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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.4560% / 0.01456027
    81.0 Imperial_era_Etruria
    19.0 Swedish
    The results are on track with the paper.
    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.4560% / 0.01456027
    81.0 Imperial_era_Etruria
    19.0 Swedish
    Piedmont fits better. :)

    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.2229% / 0.01222937
    50.8 Italian_Piedmont
    49.2 Imperial_era_Etruria
    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.2229% / 0.01222937
    50.8 Italian_Piedmont
    49.2 Imperial_era_Etruria

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^^The 20% was specifically referring to the medieval Tuscans not modern ones.
    You're right.




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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    You're right.



    What calculator are you using because I got 19% Swedish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    What calculator are you using because I got 19% Swedish?
    Maciamo's Dodecad K12 averages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Piedmont fits better. :)

    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.2229% / 0.01222937
    50.8 Italian_Piedmont
    49.2 Imperial_era_Etruria
    Target: Medieval_Etruria_800_1200CE
    Distance: 1.2229% / 0.01222937
    50.8 Italian_Piedmont
    49.2 Imperial_era_Etruria
    I also suspect something that. The Y-DNA lines fall in serious contradiction with the official model that we were given, not only because of the Germanic lines, but even the Italic ones are quite high for the model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I also suspect something that. The Y-DNA lines fall in serious contradiction with the official model that we were given, not only because of the Germanic lines, but even the Italic ones are quite high for the model.
    Do you think that the people in Piedmont after the fall of Rome were like the people of today? In the Collegno cemetery none of the "Italians" were similar to the northern Italians of today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Do you think that the people in Piedmont after the fall of Rome were like the people of today? In the Collegno cemetery none of the "Italians" were similar to the northern Italians of today.
    We were not implying a migration from Piedmont, especially when that region was underpopulated for the standards of Tuscany in Late Antiquity. We were implying different sources for the northern shift of Tuscans in Late Antiquity and early Dark Ages, not just strictly a Germanic one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    We were not implying a migration from Piedmont, especially when that region was underpopulated for the standards of Tuscany in Late Antiquity. We were implying different sources for the northern shift of Tuscans in Late Antiquity and early Dark Ages, not just strictly a Germanic one.
    Goths, or they did not leave a genetic impact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    We were not implying a migration from Piedmont, especially when that region was underpopulated for the standards of Tuscany in Late Antiquity. We were implying different sources for the northern shift of Tuscans in Late Antiquity and early Dark Ages, not just strictly a Germanic one.
    It's something about all the northern and central Italians, not just the Tuscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    It's something about all the northern and central Italians, not just the Tuscans.
    Something what? East med shift? I know, but it still does not cover everything.

    I am not sure what your point exactly is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My apologies, Ihype. I thought you were referring to something else.

    As to MS. Ariel's calculations, Tuscany never received a 20% admixture from Langobards. The yDna doesn't support it.

    If she has time on her hands, and knows how to use qpAdm she might want to occupy herself trying to model Medieval Tuscans as first millennium BCE Etruscans, plus Empuries, or plus Aegean Iron Age, or plus Roman_Greek, either the sample of Lazaridis or the Greek Roman samples we already have from Antonio et al.
    Sounds too similar to my struggle to pinpoint that a max 10-15% Slavic Y-DNA in Albanians cannot contribute to 38% autosmal input, but most people were fine with that logic.

    Perhaps we donít have enough ancient/medieval samples from Tuscany and Northern Italy in general to account for the full impact of the earlier Celtic and later Germanic inputs.

    You could for instance be testing the tombs of Roman or North Italian/Tuscan citizens exclusively and completely miss the suburbs or villages that could have had originally Celtic/Germanic populations. Just an example by the way, donít hang me for the village/city details.

    I say this because the further back in time we go, the more homogeneous populations tended to be.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think to say the entire genetic profile of the Italian peninsula was 100% Etruscan/Italic during the Iron Age is pretty naive imo. Why is it that our neighbors to the east exist on a cline from North to South in the IA (Slovenian_IA + Aegean_IA), but the MPI paper doesn't investigate that in Italy, due to not having the samples, and to protect the main premise of the paper, which is to use Imperial samples for the model. Also, the so-called outliers and individuals from Daunians, as well as Aegean/Greek IA samples show that this cline existed back then during the IA in Italy. So we already know it was there. This is without even have a comprehensive paper on the south.

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    What are the autosomal affinities of this sample?

    VEN008Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata)660-766 CES.Italy_Venosa H6c E1b1b1a1b1L618

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    No, it has nothing to do with north south movements. Tuscans share many surnames with Emilia and Lombardy, mainly because of linguistic factors. Among other things, these surnames are clearly reminiscent of the nascent Italian language, which as we know was born in Tuscany and are not based on surnames recalling the Gallo-Italic languages. Then of course there was also a bit of gene flow, Tuscany has always been rich. Do Humanism and the Renaissance mean anything to you?
    Maybe.... But it's impossible to know without a genealogical research. I read about these similarities here:http://www.iagiforum.info/index.php?...2e7307696f4a98 so it's not farina del mio sacco

    End ot

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImpartialAmericanSci View Post
    Wow thanks for the article!!! Romans of old are long dead...and modern Italians are melting pot of empire and barbarian hordes from the north??...amaaaazing its like America!!
    The uniparental markers of Latins and Etruscans are still widespread among Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What are the autosomal affinities of this sample?
    VEN008Venosa (Potenza, Basilicata)660-766 CES.Italy_Venosa H6c E1b1b1a1b1L618
    In k12b updated:
    French corsica

    Distance to: VEN008:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.30416573 French_Corsica
    9.47580603 Italian_Tuscany
    9.89631244 Italian_Romagna
    10.01872746 Italian_Emilia
    10.21595810 Italian_Liguria
    10.60266495 Italian_Marche
    11.32723709 Italian_Lazio
    11.94739721 Italian_Lombardy
    12.47193249 Italian_Piedmont
    13.33967016 Italian_Veneto
    14.78553347 Italian_Abruzzo
    14.86854734 Italian_Friuli_VG
    15.04210299 Swiss_Italian
    15.08517484 Albanian
    15.37701857 Greek_Thessaly
    15.49013234 Albanian_Kosovo
    15.49732235 Greek_Thrace
    15.87305579 Italian_Trentino
    16.17098018 Greek_Central
    16.21218986 Spanish_Canarias
    16.32917022 Italian_Campania
    16.35761291 Macedonian_South
    16.39074129 Greek_Athens
    16.39354446 Greek_Peloponnese
    16.51583785 Macedonian_Vardar
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Maybe.... But it's impossible to know without a genealogical researach

    Yes I know what that the Renaissance is, I've studied Architecture, thanks

    End ot

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

    I have been part of genealogical research groups for years, and studied these topics in college. There is no such assumption in studies that the surnames Tuscany shares with northern Italy are due to migrations from northern Italy, especially Emilia, Romagna and Lombardy. There was certainly contact, but in both directions.

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ%C3%A0_dei_Toschi

    So much so that abroad the Tuscans were sometimes called "Lombards" like the Italians of northern Italy, but mass migrations are not documented.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coll%C3%A8ge_des_Lombards

    What I see that now is starting again the circus of unfounded assumptions, I do not refer to you in particular, as already happened with the Etruscans in the past. When then the DNA showed that most were wrong, even those who pretended to be experts on Anthrogenica, who are the vast majority there.

    Samples are too few to reconstruct exactly what happened in the last 2000 years. The Etruscan legacy part is the weakest, and the geneticists who authored this study are only responding to the other group of geneticists, who have produced numerous studies in the past rather useless and ridicolous based on circular argumentation going looking for signs of Eastern Mediterranean contacts in samples of modern Tuscans to attribute them to Etruscan origin. When what you find in Tuscans you can also find in the rest of Italians (and sometimes in many other Europeans).

    That said, it is obvious that there has been a shift, and that the population of Italy today has in its genes also the contributions of the last 2000 years and that it was not due to the Etruscans. Just think of what has happened in the last 80-90 years in Italy, with the great demographic changes taking place. If they go and randomly sample the inhabitants living now in cities like Milan, Turin, Bologna, Florence, Rome, what do they find?

    If for the first iron age a certain number of samples is enough, for everything that happens from the imperial age onwards you need a much larger number of samples that still do not exist. Not to mention the fact that we have so far only analyzed samples of Etruscans, Latins, Daunians, Nuragics for the Iron Age, and must be analyzed the others, because we can not exclude that some surprise will come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think to say the entire genetic profile of the Italian peninsula was 100% Etruscan/Italic during the Iron Age is pretty naive imo. Why is it that our neighbors to the east exist on a cline from North to South in the IA (Slovenian_IA + Aegean_IA), but the MPI paper doesn't investigate that in Italy, due to not having the samples, and to protect the main premise of the paper, which is to use Imperial samples for the model. Also, the so-called outliers and individuals from Daunians, as well as Aegean/Greek IA samples show that this cline existed back then during the IA in Italy. So we already know it was there. This is without even have a comprehensive paper on the south.
    In fact, the picture is still incomplete, and will be for a long time to come. Unlikely the entire genetic profile of the Italian peninsula was 100% Etruscan/Italic during the Iron Age.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think to say the entire genetic profile of the Italian peninsula was 100% Etruscan/Italic during the Iron Age is pretty naive imo. Why is it that our neighbors to the east exist on a cline from North to South in the IA (Slovenian_IA + Aegean_IA), but the MPI paper doesn't investigate that in Italy, due to not having the samples, and to protect the main premise of the paper, which is to use Imperial samples for the model. Also, the so-called outliers and individuals from Daunians, as well as Aegean/Greek IA samples show that this cline existed back then during the IA in Italy. So we already know it was there. This is without even have a comprehensive paper on the south.
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/...flow/#comments

    I made these points in the gnxp comments section.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    Not claiming this modelling is valid.
    Sorry. Perhaps next time you might explain what you mean when you just post a model.

    I'm glad we're not going to hear from the American-Padanian Association or their Italian equivalent and their mythology of 500,000 Germans victoriously pouring into mainly Northern Italy to make them Ubermenschen.

    Personally, I find the estimates based on the earliest records the most persuasive, and they put the number of Lombards moving into Italy at 60,000 Lombards plus 20,000 Saxons, and some sundry small additional groups, putting the total number, as proposed by some historians, at 80-100,000 people. The same sources propose that the Saxons supposedly subsequently returned north. However, even if they didn't it would make little difference. Other historians place the number at 150,000. One puts it at 200,000.

    The Padania contingent found one American professor who supported the idea of a much larger group. It is a minority position from what I can find. Doctoring up the Lombard entry in Wiki, and implying Paul the Deacon was prejudiced against his own people because he was a Christian is pretty low, as well as being quite obvious to anyone who has studied the history. By the way, his "prejudice" is "proved" by the fact that he thinks one of the stories about how they got their name is "silly". I have no idea what that has to do with their original numbers. If anything, his "prejudice" is squarely with his own people, and against the people in whose country he lived. His descriptions of the differences between northerners and southerners could have come out of some Nordicist handbook.

    As for their entrance into Italy, they were no horde of heroic conquerors. We know from the paper on the Langobards that they entered Italy as a group of ragged, starving, battle scarred survivors of wars with other wandering "Barbarian" groups who had defeated them. They were seeking refuge in an Italy plundered and supine from the depredations of both the Goths and the Byzantines, but with a population still numbering in the millions.

    Since none of us has crystal balls or a time travel machine, other than contemporary documents, which also, it is true, might be problematical, we must turn to genetics, both uniparental and autosomal.

    We have ancient Langobard dna. They have, so far, been northern Germanic R1b lines, one I1 at each site if I remember correctly, 1R1a and maybe some I2a2. On could add in some more I1 for the Goths, maybe. That still doesn't bring you anywhere near 20% for Toscana based on the yDna found in this province. Now, I see from Khan's blog that Mr. Rocca is proposing the idea that the invading Germans could have carried some clades of U-152.

    It's possible, but I doubt it. I don't remember any from the paper on the Langobards. He is basing this on the fact that U-152 was probably already in Hungary, Austria, Southern Germany etc., by the time of the "Germanic invasions". I agree that this lineage was already present in the modern areas he listed before the arrival of the Germanic tribes. However, I see no evidence that the Germanic or even Balto-Slavic tribes moving from much further north carried those lineages, nor that the ones who made it to Italy absorbed lots of men carrying those lineages. The Langobards certainly did not.

    Nor does autosomal analysis support such high levels of Germanic admixture into Toscana, leading me to the conclusion that there must be something wrong with the modeling in this paper.
    Last edited by Angela; 28-09-21 at 18:09.


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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I know I was just testing the accuracy of the result, I doubted there was a "20% shift" to begin with. I thought maybe the Germanic samples of Italy were mixed, but when using modern Swedes it turns out they were not.


    You are too smart not to know that the samples are too few yet to draw conclusions.


    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I thought Ariel was a man? I know the username is feminine but something ...



    Ariel is an Hebrew/Jewish name.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    thanks to salento

    ETR001_Imperial_Rome_Chiusi_Tuscany,8.19,0,2.62,0. 45,33.92,11.31,0,0,12.02,0,31.49,0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiusi


    Distance to: ETR001_Imperial_Rome_Chiusi_Tuscany
    6.38203729 Italian_Campania
    7.03265242 Italian_Abruzzo
    7.62693910 Italian_Sicily
    8.38596446 Italian_Calabria
    8.38833142 Italian_Marche
    9.60335879 Italian_Lazio
    9.96289115 Ashkenazi_Jews
    9.96578647 Italian_Apulia
    10.96518582 Italian_Jews
    11.02515760 Moldovan_Jewish
    11.19228752 Greek_Lemnos
    11.26296586 Italian_Romagna
    11.56550474 French_Corsica
    12.23690320 Greek_Central
    12.30425130 Greek_Fournoi
    12.35916664 Greek_Athens
    12.37459494 Greek_Foca
    12.60453490 Greek_Izmir
    12.77140556 Sephardic_Jews
    13.30770078 Greek_Crete
    13.32534052 Italian_Tuscany
    13.33030007 Greek_Icaria
    13.47303975 Morocco_Jews
    14.03145039 Greek_Kos
    14.16424018 Greek_Peloponnese

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is an average of 23 Etruscans from the BCE, not including any outliers.

    Code:
    Etruscan_IA_(n=23),1.39826087,0.080434783,1.73173913,0.413913043,46.36391304,24.45956522,0.140434783,0.125217391,5.251304348,0.242608696,19.38826087,0.405217391

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks to salento

    ETR001_Imperial_Rome_Chiusi_Tuscany,8.19,0,2.62,0. 45,33.92,11.31,0,0,12.02,0,31.49,0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiusi


    Distance to: ETR001_Imperial_Rome_Chiusi_Tuscany
    6.38203729 Italian_Campania
    7.03265242 Italian_Abruzzo
    7.62693910 Italian_Sicily
    8.38596446 Italian_Calabria
    8.38833142 Italian_Marche
    9.60335879 Italian_Lazio
    9.96289115 Ashkenazi_Jews
    9.96578647 Italian_Apulia
    10.96518582 Italian_Jews
    11.02515760 Moldovan_Jewish
    11.19228752 Greek_Lemnos
    11.26296586 Italian_Romagna
    11.56550474 French_Corsica
    12.23690320 Greek_Central
    12.30425130 Greek_Fournoi
    12.35916664 Greek_Athens
    12.37459494 Greek_Foca
    12.60453490 Greek_Izmir
    12.77140556 Sephardic_Jews
    13.30770078 Greek_Crete
    13.32534052 Italian_Tuscany
    13.33030007 Greek_Icaria
    13.47303975 Morocco_Jews
    14.03145039 Greek_Kos
    14.16424018 Greek_Peloponnese

    I thnk ETR001 was already published in a 2020 study, she was a woman. A big problem is that the imperial age samples are all from very peripheral areas of Tuscany, on the border with Umbria or Lazio.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7186082/

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    When thinking of the position of samples like R437, considering it is a just a bit west of most Modern South Italians/Sicilians; It would be bracketed between Aegean_IA, and Italy Rome Republic on the PCA. Samples like R850, may actually form a clade with Aegean_IA, judging from their position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    You are too smart not to know that the samples are too few yet to draw conclusions.





    Ariel is an Hebrew/Jewish name.
    I was not drawing conclusions. I was simply testing the results and comparing that to the official paper.

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