Campania
    12.19704882 Italian_Piedmont
    12.21777803 Greek_Central
    12.26144771 Greek_Athens
    12.42072864 Italian_Veneto
    12.51855822 Greek_Thrace
    12.59846816 Greek_Thessaly
    12.83907707 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.90282915 Italian_Apulia
    13.07107876 Italian_Sicily
    13.08823900 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.64990110 Greek_Thessaloniki
    14.29335860 Greek_Foca
    14.38501999 Macedonian_South
    14.58299009 Greek_Lemnos
    14.63331131 Italian_Friuli_VG

    Etruscan 010:
    Distance to: ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.26141084 Italian_Marche
    5.52515158 Italian_Romagna
    6.59193447 Italian_Tuscany
    6.84526113 Italian_Lazio
    8.15754865 Italian_Emilia
    8.87920605 Italian_Liguria
    9.69074301 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.99793617 Albanian
    11.10661515 Italian_Campania
    11.19838381 Italian_Lombardy
    11.75719780 Greek_Central
    11.84891134 Greek_Athens
    12.31078795 Greek_Thrace
    12.36642228 Italian_Apulia
    12.45418002 Greek_Thessaly
    12.45619525 Italian_Piedmont
    12.49764378 Italian_Sicily
    12.64545373 Italian_Veneto
    12.79305671 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.86448600 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.48138717 Greek_Thessaloniki
    13.77371047 Greek_Foca
    14.07704514 Greek_Lemnos
    14.38395286 Italian_Calabria
    14.40058332 Macedonian_South

    Etruscan Taq22
    Distance to: TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.91677163 Italian_Romagna
    4.62531339 Italian_Marche
    5.07221845 Italian_Lazio
    5.31941726 Italian_Tuscany
    6.52240753 Italian_Emilia
    7.29891088 Italian_Liguria
    8.50792572 Albanian
    9.38618133 Greek_Thessaly
    9.51462558 Greek_Thrace
    9.63508173 Italian_Lombardy
    9.63739073 Italian_Abruzzo
    9.64062757 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.79988265 Italian_Veneto
    10.10194041 Italian_Piedmont
    10.31402443 Greek_Central
    10.57133861 Greek_Peloponnese
    10.66870189 Greek_Thessaloniki
    10.69634050 Greek_Athens
    10.98788424 Macedonian_South
    11.09392627 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.64879393 Italian_Apulia
    11.87412313 Italian_Friuli_VG
    11.88772476 Bulgarian_Thrace
    12.13292215 Greek_Macedonia
    12.21442999 Italian_Campania

    Imperial Rome R111 is closest to modern Italians from the Romagna, so that “combination” already existed during the Imperial period. It didn’t need Germanic invaders to create it.
    Distance to: Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
    4.37268796 Italian_Romagna
    4.52567122 Italian_Tuscany
    5.34800374 Italian_Marche
    6.02374468 Italian_Emilia
    6.60205271 Italian_Lazio
    6.97389418 Italian_Liguria
    9.43665725 Italian_Lombardy
    10.32837354 Italian_Piedmont
    10.64679294 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.91365200 Italian_Veneto
    11.46594523 Albanian
    12.24593810 Greek_Thrace
    12.31293223 Greek_Thessaly
    12.37012530 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.44505524 Greek_Central
    12.52507086 Italian_Campania
    12.85758920 Greek_Athens
    13.07603533 Italian_Friuli_VG
    13.23058956 Italian_Apulia
    13.23207089 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.53561090 Swiss_Italian
    13.62172529 Italian_Sicily
    13.74291454 Greek_Thessaloniki
    13.76111551 Macedonian_South
    14.09203676 Macedonian_Vardar

    11979 is Bell Beaker from Parma, Northern Italy. Strangely, I’m at a distance of 7, much closer than any other Italians. Is it because of my father’s isolated ancestry from the Apennines south of Parma? I wonder how close he would have been.
    Distance to: I1979:Olalde_2018
    9.15438146 Italian_Lombardy
    9.36782792 Italian_Liguria
    9.72487018 Italian_Emilia
    9.86970618 Italian_Tuscany
    11.69194595 Italian_Romagna
    11.71190420 Italian_Piedmont
    11.90674441 Swiss_Italian
    12.23369118 Italian_Veneto
    13.63891858 Italian_Trentino
    13.84391939 Italian_Marche
    14.74565699 Spanish_Baleares
    14.84070416 Italian_Friuli_VG
    14.90914820 Italian_Lazio
    15.53721661 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    15.71857182 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    15.83608853 Spanish_Valencia
    16.32088233 Portuguese
    16.58355209 Spanish_Catalonia
    16.77931167 Spanish_Canarias
    17.11851921 Spanish_Andalusia
    17.32825438 Albanian_Kosovo
    17.40040804 Spanish_Aragon
    17.40597886 Albanian
    17.98685909 Spanish_Galicia
    18.09251226 Spanish_Cantabria

    Etruscan Pop 001
    Distance to: POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.07801884 Italian_Romagna
    3.76601965 Italian_Marche
    4.61182177 Italian_Lazio
    4.93802592 Italian_Tuscany
    6.51759925 Italian_Emilia
    7.36691251 Italian_Liguria
    7.92328846 Albanian
    9.07261814 Italian_Abruzzo
    9.13163731 Greek_Thrace
    9.18683297 Greek_Thessaly
    9.32396911 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.55951882 Greek_Central
    9.78331232 Greek_Athens
    9.78831446 Italian_Lombardy
    10.18865546 Greek_Peloponnese
    10.30602736 Italian_Veneto
    10.35960907 Greek_Thessaloniki
    10.53922673 Italian_Piedmont
    10.91831031 Macedonian_South
    11.12040917 Italian_Apulia
    11.32484878 Italian_Campania
    11.38471344 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.99846240 Bulgarian_Thrace
    12.14471490 Greek_Macedonia
    12.15691161 Italian_Friuli_VG

    MA 2197 is a Hungarian, or European Scythian.
    Distance to: MA2197amgaard_2018
    9.97781038 Italian_Tuscany
    10.06852025 Italian_Emilia
    10.22724303 Italian_Lombardy
    10.23013196 Italian_Liguria
    10.55425033 Italian_Romagna
    11.30951812 Italian_Veneto
    12.20009426 Italian_Piedmont
    12.22333604 Italian_Marche
    12.79291259 Swiss_Italian
    12.88560825 Italian_Lazio
    13.21657671 Albanian
    13.64027126 Albanian_Kosovo
    13.87365489 Italian_Trentino
    13.93937230 Italian_Friuli_VG
    14.66592309 Macedonian_Vardar
    14.76487386 Greek_Thessaly
    14.80561718 Macedonian_South
    14.99649292 Greek_Thrace
    15.38337739 Macedonian_East
    15.42735557 Greek_Macedonia
    15.48533823 Greek_Thessaloniki
    16.20610687 Macedonian_Polog
    16.22580661 Greek_Athens
    16.33045009 Greek_Central
    16.38869122 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje

    Etruscan Vet001
    Distance to: VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.82312140 Italian_Lombardy
    6.19209678 Swiss_Italian
    6.30357042 Italian_Liguria
    6.75784729 Italian_Piedmont
    7.39512677 Italian_Emilia
    7.63998691 Italian_Veneto
    8.06459546 Italian_Trentino
    8.62826170 Italian_Tuscany
    8.75213117 Spanish_Baleares
    9.27474528 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.00591825 Portuguese
    10.09055499 Italian_Friuli_VG
    10.10696295 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    10.44944496 Spanish_Valencia
    10.87392753 Spanish_Canarias
    11.15032735 Spanish_Catalonia
    11.25371050 Italian_Romagna
    12.08900740 Spanish_Andalusia
    12.17343419 Spanish_Galicia
    12.61313601 Spanish_Aragon
    13.01853294 Spanish_Cantabria
    14.09290602 Spanish_Asturias
    14.35757584 Italian_Marche
    14.80557665 Italian_Lazio
    15.32225832 Spanish_La_Rioja

    Etruscan Taq 006
    Distance to: TAQ006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.73755891 Italian_Lombardy
    7.66617326 Swiss_Italian
    8.55755806 Italian_Liguria
    8.60754320 Italian_Veneto
    8.76263088 Italian_Piedmont
    9.21654491 Italian_Trentino
    9.23681222 Italian_Emilia
    10.37473373 Italian_Tuscany
    10.49120108 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.59357352 Spanish_Baleares
    11.44345665 Italian_Friuli_VG
    12.22221338 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.29539751 Portuguese
    12.40773549 Spanish_Valencia
    12.61312015 Italian_Romagna
    12.80642026 Spanish_Catalonia
    13.41544259 Spanish_Canarias
    14.01009993 Spanish_Galicia
    14.05980441 Spanish_Andalusia
    14.07533303 Spanish_Aragon
    14.33531304 Spanish_Cantabria
    15.54784564 Italian_Marche
    15.94503685 Spanish_Asturias
    15.95680106 Italian_Lazio
    15.96321709 Macedonian_Vardar

    Etruscan Taq020
    Distance to: TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.06915028 Italian_Marche
    4.20366507 Italian_Romagna
    4.54747183 Italian_Lazio
    5.76726105 Italian_Tuscany
    7.15027971 Italian_Emilia
    8.44505773 Italian_Liguria
    8.47549409 Italian_Abruzzo
    9.23949674 Albanian
    9.73216317 Greek_Thrace
    9.81759645 Greek_Central
    9.84473971 Greek_Thessaly
    10.43153872 Albanian_Kosovo
    10.58639693 Greek_Athens
    10.61476801 Greek_Peloponnese
    10.71278208 Italian_Apulia
    10.88945821 Italian_Lombardy
    10.96757494 Italian_Piedmont
    11.00167260 Italian_Veneto
    11.11579957 Italian_Campania
    11.26824299 Greek_Thessaloniki
    11.76737014 Italian_Sicily
    11.85914415 Macedonian_South
    11.97643102 Macedonian_Vardar
    12.01981281 Greek_Lemnos
    12.12501959 Bulgarian_Thrace

    Do you see how many of these samples were found on Italian soil, specifically, many of them, in the areas from which my ancestry stems? Some of the others may not be my ancestors, but they represent populations similar to the ones which indeed came to Italy, or in some cases, departed from Italy, like the Empuries sample.

    If I'm descended from populations like Balkans Bronze Age, I'm also descended from the Italics and the Etruscans, especially because I'm Tuscan and Emilian, areas where Italic and Etruscan samples can be found (we've yet to see the Emilian ones).

    It defies common sense to deny it.

  24. #449
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    17-10-21
    Posts
    6


    Country: Tajikistan



    Edited by Moderator:

    Duplicate post.
    Last edited by Angela; 18-10-21 at 02:17.

  25. #450
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    17-10-21
    Posts
    6


    Country: Tajikistan



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    They are pre-Moorish era samples. It seems that the Moorish impact was greater in Iberia than in Southern Italy and Sicily.
    How do those samples fit the scenario?
    No, they are not pre-Moorish era samples. They are modern people samples, and the impact of the "Moorish" genetics on modern Iberians is very small: only 5% - 6% and not in all Iberia (north-eastern Spain and Basque Country appears to have received no genetic influx from North Africa). Thus, the modern Iberians seem to be the modern populations genetically closest to the ancient Etruscans. Why, is still a mystery (perhaps the Roman expansion played a decisive role in that).

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