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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Though we don't know the ultimate sources yet, in the Antonio et al paper he was modelled as something locals ( I can't recall if it was latin or copper age farmers) plus anatolia BA. Interesting enough also the one "near eastern" Etruscan outlier is modelled with Anatolia_BA.
    My hunch is that it just works as a way to encrease caucasus-related ancestry, and the actual source was from somewhere in SE Europe or maybe western Anatolia.
    P.S. It is ETR001 and ETR016 that are imperial (pink squares in the PCA)
    I was going by what was written in the Supplement about which samples were Imperial Roman. I quoted it above.

    As to the "mixed" sample, certainly not half Levantine.


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  2. #152
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess it needs to be said again: Apulia* was ruled by Byzantium and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the latter of which means that there was unrestricted travel and change of residence within its borders for over 1000 years.

    It is a Southern Italian region, whether it is perhaps Central Italian geographically or not. You can't use modern populations to figure out ancient admixture.

    I realize it may be difficult for some people to accept the huge impact Greece had on the ancient world, but it's a fact, in Italy as in Asia Minor and down into the Levant and into the northern coast of the Black Sea. It is what it is. It does no good to deny the obvious. There's a reason that the English, who saw their Empire as a descendant of the empires of the Classical Era, taught their upper class boys both Greek and Latin.

    * The Abruzzi
    Last edited by Angela; 27-09-21 at 02:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess it needs to be said again: Apulia was ruled by Byzantium and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the latter of which means that there was unrestricted travel and change of residence within its borders for over 1000 years.

    It is a Southern Italian region, whether it is perhaps Central Italian geographically or not. You can't use modern populations to figure out ancient admixture.

    I realize it may be difficult for some people to accept the huge impact Greece had on the ancient world, but it's a fact, in Italy as in Asia Minor and down into the Levant and into the northern coast of the Black Sea. It is what it is. It does no good to deny the obvious. There's a reason that the English, who saw their Empire as a descendant of the empires of the Classical Era, taught their upper class boys both Greek and Latin.

    Did you mean Abruzzo, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess it needs to be said again: Apulia was ruled by Byzantium and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the latter of which means that there was unrestricted travel and change of residence within its borders for over 1000 years.

    It is a Southern Italian region, whether it is perhaps Central Italian geographically or not. You can't use modern populations to figure out ancient admixture.

    I realize it may be difficult for some people to accept the huge impact Greece had on the ancient world, but it's a fact, in Italy as in Asia Minor and down into the Levant and into the northern coast of the Black Sea. It is what it is. It does no good to deny the obvious. There's a reason that the English, who saw their Empire as a descendant of the empires of the Classical Era, taught their upper class boys both Greek and Latin.
    I have previously assumed a 15% to 20% of Greek impact in Apulia simply as a guess, I suppose maybe I am lowering it.

    Again all my assumptions are done based on papers and historical data. I gave my reasoning why. Before that I used to believe Southern Italians were quite similar to the Greeks which turned out to be false. So I could be wrong again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd be happy to look at any actual "proof" you have of that, but otherwise I'll wait to decide how much of an impact actually existed.

    You also can't just look at the number of city-states; you have to look at the population and how far the farms etc. spread into the inland areas, remembering, as I pointed out with the pictures of the topography, the mountainous areas could support much smaller populations.

    Fwiw, my husband's ancestors come from Napoli and Calabria, and in Calabria from the areas of Caulonia and Rhegium. Some of them were still speaking Greek until about 200 years ago.

    That brings me to the comments about Greek speaking in southern Italy. From my recollection, Sicilians spoke both a Latin based language and Greek. I believe it was the same in mainland Southern Italy. How could it be otherwise?

    "During the eighth and seventh centuries BC, Greek settlers founded many colonies (settlements) on the coast of southern Italy (Magna Grecia). In Calabria they founded Chone (Pallagorio), Cosentia (Cosenza), Clampetia (Amantea), Scyllaeum (Scilla), Sybaris (Sibari), Hipponion (Vibo Valentia), Locri Epizefiri (Locri), Kaulon (Monasterace), Krimisa (Cirò Marina), Kroton (Crotone), Laüs (comune of Santa Maria del Cedro), Medma (Rosarno), Metauros (Gioia Tauro), Petelia (Strongoli), Rhégion (Reggio Calabria), Scylletium (Borgia), Temesa (Campora San Giovanni), Terina (Nocera Terinese), Pandosia (Acri) and Thurii, (Thurio, comune of Corigliano Calabro).Rhegion was the birthplace of one of the famed nine lyric poets, Ibycus. Metauros was the birthplace of another of the nine lyric poets, Stesichorus, who was the first lyric poet of the western world. Kroton spawned many victors during the ancient Olympics and other Panhellenic Games. Amongst the most famous were Milo of Croton, who won six wrestling events in six Olympics in a row, along with seven events in the Pythian Games, nine events in the Nemean Games and ten events in the Isthmian Games and also Astylos of Croton, who won six running events in three Olympics in a row.[43] Through Alcmaeon of Croton (a philosopher and medical theorist) and Pythagoras (a mathematician and philosopher), who moved to Kroton in 530 BC, the city became a renowned center of philosophy, science and medicine. The Greeks of Sybaris created "Intellectual Property."[44] Sybaris benefited from "vinoducts" which were a series of pipes that carried wine to the homes of its citizens.[45][46] The Sybarite founded at least 20 other colonies, including Poseidonia (Paestum in Latin, on the Tyrrhenian coast of Lucania), Laüs (on the border with Lucania) and Scidrus (on the Lucanian coast in the Gulf of Taranto).[47] Locri was renowned for being the town where Zaleucus created the first Western Greek law, the "Locrian Code"[48][49] and the birthplace of ancient epigrammist and poet Nossis."





    I have always believed Calabrese were "enriched" with ancient Greek ancestry, aside from the fact the region was more largely in the hand of the Greeks but also because even it's cities were not damaged by wars in the same it happened to Sicilian Greeks (mainly during the Punic wars).
    I am not really sure if the map is disagreeing with my opinion.

    Either way Greeks might have been more numerous in Apulia, Basilicata and Campania than the Imperial Roman migrants, it's just that the shift maybe ... MAYBE was not was great as it was from the Imperial Rome, because Greeks, Mycenaean-like Greeks were closer to Italic and Native Apulian people than Imperial Roman populations thus causing a smaller shift despite being greater in numbers ... just my opinion.

  6. #156
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I have always believed Calabrese were "enriched" with ancient Greek ancestry, aside from the fact the region was more largely in the hand of the Greeks but also because even it's cities were not damaged by wars in the same it happened to Sicilian Greeks (mainly during the Punic wars).
    I am not really sure if the map is disagreeing with my opinion.

    Either way Greeks might have been more numerous in Apulia, Basilicata and Campania than the Imperial Roman migrants, it's just that the shift maybe ... MAYBE was not was great as it was from the Imperial Rome, because Greeks, Mycenaean-like Greeks were closer to Italic and Native Apulian people than Imperial Roman populations thus causing a smaller shift despite being greater in numbers ... just my opinion.

    what Greek influence in Apulia ? did you read the Daunian apaer

    the Daunians, a Iapygian population from northern Apulia, were first mentioned in the 7th-6th century BCE7, 8. Similarly to their neighbouring populations, Peucetians and Messapians (living in central and southern Apulia, respectively), the name of the Daunians comes from ancient Greek documents and, given the absence of written Daunian records, the scant information we have on their social, political and religious life are wholly reliant upon the material record, such as their one-of-a-kind stelae8. For instance, we know that they were mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes810. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance, they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions have been found in their settlements. Indeed, they retained a strong cultural identity and political autonomy until the Roman arrival in the late 4th - early 3rd century BCE8.

    Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians, while Minoans and other Iron Age Greek samples show absent or reduced WHG contribution

    Daunian culture and may also help in unravelling their mysterious origin. In particular, the forearm decorations on a female stela have been interpreted as tattoos and, while tattooing practices were considered barbarian among the Greeks27, they were customary in populations from Tracia and Illyria and, more generally, among the women of status from the Balkans8, 28.

    As per the Daunian thread....the only close Greek city was Taranto which never was messapic and in fact the Messapic destroyed a Spartan army coming from Taranto to attack them
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Did you mean Abruzzo, right?
    Yes, sorry, I just edited it.

    I had to leave the computer and didn't check it before pressing submit reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I have always believed Calabrese were "enriched" with ancient Greek ancestry, aside from the fact the region was more largely in the hand of the Greeks but also because even it's cities were not damaged by wars in the same it happened to Sicilian Greeks (mainly during the Punic wars).
    I am not really sure if the map is disagreeing with my opinion.

    Either way Greeks might have been more numerous in Apulia, Basilicata and Campania than the Imperial Roman migrants, it's just that the shift maybe ... MAYBE was not was great as it was from the Imperial Rome, because Greeks, Mycenaean-like Greeks were closer to Italic and Native Apulian people than Imperial Roman populations thus causing a smaller shift despite being greater in numbers ... just my opinion.


    We really need samples from, say, the Bruttii as well as from first millennium B.C. Greek settlers, yes?

    If the Greek settlers were Mycenaean like, they wouldn't be very close to Italic like peoples, who would have more WHG and more steppe. If samples are found of late Bronze Age mainland South Italians, then perhaps they would be closer to Mycenaeans.

    Does anyone remember how the Bronze Age Sicilians compared to the Mycenaeans?

    Of course, if the settlers were more northern shifted, then indeed it might be difficult to tell them apart from the Italics. Going by that PCA leaked from the Napoli paper, however, that doesn't seem to be the case, I don't think. It will be interesting to compare those Greek settlers from Napoli to the Daunians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what Greek influence in Apulia ? did you read the Daunian apaer

    the Daunians, a Iapygian population from northern Apulia, were first mentioned in the 7th-6th century BCE7, 8. Similarly to their neighbouring populations, Peucetians and Messapians (living in central and southern Apulia, respectively), the name of the Daunians comes from ancient Greek documents and, given the absence of written Daunian records, the scant information we have on their social, political and religious life are wholly reliant upon the material record, such as their one-of-a-kind stelae8. For instance, we know that they were mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes810. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance, they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions have been found in their settlements. Indeed, they retained a strong cultural identity and political autonomy until the Roman arrival in the late 4th - early 3rd century BCE8.

    Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians, while Minoans and other Iron Age Greek samples show absent or reduced WHG contribution

    Daunian culture and may also help in unravelling their mysterious origin. In particular, the forearm decorations on a female stela have been interpreted as tattoos and, while tattooing practices were considered barbarian among the Greeks27, they were customary in populations from Tracia and Illyria and, more generally, among the women of status from the Balkans8, 28.

    As per the Daunian thread....the only close Greek city was Taranto which never was messapic and in fact the Messapic destroyed a Spartan army coming from Taranto to attack them
    Haven't you answered your own question for goodness' sakes?

    The Greeks of Taras (Taranto) and Calliapolis were in PUGLIA, right next to the Messsapians. They just weren't in the northern part of Puglia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There's an odd portion of the Supplement where they talk about Venosa. They first talk about the fact that the samples are carbon dated up to 800 C.E. Then they wax prolific about the "Muslim" presence, a presence which began in 850 C.E. Irrelevant, much?

    Any "Muslim" influence on Basilicata or northern Puglia, whether from the extremely short lived (unlike Sicily) Muslim "kingdom" there, or the settling of some "Saracen" soldiers near Foggia, before they were executed or enslaved, would have had no effect on samples dated before 800 C.E.

    I'd also point out that our Southern Italian members get decent matches with Venosa samples, despite the lack of Muslim input. :)

    The best way of gauging Saracen input is E-M81. There's not tons of it.

    If I'm missing something obvious, let me know. It's late and it's been a hell of a day. :)
    Last edited by Angela; 27-09-21 at 04:46.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    My results for Salento's set is below. One quibble is that ETR10 has no radiocarbon date whatsoever, or context, so we don't know that period.

    Distance to: Angela
    5.88072274 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.32650773 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical
    6.32865705 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    6.44030279 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.46676117 Szolad43
    6.53661992 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.62573015 C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscan y):ETR010
    6.95926002 C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_10 18-1151CE:TAQ022
    7.03668956 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    7.04472143 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.09619616 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.14881808 R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    7.44927513 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.46848043 C.Italy_Early.Medieval:PoggioPelliccia(Grosseto_Tu scany)_772-960CE:POP001
    7.88178279 Collegno36
    7.98552440 C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_750-406BCE:VET001
    8.01499844 C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ :TAQ006
    8.25132717 scy197_Scythian
    8.36475343 Szolad28
    8.58821285 C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
    8.77719773 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.79924429 C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_790-550BCE:VEU001
    8.92554760 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    8.94997207 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.13925599 scy192_Scythian

    13313 Balkans Bronze Age: As a half Emilian, half Eastern Ligurian/Tuscan, seems about right.
    Distance to: I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    3.56289208 Italian_Lombardy
    4.79126288 Italian_Emilia
    4.93867391 Italian_Liguria
    5.14644538 Italian_Veneto
    5.39316234 Italian_Piedmont
    6.07751594 Italian_Tuscany
    6.54086099 Swiss_Italian
    7.53473291 Italian_Trentino
    8.15207949 French_Corsica
    8.45180454 Italian_Friuli_VG
    8.57974941 Italian_Romagna
    9.78649069 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.72772576 Spanish_Baleares
    11.74540438 Italian_Marche
    12.04132883 Italian_Lazio
    12.42080915 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.44335164 Macedonian_Vardar
    12.70592382 Portuguese
    13.00949653 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    13.03460011 Macedonian_South
    13.29582641 Macedonian_East
    13.31957957 Spanish_Valencia
    13.32806813 Spanish_Canarias
    13.74268533 Macedonian_Polog
    13.74453346 Albanian

    ETR010 Undated (I'm at 6.6) so seems pretty good.
    Distance to: ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.02440046 French_Corsica
    5.26141084 Italian_Marche
    5.52515158 Italian_Romagna
    6.59193447 Italian_Tuscany
    6.84526113 Italian_Lazio
    8.15754865 Italian_Emilia
    8.87920605 Italian_Liguria
    9.69074301 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.99793617 Albanian
    11.10661515 Italian_Campania
    11.19838381 Italian_Lombardy
    11.75719780 Greek_Central
    11.84891134 Greek_Athens
    12.31078795 Greek_Thrace
    12.36642228 Italian_Apulia
    12.45418002 Greek_Thessaly
    12.45619525 Italian_Piedmont
    12.49764378 Italian_Sicily
    12.64545373 Italian_Veneto
    12.79305671 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.86448600 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.48138717 Greek_Thessaloniki
    13.77371047 Greek_Foca
    14.07704514 Greek_Lemnos
    14.38395286 Italian_Calabria

    Taq 22-Early Medieval Toscana (I'm at 6.9) Again, about where I should be.
    Distance to: TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.91677163 Italian_Romagna
    4.62531339 Italian_Marche
    5.07221845 Italian_Lazio
    5.31941726 Italian_Tuscany
    6.52240753 Italian_Emilia
    6.86460487 French_Corsica
    7.29891088 Italian_Liguria
    8.50792572 Albanian
    9.38618133 Greek_Thessaly
    9.51462558 Greek_Thrace
    9.63508173 Italian_Lombardy
    9.63739073 Italian_Abruzzo
    9.64062757 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.79988265 Italian_Veneto
    10.10194041 Italian_Piedmont
    10.31402443 Greek_Central
    10.57133861 Greek_Peloponnese
    10.66870189 Greek_Thessaloniki
    10.69634050 Greek_Athens
    10.98788424 Macedonian_South
    11.09392627 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.64879393 Italian_Apulia
    11.87412313 Italian_Friuli_VG
    11.88772476 Bulgarian_Thrace
    12.13292215 Greek_Macedonia

    Vet001 Etruscan 1st millennium: 750-406 B.C.E. I get a 7.9. Lombards are pretty darn close, though, and Ligurians aren't terrible. Spaniards are much further away. So, there's variation in them, and PCAs are not all one should look at...
    Distance to: VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.82312140 Italian_Lombardy
    6.19209678 Swiss_Italian
    6.30357042 Italian_Liguria
    6.75784729 Italian_Piedmont
    7.39512677 Italian_Emilia
    7.63998691 Italian_Veneto
    8.06459546 Italian_Trentino
    8.62826170 Italian_Tuscany
    8.75213117 Spanish_Baleares
    8.93741014 French_Corsica
    9.27474528 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.00591825 Portuguese
    10.09055499 Italian_Friuli_VG
    10.10696295 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    10.44944496 Spanish_Valencia
    10.87392753 Spanish_Canarias
    11.15032735 Spanish_Catalonia
    11.25371050 Italian_Romagna
    12.08900740 Spanish_Andalusia
    12.17343419 Spanish_Galicia
    12.61313601 Spanish_Aragon
    13.01853294 Spanish_Cantabria
    14.09290602 Spanish_Asturias
    14.35757584 Italian_Marche
    14.80557665 Italian_Lazio

  12. #162
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I just realized that J2b2-L283 among Etruscans was only 1 sample, the one it got initially revealed probably. So, they were heavily R1b with G2a (I assume a scenario were the G2a imposed their language, coming from the Alps after splitting with Rhaetians).

    The others are from Early Middle Age Potenza, Basilicata among the E-L618 very likely E-V13 sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My results for Salento's set is below. One quibble is that ETR10 has no radiocarbon date whatsoever, or context, so we don't know that period.

    Distance to: Angela
    5.88072274 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.32650773 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical
    6.32865705 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    6.44030279 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.46676117 Szolad43
    6.53661992 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.62573015 C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscan y):ETR010
    6.95926002 C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_10 18-1151CE:TAQ022
    7.03668956 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    7.04472143 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.09619616 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.14881808 R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    7.44927513 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.46848043 C.Italy_Early.Medieval:PoggioPelliccia(Grosseto_Tu scany)_772-960CE:POP001
    7.88178279 Collegno36
    7.98552440 C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_750-406BCE:VET001
    8.01499844 C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ :TAQ006
    8.25132717 scy197_Scythian
    8.36475343 Szolad28
    8.58821285 C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
    8.77719773 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.79924429 C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_790-550BCE:VEU001
    8.92554760 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    8.94997207 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.13925599 scy192_Scythian

    13313 Balkans Bronze Age: As a half Emilian, half Eastern Ligurian/Tuscan, seems about right.
    Distance to: I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    3.56289208 Italian_Lombardy
    4.79126288 Italian_Emilia
    4.93867391 Italian_Liguria
    5.14644538 Italian_Veneto
    5.39316234 Italian_Piedmont
    6.07751594 Italian_Tuscany
    6.54086099 Swiss_Italian
    7.53473291 Italian_Trentino
    8.15207949 French_Corsica
    8.45180454 Italian_Friuli_VG
    8.57974941 Italian_Romagna
    9.78649069 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.72772576 Spanish_Baleares
    11.74540438 Italian_Marche
    12.04132883 Italian_Lazio
    12.42080915 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.44335164 Macedonian_Vardar
    12.70592382 Portuguese
    13.00949653 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    13.03460011 Macedonian_South
    13.29582641 Macedonian_East
    13.31957957 Spanish_Valencia
    13.32806813 Spanish_Canarias
    13.74268533 Macedonian_Polog
    13.74453346 Albanian

    ETR010 Undated (I'm at 6.6) so seems pretty good.
    Distance to: ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.02440046 French_Corsica
    5.26141084 Italian_Marche
    5.52515158 Italian_Romagna
    6.59193447 Italian_Tuscany
    6.84526113 Italian_Lazio
    8.15754865 Italian_Emilia
    8.87920605 Italian_Liguria
    9.69074301 Italian_Abruzzo
    10.99793617 Albanian
    11.10661515 Italian_Campania
    11.19838381 Italian_Lombardy
    11.75719780 Greek_Central
    11.84891134 Greek_Athens
    12.31078795 Greek_Thrace
    12.36642228 Italian_Apulia
    12.45418002 Greek_Thessaly
    12.45619525 Italian_Piedmont
    12.49764378 Italian_Sicily
    12.64545373 Italian_Veneto
    12.79305671 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.86448600 Greek_Peloponnese
    13.48138717 Greek_Thessaloniki
    13.77371047 Greek_Foca
    14.07704514 Greek_Lemnos
    14.38395286 Italian_Calabria

    Taq 22-Early Medieval Toscana (I'm at 6.9) Again, about where I should be.
    Distance to: TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.91677163 Italian_Romagna
    4.62531339 Italian_Marche
    5.07221845 Italian_Lazio
    5.31941726 Italian_Tuscany
    6.52240753 Italian_Emilia
    6.86460487 French_Corsica
    7.29891088 Italian_Liguria
    8.50792572 Albanian
    9.38618133 Greek_Thessaly
    9.51462558 Greek_Thrace
    9.63508173 Italian_Lombardy
    9.63739073 Italian_Abruzzo
    9.64062757 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.79988265 Italian_Veneto
    10.10194041 Italian_Piedmont
    10.31402443 Greek_Central
    10.57133861 Greek_Peloponnese
    10.66870189 Greek_Thessaloniki
    10.69634050 Greek_Athens
    10.98788424 Macedonian_South
    11.09392627 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.64879393 Italian_Apulia
    11.87412313 Italian_Friuli_VG
    11.88772476 Bulgarian_Thrace
    12.13292215 Greek_Macedonia

    Vet001 Etruscan 1st millennium: 750-406 B.C.E. I get a 7.9. Lombards are pretty darn close, though, and Ligurians aren't terrible. Spaniards are much further away. So, there's variation in them, and PCAs are not all one should look at...
    Distance to: VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.82312140 Italian_Lombardy
    6.19209678 Swiss_Italian
    6.30357042 Italian_Liguria
    6.75784729 Italian_Piedmont
    7.39512677 Italian_Emilia
    7.63998691 Italian_Veneto
    8.06459546 Italian_Trentino
    8.62826170 Italian_Tuscany
    8.75213117 Spanish_Baleares
    8.93741014 French_Corsica
    9.27474528 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.00591825 Portuguese
    10.09055499 Italian_Friuli_VG
    10.10696295 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    10.44944496 Spanish_Valencia
    10.87392753 Spanish_Canarias
    11.15032735 Spanish_Catalonia
    11.25371050 Italian_Romagna
    12.08900740 Spanish_Andalusia
    12.17343419 Spanish_Galicia
    12.61313601 Spanish_Aragon
    13.01853294 Spanish_Cantabria
    14.09290602 Spanish_Asturias
    14.35757584 Italian_Marche
    14.80557665 Italian_Lazio
    This will be good news for Italians. I've observed how some folks, not without glee, pointed out, that the Etruscans are closest to Iberians, thus fall firmly in the Iberian cluster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    This will be good news for Italians. I've observed how some folks, not without glee, pointed out, that the Etruscans are closest to Iberians, thus fall firmly in the Iberian cluster.
    They do overlap, but during the IA Iberians we're similar to Basque and pulled towards the position of Etruscans because of outside sources during the Roman Empire, and medieval period. Italians Are generally bracked between what I speculate will be mainly, C.Italian_IA sources-like, and Aegean_IA-like sources. No doubt some augmentation occurred, but certainly not population replacement from the eastern Mediterranean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I just realized that J2b2-L283 among Etruscans was only 1 sample, the one it got initially revealed probably. So, they were heavily R1b with G2a (I assume a scenario were the G2a imposed their language, coming from the Alps after splitting with Rhaetians)..
    Or vice versa, the G2a were already in place, and are the R1b to take the language from the latter, after that for century in the prehistory of Etruria it is possible that they have coexisted both the pre-Indo-European language and the Indo-European one.

    I agree with you that this point the language may indeed have a relationship with the G2a.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    They do overlap, but during the IA Iberians we're similar to Basque and pulled towards the position of Etruscans because of outside sources during the Roman Empire, and medieval period. Italians Are generally bracked between what I speculate will be mainly, C.Italian_IA sources-like, and Aegean_IA-like sources. No doubt some augmentation occurred, but certainly not population replacement from the eastern Mediterranean.
    Good point, Jovialis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    This will be good news for Italians. I've observed how some folks, not without glee, pointed out, that the Etruscans are closest to Iberians, thus fall firmly in the Iberian cluster.
    This should not be a contest. Unfortunately, that's what some Spanish admixed people try to make it, and I say this with a good degree of sadness, because I spent a wonderful summer studying in Barcelona during university days, and have been back to Spain a number of times since, and had a wonderful time; the people, the food, everything, was just great. I was treated like a long lost cousin, and that's how I felt.

    Most of the "Spaniards" (I put that in quotes because in actuality they are very often New World "Spanish", and thus admixed with Amerindian, or, like Sikelliot, part ) on the pop gen web sites and polluting even places like "quora" are "Nordicists" who live to prove how they are "Celts", and thus more "worthy" I guess, than other Southern Europeans. It's all very sad. In my experience the Greeks and the Italians don't treat each other that way in the pop gen world, and that should be the model. We're all Southern Europeans, after all.

    As to the PCA, it all depends on the populations in the background. I don't remember the background populations from Antonio et al which showed the Etruscan samples they had hovered in a sort of no man's land between Spaniards and North Italians. In the case of this study they used all West Eurasian populations in the body of the paper and just the Italian populations in the Supplement. (I provided a picture of it upthread.) They clearly show very different things.

    It's not a contest, as I said, but, after all, similarity of genetic composition does not mean descent. It is the people in Tuscany and Emilia Romagna who are "descended" from them, to whatever degree. It's the same with my continuing similarity to Balkans Bronze Age. I doubt that I "descend" specifically from them. I just descend from people who were "similar" to them, no doubt.

    It would be interesting from a genetics point of view to see how all the first millennium B.C.E. Etruscan samples, both from this study and Antonio et al, plot in a PCA with a West Eurasian background, a European background, an Italian background, and a Spanish background. Then we might get a more accurate picture.

    What has to be kept in mind always, however, is that while PCAs are deceptively easy to understand, they in actuality show only two levels of variation.

    As to the admixture results, I wasn't trying to make a point about Spain or the Spanish. I just ran my own matches. I didn't run all the Etruscan matches, so I don't know what they would show. That would be an interesting experiment.
    Last edited by Angela; 27-09-21 at 16:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    They do overlap, but during the IA Iberians we're similar to Basque and pulled towards the position of Etruscans because of outside sources during the Roman Empire, and medieval period. Italians Are generally bracked between what I speculate will be mainly, C.Italian_IA sources-like, and Aegean_IA-like sources. No doubt some augmentation occurred, but certainly not population replacement from the eastern Mediterranean.


    Olalde et al. 2021 actually gives us some insight into this, it shows the PCA with Italy Rome Republic (i.e. Latins & Etruscans) as well as Aegean IA & BA. Modern Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Tuscans are generally on that line, but a bit to the east. How much of this could also be driven by genetic drift, related to people living in small villages for centuries, in remote areas? Also, interactions with the Balkans IA-type people, who already land over modern Italians, could have been a factor as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Olalde et al. 2021 actually gives us some insight into this, it shows the PCA with Italy Rome Republic (i.e. Latins & Etruscans) as well as Aegean IA & BA. Modern Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Tuscans are generally on that line, but a bit to the east. How much of this could also be driven by genetic drift, related to people living in small villages for centuries, in remote areas? Also, interactions with the Balkans IA-type people, who already land over modern Italians, could have been a factor as well.
    Compare the graphic above, to the one posted by Pax:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Olalde et al. 2021 actually gives us some insight into this, it shows the PCA with Italy Rome Republic (i.e. Latins & Etruscans) as well as Aegean IA & BA. Modern Southern Italians, Sicilians, and Tuscans are generally on that line, but a bit to the east. How much of this could also be driven by genetic drift, related to people living in small villages for centuries, in remote areas? Also, interactions with the Balkans IA-type people, who already land over modern Italians, could have been a factor as well.
    Unfortunately, as you know, I haven't been keeping up with all your posts. We don't have the coordinates for Balkans Iron Age Cluster, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Unfortunately, as you know, I haven't been keeping up with all your posts. We don't have the coordinates for Balkans Iron Age Cluster, correct?
    Not at the moment, but I am keeping my eye open for when they come about. Same for the Daunian samples, I am interested to see how they would project on the PCA.

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    It is a mere guess, but to me it looks like the red points look like the BA Sicilian samples, judging from their relative position to what looks like the Mycenean cluster. Otherwise it could be Daunians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post


    It is a mere guess, but to me it looks like the red points look like the BA Sicilian samples, judging from their relative position to what looks like the Mycenean cluster. Otherwise it could be Daunians?
    However, Daunians are not Italic, and it is called Italic C. Maybe southern Italics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    However, Daunians are not Italic, and it is called Italic C. Maybe southern Italics?

    Central Italian IA groups are likely Etruscans and Latins from Lazio and Tuscany, all the others are from Campania.








    In this PCA there are likely only samples from Campania


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    I am referring not to the dark red circles in the Campania cluster, but to the bright red circles that are outside it, beneath both Myceneans and Italics (in the second PCA the position of Italics can be approximated by Baleares BA), and in between them. They are not IA C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I am referring not to the dark red circles in the Campania cluster, but to the bright red circles that are outside it, beneath both Myceneans and Italics (in the second PCA the position of Italics can be approximated by Baleares BA), and in between them. They are not IA C.
    Right, I see it now.

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