Genetic study The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec

Thanks, Salento; good work! :)
 
Salento said:
imho … the 4 Afr samples are not very Afr, … I would’ve expected much stronger genetic connections to Afr.
Click to expand...

Because some of them were likely only of partial north African ancestry. One thing that the geneticists seem to ignore is that the Punics that were in Etruria in many cases were of the Sardo-Punic ancestry from Sardinia, that is Punics mixed with Nuragics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics
 
Thanks Angela, Jovialis, PT, ...

@Pax … VET006_9 - Dodecad Africa 9 - 2WAY
about: 3/4 Etruscan - 1/4 Punic (maybe Sardo-Punic)

CUPTqvP.gif


Code: 
VET006_9_Dodecad_Africa_9,53.93,20.57,25.38,0,0,0.13,0,0,0
 
Salento said:
Thanks Angela, Jovialis, PT, ...

@Pax … VET006_9 - Dodecad Africa 9 - 2WAY
about: 3/4 Etruscan - 1/4 Punic (maybe Sardo-Punic)

CUPTqvP.gif


Code: 
VET006_9_Dodecad_Africa_9,53.93,20.57,25.38,0,0,0.13,0,0,0
Click to expand...

The archaeological site of Carthage is located in what is now a suburb of Tunis, Tunisia. :) I guess that despite tearing everything down and sowing the fields with salt, not everyone died. :)
 
thank you for the info

my oldest name is an etruscan in my Y list.

I am trying to bridge the oldest most accurate dna path to my modern one.( dna has been the only thing to figure my alien basque irish trail
would love more info on this one.it has a giant group in scandinavia today. my paternal list shrunk way way down. I am a proven south name..no celtic, norse, germanic, english, dutch...
yet the norse dominate it today...south sweden. :)
CSN010Casenovole (Grosseto, Tuscany)380-204 BCEC.Italy_Etruscan_related HV0 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1aZ2247



 
ihype02 said:
Langobards assimilated Goths of Italy. I am not sure were WIKI got that "200,000". But the number of Goths seem to be 100,000 in maximum.
With his people, who may have numbered 100,000 persons, Theodoric arrived in Italy in late August 489. In the following year he defeated Odoacer in three pitched battles and won control of nearly all Italy, but he could not take Ravenna, where Odoacer held out for more than three years.

If I remember well for Lombards it was 60,000, I am not sure where I got this number though.
Most of Visigoths left for Spain leaving few thousands. Less than 200,000 people in all of Italy, mostly men. Goths were not pure "Germanic" either.
Click to expand...

"The Romans in Lombard Italy virtually disappear from history, so much so that it could be seriously argued in the 19th century that every one of them was reduced to slavery. Even in the 8th century, when our documentation begins, we find scarcely a reference to them: 3 or 4 citations in the lombard laws, 2 or 3 in the charters. We tend to refer to all inhabitants of Lombard Italy as 'Lombards'; our evidence certainly allows us to.

But we know that the great mass of the Italians must have been ethnically Roman. Assuming (on weak evidence) that there were far more Lombards than there had been Ostrogoths, say about 200,000, the Lombards cannot have made up more than 5%-8% of the population of the parts of Italy they occupied, and the percentage may have been less."

-- Early Medieval Italy: Central Power and Local Society 400-1000, Chris Wickham, now professor of medieval history at Oxford University.
 
South Iberians in Iron Age:
Distance to:Spain_IA_Tartessian_published:I12171
0.03395368Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03878250Basque_Spanish
0.04007558French_South
0.04385493Spanish_Castello
0.04417619Basque_French
0.04436645Spanish_Pirineu
0.04544848Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.04547529Spanish_Cataluna
0.04569377Spanish_Aragon
0.04591225Spanish_Valencia
0.04637318Spanish_Soria
0.04683527Spanish_Cantabria
0.04700396Spanish_Navarra
0.04729662Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04738135Spanish_Lleida
0.04839711Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04914466Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04941984Spanish_Murcia
0.04984868Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04989068Spanish_Barcelones
0.05004665Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.05086200Spanish_Andalucia
0.05086556Spanish_Girona
0.05159174Spanish_Galicia
0.05187944Spanish_Alacant


New Celtic samples are out.
 
Pax Augusta said:
I don't know, but would it change much?
Click to expand...
I think yes.

  1. Mesolithic: hunter-gatherers from the European Steppes of Western Russia, Georgia and Ukraine are the first humans to settle the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula.
  2. Neolithic: neolithic farmers settle the entire Iberian Peninsula from Anatolia.
  3. Chalcolithic: Inflow of Central European hunter-gatherers and some gene inflow from sporadic contact with North Africa.
  4. Bronze Age: Steppe inflow from Central Europe.
  5. Iron Age: Additional Steppe gene flow from Central Europe, - the genetic pool of the Basque people remains mostly intact from this point on.
  6. Roman period: genetic inflow from Central and Eastern Mediterranean. Some additional inflow of North African genes detected in Southern Iberia.
  7. Visigothic period: no detectable inflows.
  8. Muslim period: Inflow from Northern Africa. Following the Reconquista, there is further genetic convergence between North and South Iberia
A small proportion of Northern African came with the Roman Empire too, not just with the Moors.

Romancoloniae.jpg
 
ihype02 said:
I think yes.

  1. Mesolithic: hunter-gatherers from the European Steppes of Western Russia, Georgia and Ukraine are the first humans to settle the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula.
  2. Neolithic: neolithic farmers settle the entire Iberian Peninsula from Anatolia.
  3. Chalcolithic: Inflow of Central European hunter-gatherers and some gene inflow from sporadic contact with North Africa.
  4. Bronze Age: Steppe inflow from Central Europe.
  5. Iron Age: Additional Steppe gene flow from Central Europe, - the genetic pool of the Basque people remains mostly intact from this point on.
  6. Roman period: genetic inflow from Central and Eastern Mediterranean. Some additional inflow of North African genes detected in Southern Iberia.
  7. Visigothic period: no detectable inflows.
  8. Muslim period: Inflow from Northern Africa. Following the Reconquista, there is further genetic convergence between North and South Iberia
A small proportion of Northern African came with the Roman Empire too, not just with the Moors.

Romancoloniae.jpg
Click to expand...


where is the evidence that during the mesolithic HG in Spain were from Russia and Ukraine? I think you should search for the other way round. During the mesolithic we have WHG in Ukraine and western Russia, obviously mixed with the EHG. During the calcholithic and neolithic Spain has only western european farmers type of dna (EEF enriched with high rates of WHG).
Let's talk scientific and according to what ancient dna shows.
 
4 Imperial Tuscans.

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tuscany)_400-530CE:MAS003
10.84234310Italian_Marche
10.84947925French_Corsica
11.75661091Italian_Sicily
11.75859686Italian_Lazio
11.86983151Italian_Abruzzo
12.08974772Italian_Umbria
12.21488846Italian_Campania
12.29006103Italian_Molise
12.45920142Italian_Romagna
12.88986811Italian_Basilicata
13.28291007Italian_Calabria
13.58632769Ashkenazi_Jews
13.88232689Italian_Tuscany
14.03526630Morocco_Jews
14.03579709Moldovan_Jewish
14.13052724Italian_Jews
14.25606538Italian_Apulia
14.97916219Italian_Liguria
15.11641492Italian_Emilia
15.83630954Greek_Athens
15.99352682Greek_Central
16.15087304Sephardic_Jews
16.16264830Greek_Lemnos
16.70622638Albanian
16.82137034Greek_Foca

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tuscany)_240-380CE:MAS002
4.92469288Italian_Jews
5.02377348Sephardic_Jews
5.61389348Greek_Rhodes
5.69634093Greek_Kos
6.68742103Turk_Cyprus
7.08855415Greek_Icaria
7.61914037Italian_Calabria
7.87701085Greek_Cypriot
8.00139988Greek_Crete
8.03547758Ashkenazi_Jews
8.26605710Greek_Fournoi
8.38906431Moldovan_Jewish
9.20338525Morocco_Jews
10.18842480Greek_Izmir
10.58739345Italian_Sicily
10.83287127Italian_Campania
11.90564992Italian_Basilicata
11.92359845Nusayri_Turkey
12.25610052Italian_Molise
12.85590915Greek_Lemnos
13.05287325Greek_Cappadocia
13.05368147Italian_Apulia
13.34484170Lebanese_Christian
13.75804129Italian_Abruzzo
13.86479715Lebanese_Muslim

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_262-424CE:TAQ021
6.22513454Italian_Campania
6.63100294Italian_Molise
7.57892473Italian_Calabria
7.94185747Italian_Sicily
8.00305567Italian_Abruzzo
8.29930720Ashkenazi_Jews
9.01191988Italian_Basilicata
9.71549278Italian_Jews
9.77208268Moldovan_Jewish
9.99949019Italian_Marche
10.08612909Italian_Apulia
10.57768406Greek_Icaria
10.98871694Sephardic_Jews
11.15716810Italian_Lazio
11.18204364Greek_Fournoi
11.33355196Greek_Lemnos
11.37484945Greek_Izmir
11.55643111Greek_Foca
11.66524753Italian_Umbria
11.69449016Greek_Athens
12.18418237Greek_Central
12.30649422Greek_Crete
12.71015736Morocco_Jews
12.83662339Greek_Kos
12.95389131Italian_Romagna

Distance to:C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020
4.06915028Italian_Marche
4.19701084Italian_Umbria
4.20366507Italian_Romagna
4.54747183Italian_Lazio
5.76726105Italian_Tuscany
7.15027971Italian_Emilia
7.74643789French_Corsica
8.44505773Italian_Liguria
8.47549409Italian_Abruzzo
9.23949674Albanian
9.73216317Greek_Thrace
9.81759645Greek_Central
9.84473971Greek_Thessaly
9.87820328Italian_Molise
10.43153872Albanian_Kosovo
10.58639693Greek_Athens
10.61476801Greek_Peloponnese
10.71278208Italian_Apulia
10.75241368Italian_Basilicata
10.88945821Italian_Lombardy
10.96757494Italian_Piedmont
11.00167260Italian_Veneto
11.11579957Italian_Campania
11.26824299Greek_Thessaloniki
11.76737014Italian_Sicily

 
This is why it's not a very good idea to average samples when you have only a handful of them; it can completely skew the analysis.
 
Jovialis said:
This reminds me of the results I would get from National Geographic, that said I was 90% "Italian", and the rest being northern populations

.My closest match is R973, a medieval central Italian who is similar to modern day Abruzzo. However, with the Two-Way modeling, almost 9/10th similar to R973, and 1/10th R62 or 106 (Belgian-like samples), make for an even better fit. One is from Late Antiquity, and the other from the middle ages.

I think this shows at about 1/10th augmentation towards some kind of northern population.

Maybe Normans?

Distance to:Jovialis
2.85287574C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
3.25777531C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
3.26810343C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.28435686C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
3.64458502C.Italy_Early_MA:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_729-942CE:TAQ003
3.78790179C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
3.80023683C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
4.00470973C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.06354525C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.09070899Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-763CE:VEN006
4.15604379Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN013
4.21379876C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
4.31241232C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
4.71858029C5:Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.83366321C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.95721696C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
5.01646290C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
5.08536134Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-800CE:VEN001
5.39290274Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN015
5.85387906C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
5.92195914C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R35_Celio
5.92265988C6:Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.92911461C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna
5.99387187C6:Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
6.11342784C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna

IbjXeiH.png
Click to expand...
@Jovialis … they could be Normans, … my top 3rd match on MyHeritage is from Norway and he’s not mixed (I have a few more matches like that).

I used to ignore Scandinavian matches as they’re usually Italians or mixed, until I noticed that some of them aren't mixed and outmatched the cM I shared with some of my Italian matches.

On Maciamo’s 2way calculator I get ancients Scandinavians and the Italian-Greeks (R850 + R437).…

Although the Normans are not close to us by genetic distance, they have a presence in the chromosome.

MyHeritage top 3 matches:

hl5Wsz8.jpg
 
No J2a in Daunians, Etruscans and Latins. It seems most of J2a came with Imperial Rome and Magna Graecia, only a small proportion of it is from Bronze Age.
 
Salento said:
@Jovialis … they could be Normans, … my top 3rd match on MyHeritage is from Norway and he’s not mixed (I have a few more matches like that).

I used to ignore Scandinavian matches as they’re usually Italians or mixed, until I noticed that some of them aren't mixed and outmatched the cM I shared with some of my Italian matches.

On Maciamo’s 2way calculator I get ancients Scandinavians and the Italian-Greeks (R850 + R437).…

Although the Normans are not close to us by genetic distance, they have a presence in the chromosome.

MyHeritage top 3 matches:

hl5Wsz8.jpg
Click to expand...

3rd-5th cousin is quite far. chances are high that those people have italian ancestry even if their name doesn't show it. i got not a single norwegian match on myheritage. got some people in finland but i know of far relatives who moved there in the past. but if this went as far back as the normans i'd expect a lot more.
 
ihype02 said:
No J2a in Daunians, Etruscans and Latins. It seems most of J2a came with Imperial Rome and Magna Graecia, only a small proportion of it is from Bronze Age.
Click to expand...

J2a was so far found in relation with Yamnaya R-Z2103 and Channelled Ware related groups (Kyjatice, one new possible sample from Pannonia in the British study). So J2a was established in the Pannonian sphere in the Bronze Age, as a minority element. The new sample has almost exclusively modern matches in the North Caucausus (like Chechens), so it will be interesting to see to which context it really belongs. Its close to F?zesabony samples, which probably contributed to Kyjatice, so there could be a continuity in the North Pannonian region.
 
Ailchu said:
3rd-5th cousin is quite far. chances are high that those people have italian ancestry even if their name doesn't show it. i got not a single norwegian match on myheritage. got some people in finland but i know of far relatives who moved there in the past. but if this went as far back as the normans i'd expect a lot more.
Click to expand...

If he wasn’t full Scandinavian I wouldn’t use him as reference, and why would you chrome match the Norwegians more than me, many Apulians, Sicilians, … ?

The Normans founded towns in S.Italy, some of the Norman Kings were born and lived in Salento too and their genetic marks are still found in many Apulians today.

… “Viking DNA is still present today not only in the Apulian population, but also in one in 10 Danes and in one in 16 Britons” …

https://wonderwhy.it/la-vera-identita-dei-vichinghi-raccontata-dal-dna/
 
Salento said:
If he wasn’t full Scandinavian I wouldn’t use him as reference, and why would you chrome match the Norwegians more than me, many Apulians, Sicilians, … ?

The Normans founded towns in S.Italy, some of the Norman Kings were born and lived in Salento too and their genetic marks are still found in many Apulians today.

… “Viking DNA is still present today not only in the Apulian population, but also in one in 10 Danes and in one in 16 Britons” …

https://wonderwhy.it/la-vera-identita-dei-vichinghi-raccontata-dal-dna/
Click to expand...

I am predicted 4th cousin level with a Danish family, and contacted them. To their knowledge no stray Italians in the bloodline; not even rumors of one. :)

I've always felt, given the number of Langobard castles where I was born, that it's just a stray bit of Dna which happened to survive in me and which ties me to those people in a small way.

Given the history of Apulia, some Viking dna still existing in the people there should not be at all surprising. Would nicely explain the number of fair haired and eyed people in Puglia as well, which, while not perhaps at the level of areas further north, is higher than in places like Calabria, for example.

I know Italian scientists tried to track the Celt-Ligures to the area around Benevento near where many were supposedly sent, and professed to find no trace, but there's a pocket of slightly fairer people there (my grandmother in law being one) and there's also some higher levels of I1 if memory serves, or at least one of the Germanic ydna, so one or the other might have had a hand in it.

All of this is completely different than some random person just saying well, I don't have any matches there so yours must be fake. Historical context is extremely important.
 
Salento said:
If he wasn’t full Scandinavian I wouldn’t use him as reference, and why would you chrome match the Norwegians more than me, many Apulians, Sicilians, … ?

The Normans founded towns in S.Italy, some of the Norman Kings were born and lived in Salento too and their genetic marks are still found in many Apulians today.

… “Viking DNA is still present today not only in the Apulian population, but also in one in 10 Danes and in one in 16 Britons” …

https://wonderwhy.it/la-vera-identita-dei-vichinghi-raccontata-dal-dna/
Click to expand...

i'm half swiss, there were plenty of germanic tribes passing through here. if this calculator is able to connect ancestry as far back as to the normans or even lombards i'd definitly get way more matches from scandinavia. but i do not even get a lot of matches from germany. and it would not just be because of germanic ancestry in italy or switzerland. there would also be a lot more matches because of all the reversed migrations from south to north since the time of the normans. in my case there is no such thing detectable.

let's say that norwegian guy is a 5th grade cousin that could mean he has maybe 3% ancestry from a grand grand grand grand uncle/aunt of yours. i wonder how this would show up in his myheritage results and if it would make people think that they are not 100% norwegian. i'm not saying your result is fake. but imo it's way more likely that there is a more recent connection.
most people do not know all their ancestors after their grandparents, unless they put in a lot of effort. and if they know further then it is often just the fathers line with the women often times just coming in from somewhere.

actually i just found a norwegian match in my list. but the surname sounds german so it's probably a swiss-german connection. there is also one from the netherlands if we want to count it as scandinavian but the name also doesn't sound dutch.
 
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My maternal grandfather's last name is a latinized Norman surname. That combined with the modeling I put forward, and given this history of the region; I think it is intriguing to say the least. He and many on his side has people over six feet tall, with light eyes.
 
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