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The current linguistic consensus is that Albanian is a thracian or dacian language, and that is definitely has a lot of dacian influence. This combined with the fact that the Iron-Age Moldova samples (scy197,192,305,300) plot extremely close to Albanians means something may be happening there. Those samples on K13 also score similar levels of baltic to modern Albanians on K13.
Yeah it does not make sense otherwise. If all those people came from one region that region would empty."Roman Imperial Cluster" is not an ethnic monolithic group, which I have already pointed out that Antonio et al 2019 demonstrated. Rather they are different meta-ethnic groups, organized into different cohorts by genetic affinity.
Yeah it does not make sense otherwise. If all those people came from one region that region would empty.
Their average cluster is Cypriot-like coincidentally, they probably were a mixture of Northern African, Levantines, Anatolians and even Balkanites (to a smaller degree).
Using Pre Rome Imperial Etruscan the Nordic impact will lose 3% to 5% from the overall percentage. But still it does not add up. I just checked the population of Sicily, it is estimated that 600,000 people lived in the island during the imperial period. So I suppose 300,000 people lived in Tuscany minimally. You would need 60,000 Germanic people all to settle down to Tuscany to make percentage and that is the number of total Germanic that entered Italy. It is mathematically impossible.
Something is missing, for sure.
They say this, but their own data shows it's not true for Toscana.
I'm very disappointed in this paper and Krause, whose responsibility it was to supervise it.
Anti-Racism Statement
JULY 28, 2020
The recent protests against police brutality and racism in the United States of America have galvanised people in anti-racism movements across Germany, Europe and beyond. We at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History want to make it clear that we stand together with the Black Lives Matter movement that is still tirelessly working for justice for the victims of police brutality, marginalisation, and embedded racist social, cultural, and economic structures.
It's a bit off-topic, but I have to point out this fact.
Instead of that, the Max Planck Institute sticks to the science they get political and bend the knee for BLM.
https://www.shh.mpg.de/1794162/anti-racism-statement-mpi-shh
When scientists behave like political activists, then it becomes a necessity to double-check, vet their conclusions and interpretation of the data. That said, I'm not dismissing the studies from Max Planck Institute as such, I'm rather well aware of the fact, that science doesn't exist in a vacuum.
But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_East_Med_Profile:ETR014 Distance: 5.8434% / 0.05843383 | |
---|---|
100.0 | ITA_Etruria_Imperial |
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR013 Distance: 4.2658% / 0.04265800 | |
---|---|
97.8 | ITA_Etruria_Imperial |
2.2 | SWE_IA |
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR010 Distance: 4.1774% / 0.04177429 | |
---|---|
94.0 | ITA_Etruria_Imperial |
6.0 | SWE_IA |
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR007 Distance: 3.9967% / 0.03996698 | |
---|---|
76.6 | ITA_Etruria_Imperial |
23.4 | SWE_IA |
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR003 Distance: 3.7818% / 0.03781795 | |
---|---|
90.4 | ITA_Etruria_Imperial |
9.6 | SWE_IA |
There is, to my knowledge, no actual proof whatsoever as of yet that E-V13 was a Germanic line. We know the Germanic lines of the Langobards in Italy from the burial site in Italy (Collegno), and the one in Hungary (Szolad).
Maciamo analyzed all of them when the paper came out...
"The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:
- I1-L22 (1 sample)
- I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
- R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
- R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)
One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.
There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).
The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:
- E-V13
- G2a1a
- I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
- R1b-Z2103
- T1a1a
One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.
Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.
The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry."
Makes complete sense to me.
So, the actual Langobard yDna appears to be !1, U-106, some clades of I2a2a and R1a Z284.
Goths could be assumed to carry some if not all of these and also had, perhaps, picked up some "Slavic" clades.
Maciamo has already checked these against his extensive collection of yDna for Tuscany, and it comes out in the range of 5-10%.
Now, if someone can provide proof that autosomally Germanic people brought U-152, then that would be adjusted, but I seriously doubt that would happen.
I'd also point out that for all of this talk about E-V13 being German, the E-V13 here is 100% Italian or Tuscan like Balkan. No Germanic autosomal dna admixture whatsoever.
Proceeding to Dushman's point about Albanian yDna and whether or not it correlates with 48% "Slavic" dna, I'm already on record as saying I don't believe it does.
However, it's extremely difficult to decipher exactly how much "Slavic" yDna the Albanians might have from the academic papers because they aren't broken down to very detailed subclade level.
For what it's worth, Maciamo shows 9% R1a, and 12% I2a. We're therefore up to 21%. There's also 2% I1, so perhaps some of the "Slavic" incomers had picked that up. That brings us to 23%.
There is 16% R1b in Albania. Whatever U-106 is present could perhaps be added, since the "Slavic" percentages may in actuality also include "Germanic" ancestry. As for J2b, it is also present in Italy where the Slavs never settled, so unless the J2b is of a very different subclade than the J2b in Italy, I am doubtful that should be counted as "Slavic" yDna. Much much likely that it was picked up by Bronze Age steppe migrants, imo.
So, it would seem to me that there'd be a maximum of about 25% "Slavic" yDna.
Now, I find the whole issue of the "Slavic" mtDna rather problematical. The authors of the Danubian Limes paper, when confronted with the low percentage of yDna in the Slavic Kuline settlement, and the high Slavic presence in the X chromosome, just gloss over it by saying this was perhaps just a one off type situation. Perhaps so, and perhaps not. I don't know how to quantify that.
So, I stick with my opinion that there doesn't seem to be enough Slavic yDna to warrant an admixture figure of 48%, but there certainly is a significant amount, where it's all Slavic or part Germanic as well.
The more I think about it. The more it makes sense.
If we input some context into the genetic discussion I think it becomes more obvious who contributed what.
The Hellenic culture spread through Alexanders empire was the spiritual predecessor of the Roman empire. Think Religion, Pantheon of gods being twined, Greek being dual lingua franca to Latin etc. Now if we look at the extent of Alexanders empire, we will see that within a few years of his life he went all the way to India, and with him brought a lot of people, culture, and vice versa brought back a lot of people, culture and goods. So the supply lines, and logistics were in place. By this time it would not be unreasonable to speculate that the Aegean/Anatolian Hellenic world had imported a lot of Levantine, Egyptian (NA), as well as Persian/Caucasian genes. This would be in line with the rumors of Marathon samples plotting Cyprus like. Cyprus was in between these 3 continents, and missed some northern shifts that mainland Greece experienced. Just my guess, during this time already, mainland Greece would have had plenty of Anatolian and Near Eastern genes, through colonies these genes could have spread to Magna Grecia, and through skilled labor, artisans, soldiers, slaves etc later been also employed by the Romans. This IMHO is quite in line with what we see in the Antonia paper. And likely what these new (not-only)Etruscan samples signify as far as legacy. In fact I think it is not coincidental, that after the fall/split of the Roman empire, with the rise of Islam, Crusades, Ottomans, such faucets of eastern shifted genes dry up. Making way for more northern shift in the peninsula, as well as beyond, but also the resurgence of C6 (since we have discussed at length how Roman metropolises were population sinks, unable to maintain their numbers, and constantly needing immigration).
I feel the discourse over the years, and the fracturing of the fora has lead to these dead end, party like arguments back and forth.
Since this is stuff we knew all along, even before genetics. Just pick any random 10 Romans/Ancient Greeks of note, and count how many of them had foreign ancestry one way or the other. That is the nature of any empire, funneling resources, humans or other, from the periphery to the center.
It is not "unreasonable" to speculate but this theory has its flaws:
1) it might not be a "sensible topic", but ancient Greeks were vehemently xenophobic and racist ("race" meant as any assigned collective of people based on ancestry; Greeks had ideas of ethnicity and the idea of Greekness had a requirement of blood to it; of course this is a generalization, that holds strongest in the classical period and becomes somewhat weaker in the hellenistic times, but I have read that Greeks from Europe saw other Greeks, or hellenophones, from Asia with some mistrust; Romans weren't much different, Juvenal is an example for this attitude), so it seems hard to believe that the average Greek by that time was Cypriot-like. I'd guess that Greeks with that genetic profile existed in the Levant.
2) It seems we have from the limes paper the first anatolian samples from the roman period and it looks like they were half balkan_IA and half Anatolia_BA ; they could have been Greeks from Anatolia or maybe they were representative of Anatolia at large, in either case, it doesn't look like you can explain the purported east med shift here since it is ashkelon-like(even if interpreted as an average it means you need a much more southern gene flow).
3) To be exhaustive, the Antonio paper showed that C6 individuals existed also in the imperial period, and after the fall of the empire the C4( and C5 if I recall correctly) tail disappears, and it is possible to explain the C6 as a mixture of C7 and C5 (it doesn't seem possible with C4 for reasons I've expressed earlier), but it doesn't explain why C6 individuals already existed in Italy. Future papers are needed.
The more I think about it. The more it makes sense.
If we input some context into the genetic discussion I think it becomes more obvious who contributed what.
The Hellenic culture spread through Alexanders empire was the spiritual predecessor of the Roman empire. Think Religion, Pantheon of gods being twined, Greek being dual lingua franca to Latin etc. Now if we look at the extent of Alexanders empire, we will see that within a few years of his life he went all the way to India, and with him brought a lot of people, culture, and vice versa brought back a lot of people, culture and goods. So the supply lines, and logistics were in place. By this time it would not be unreasonable to speculate that the Aegean/Anatolian Hellenic world had imported a lot of Levantine, Egyptian (NA), as well as Persian/Caucasian genes. This would be in line with the rumors of Marathon samples plotting Cyprus like. Cyprus was in between these 3 continents, and missed some northern shifts that mainland Greece experienced. Just my guess, during this time already, mainland Greece would have had plenty of Anatolian and Near Eastern genes, through colonies these genes could have spread to Magna Grecia, and through skilled labor, artisans, soldiers, slaves etc later been also employed by the Romans. This IMHO is quite in line with what we see in the Antonia paper. And likely what these new (not-only)Etruscan samples signify as far as legacy. In fact I think it is not coincidental, that after the fall/split of the Roman empire, with the rise of Islam, Crusades, Ottomans, such faucets of eastern shifted genes dry up. Making way for more northern shift in the peninsula, as well as beyond, but also the resurgence of C6 (since we have discussed at length how Roman metropolises were population sinks, unable to maintain their numbers, and constantly needing immigration).
I feel the discourse over the years, and the fracturing of the fora has lead to these dead end, party like arguments back and forth.
Since this is stuff we knew all along, even before genetics. Just pick any random 10 Romans/Ancient Greeks of note, and count how many of them had foreign ancestry one way or the other. That is the nature of any empire, funneling resources, humans or other, from the periphery to the center.
I thought Z36 was more Celtic. Why do you see it as Italic/Roman?
I thought Z36 was more Celtic. Why do you see it as Italic/Roman?
I think it's an error done by the academics related to the "average" sample of Medieval Tuscans.
When I ran the "average" medieval Tuscany as a sample source versus Swedes and Imperial Tuscany. I got 19% Swedish.
I have 5 samples out of 9.
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_East_Med_Profile:ETR014
Distance: 5.8434% / 0.05843383100.0 ITA_Etruria_Imperial
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR013
Distance: 4.2658% / 0.0426580097.8 ITA_Etruria_Imperial 2.2 SWE_IA
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR010
Distance: 4.1774% / 0.0417742994.0 ITA_Etruria_Imperial 6.0 SWE_IA
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR007
Distance: 3.9967% / 0.0399669876.6 ITA_Etruria_Imperial 23.4 SWE_IA
Target: Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_Central_Italian_Profile:ETR003
Distance: 3.7818% / 0.0378179590.4 ITA_Etruria_Imperial 9.6 SWE_IA
As we see 1 East-Med Medieval Tuscan cannot be modeled, he comes as fully Imperial Tuscan. It's also obvious on the PCA if you add Germanic the average Imperial it only becomes more distant from that particular sample. The one that plots more northern probably scores 20%, as for those in the Middle vary from 2.2% to 9.6% as seen in G25. I suppose if you remove the 2 outliers you will get a one digit percentage. The fit is not tight though
(If you use Pre-Roman Etruscan vs Imperial Tuscan vs Iron Age Swede, you loose nearly all the Germanic and get a better fit.)
So these xenophobic Greeks went far and wide creating colonies among the Xenoi, the foreigners. These xenophobic Athenians also proceeded to import all kinds of artisans from all over the known world. Don't read Demosthenes Phillipiads as anything other than what they are, a fading Athens trying to assert its supremacy by putting down their political rivals, something that you can see in how teenagers behave towards each other.It is not "unreasonable" to speculate but this theory has its flaws:
1) it might not be a "sensible topic", but ancient Greeks were vehemently xenophobic and racist ("race" meant as any assigned collective of people based on ancestry; Greeks had ideas of ethnicity and the idea of Greekness had a requirement of blood to it; of course this is a generalization, that holds strongest in the classical period and becomes somewhat weaker in the hellenistic times, but I have read that Greeks from Europe saw other Greeks, or hellenophones, from Asia with some mistrust; Romans weren't much different, Juvenal is an example for this attitude), so it seems hard to believe that the average Greek by that time was Cypriot-like. I'd guess that Greeks with that genetic profile existed in the Levant.
2) It seems we have from the limes paper the first anatolian samples from the roman period and it looks like they were half balkan_IA and half Anatolia_BA ; they could have been Greeks from Anatolia or maybe they were representative of Anatolia at large, in either case, it doesn't look like you can explain the purported east med shift here since it is ashkelon-like(even if interpreted as an average it means you need a much more southern gene flow).
3) To be exhaustive, the Antonio paper showed that C6 individuals existed also in the imperial period, and after the fall of the empire the C4( and C5 if I recall correctly) tail disappears, and it is possible to explain the C6 as a mixture of C7 and C5 (it doesn't seem possible with C4 for reasons I've expressed earlier), but it doesn't explain why C6 individuals already existed in Italy. Future papers are needed.
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