Magna Graecia

[Angela]

This is interesting.

Distance to:	NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
13.16227564	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
14.18411435	Italian_Calabria
14.65788866	Italian_Campania
16.09315693	Italian_Sicily
16.23891930	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
16.50677134	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
17.28359048	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.79665928	Italian_Apulia
19.07527195	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

---

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
10.47206761	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
10.89450320	Italian_Campania
11.83382440	Italian_Calabria
12.69825972	Italian_Sicily
14.33024773	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
14.34289371	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
14.95408640	Italian_Apulia
15.12117059	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.89936242	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

---

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
7.88512524	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.83022400	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
12.25552936	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.58509436	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.95431116	Italian_Campania
15.24896718	Italian_Sicily
15.31707544	Italian_Calabria
17.31559124	Italian_Apulia
17.39152380	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

---

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
9.79325278	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.89257752	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.21419666	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
13.64170810	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.90479773	Italian_Campania
14.16307876	Italian_Calabria
15.23016087	Italian_Sicily
15.27818379	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020
17.99037243	Italian_Apulia

---

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
15.67909755	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
16.02105802	Italian_Calabria
16.12751996	Italian_Campania
17.80956204	Italian_Sicily
19.76769587	Italian_Apulia
19.84419059	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
19.98707833	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
20.02632018	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
23.55776730	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Only if you didn't use G25. Who knows if the coordinaates are correct?

[ihype02]

Distance to:	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
0.04754349	Italian_Campania
0.04775060	Italian_Apulia
0.04848198	Italian_Basilicata
0.04888284	Italian_Calabria
0.05285030	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05328736	Sicilian_East
0.05810552	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.06065999	Sicilian_West
0.07084134	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

---

Distance to:	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
0.05106209	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05613572	Sicilian_East
0.05715079	Italian_Apulia
0.05753055	Italian_Campania
0.05772763	Italian_Calabria
0.06013187	Italian_Basilicata
0.06235220	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.06648583	Sicilian_West
0.06947264	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878

---

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.04874822	Italian_Calabria
0.04900044	Italian_Campania
0.05010230	Italian_Basilicata
0.05109016	Italian_Apulia
0.05363381	Sicilian_East
0.05534934	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.06130159	Sicilian_West
0.06218298	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.07786440	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

---

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.04473500	Italian_Calabria
0.04595238	Sicilian_East
0.04814068	Italian_Apulia
0.04896344	Italian_Campania
0.04930462	Italian_Basilicata
0.05112824	Sicilian_West
0.05821566	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.07838502	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.08171779	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

---

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.05961906	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.06257013	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.07065491	Italian_Calabria
0.07129528	Italian_Campania
0.07320377	Sicilian_East
0.07396523	Italian_Basilicata
0.07415641	Italian_Apulia
0.07689988	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.07896230	Sicilian_West

---

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.06007139	Italian_Calabria
0.06167989	Italian_Campania
0.06206776	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.06315615	Italian_Apulia
0.06340946	Italian_Basilicata
0.06658523	Sicilian_East
0.06670976	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.07472913	Sicilian_West
0.07861131	ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

[ihype02]

Only if you didn't use G25. Who knows if the coordinaates are correct?

It's K12b, look at G25 at the post number 127.

[ihype02]

Distance to:	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04766329	Italian_Apulia
0.04778804	Italian_Campania
0.04857601	Italian_Calabria
0.04981762	Italian_Basilicata
0.04994000	Sicilian_East
0.05175499	ITA_Sicily_LBA

---

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean
0.04621737	Italian_Calabria
0.04809307	Italian_Campania
0.04995370	Italian_Apulia
0.04999673	Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882	Sicilian_East
0.05545855	ITA_Sicily_LBA

Distance to:	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.05175499	ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05206948	Greek_Dodecanese
0.05330776	Greek_Kos
0.05421812	Greek_Crete
0.05672532	Greek_Izmir
0.05863355	Greek_Laconia
0.06288515	Greek_Peloponnese
0.06765953	Greek_Thessaly
0.07155573	Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07451102	Greek_Macedonia
0.07512192	Greek_Cappadocia
0.07620747	Greek_Central_Macedonia

[Jovialis]

[Angela]

Moral of the story for me, is, if you don't know the exact timeline for each place then you don't know how to interpret the genetics of the bones you find from a certain date. The history of Apulia is a prime case in point. No point in looking for Greeks in northern Apulia, when it's a place where the Greek conquest occurs later.

Also note how late in the story the "Italic" Brutti appear on the scene; another thing the archaeologists have to keep in mind, and also that without "native" Bronze Age samples there's a hole in the puzzle. As I've said before, the Bronze Age Greek artifacts found in mainland Italy were there because the Greeks were trading with the "natives". When geneticists study a "Greek" sample, that Greek sample may be admixed with the genes of the "local" inhabitants whom they encountered.

Interesting how Campania and Calabria and Basilicata and Apulia (actually Salento province) usually show up closest to ancient Greek samples, and they're precisely the areas which were first and continuously under Greek rule.

I always thought my husband looked like Riace Warrior A come to life. Makes sense, I suppose. Incidentally, two of his four grandparents lived within a two hour walk of the sea port where the Bronzes were found. A third came from the still Greek speaking area right in the toe of Reggio, and a fourth from Napoli. His whole ancestry is tied in with the Greeks. So, it also makes sense he was a Classics major at university. Something called out to him.

[ihype02]

"Riace Bronzes" and "The Boxer at Rest" sculptures looks more of a Renaissance level than ancient Greek or Roman. I think they look better uncolored IMHO.

[ihype02]

According to Strabo, Thracians were the majority in Macedonia, however it does not matter if they were 10% or 80% of overall population they would never create a greater shift than that of the Medieval Slavs because Thracians overlapped with Ancient Macedonians in the first place.

The distance of Modern Sicilians to Ancient Greeks is about +80% as big as the distance of LBA Sicilians to Ancient Greeks. ((0.04621737/0.05545855)*100)>80

[Angela]

It just took us that long to get back to that level; with the help of statues and copies of statues dug up all over Italy, of course.

When I first saw colorized marble statues it was very off putting. At first I didn't like them. The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that the problem was my "fake" indoctrination into ancient art, promulgated by art "critics" hundreds of years later who misunderstood them, and promulgated a view of Classical art as white and "pure" and austere.

It was nothing of the sort. If one wants to understand these people one has to see their art as they meant it to be seen. Once your "eye" adjusts it can be appreciated more. I, for example, find Rome "reconstructed" as it might have looked far more beautiful than the all white almost "Cubist" vision we were fed. The same goes for Ancient Greece.






As for the Riace Bronzes, I don't find it jarring at all. I really like them all tanned and brown and gleaming after being oiled down.:) They look as if they could walk off the podiums, all 6'6" of them.

[IMG][/IMG]



I have a fondness for certain photoshop artists who take a white bust from ancient art and not only colorize but modernize it; it helps you see them as real people.
In this one done of Augustus' wife Livia, she winds up looking like any one of thousands of Italian women.



She might have been more fair, however. Many of the Claudii are described as fair.

I think they also did an excellent job with Cleopatra:


From the contemporaneous coins engraved with her image, I think she might have been a Melina Kanakaredes type:

[Malaparte]

Also note how late in the story the "Italic" Brutti appear on the scene; another thing the archaeologists have to keep in mind, and also that without "native" Bronze Age samples there's a hole in the puzzle. As I've said before, the Bronze Age Greek artifacts found in mainland Italy were there because the Greeks were trading with the "natives". When geneticists study a "Greek" sample, that Greek sample may be admixed with the genes of the "local" inhabitants whom they encountered.

Interesting how Campania and Calabria and Basilicata and Apulia (actually Salento province) usually show up closest to ancient Greek samples, and they're precisely the areas which were first and continuously under Greek rule.

With the major exception of Naples and its environs, however, my impression is that the Ionian shores were more densely settled by Greeks than the Tyrrhenian side. I wonder if there might be a lasting autosomal difference in this regard.

Looking at that cool video Angela attached, the Ionian city-states of Calabria expanded across the peninsula to control both shores, but the hold on the western side seems relatively precarious.

Whether Greek admixture in Southern Italian populations varies between shores, or whether populations would have homogenized over the course of 2500 years, is a question that obviously cannot be addressed without Bronze Age samples.

[ihype02]

With the major exception of Naples and its environs, however, my impression is that the Ionian shores were more densely settled by Greeks than the Tyrrhenian side. I wonder if there might be a lasting autosomal difference in this regard.

Looking at that cool video Angela attached, the Ionian city-states of Calabria expanded across the peninsula to control both shores, but the hold on the western side seems relatively precarious.

Whether Greek admixture in Southern Italian populations varies between shores, or whether populations would have homogenized over the course of 2500 years, is a question that obviously cannot be addressed without Bronze Age samples.

Most city states of Calabria were Doric-speaking. There were, however, 3 Ionian city-states there according to IT wiki, which has the most detailed information regarding Magna Graecia. There is one problem regarding estimating the Greek admixture. I believe that Greeks remained segregated from Italic people for a very long time, probably even during the Hellenistic Era. And even if they didn't we cannot be sure they if were admixed maximally to that extend we get an uniform genetic cluster that we can we estimate the Greek admixture. (Like IA Sicilians vs Classical Greeks). If Native Sicilians were more eastern shifted by the time of 200 BC, we don't know if that shift was finished or not if you get what I am saying.

We would actually need a population census, even the Y-DNA such as J2a, G2a and R1b-z2103 are hard to distinguish. (Unlike the Germanic lines for example.)

[Malaparte]

Most city states of Calabria were Doric-speaking. There were, however, 3 Ionian city-states there according to IT wiki,

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring to the Ionian Sea, not the origin of the colonies. But I will check IT wiki regardless.

However, given that Calabria is only 68 miles wide at its widest point, I doubt that there is a lasting autosomal difference between eastern and western shores. Or perhaps there is a difference between inland mountain regions and coastal regions, which might be more relevant in Basilicata.

[Angela]

Southern Italians from different provinces are much more similar to one another than are Northern Italians from different provinces. That's a different way of saying that there's more diversity in the north than in the south.

[ihype02]

Pasteum was broadly Mycenaean-like by 600BC-400BC. Later we will significant native Italian influence:
It is not until the end of the fifth century BC that the city is mentioned, when according to Strabo, the city was conquered by the Lucanians. From the archaeological evidence it appears that the two cultures, Greek and Oscan, were able to thrive alongside one another.
Many tomb paintings show horses and horse-racing, a passion of the Lucanian elites.




Latin temple:

In the central part of the complex is the Roman Forum, thought to have been built on the site of the preceding Greek agora. On the north side of the forum is a small Roman temple, dated to 200 BC. It was dedicated to the Capitoline Triad, Jupiter, Juno and Minerva
Greek temple in Pasteum:

[ihype02]

The fact that "Mycenaean-like" cluster survived from 700BC to 300BC in Campania (till the period they were conquered) in a sea of Italian people similar to Iberia, shows how "racist" and endogamous old Greeks were. Pureness of blood in ethnically diverse places like Athens would be you an advantage in life. Athens was an Ionic supremacist city state.

[kingjohn]

The fact that "Mycenaean-like" cluster survived from 700BC to 300BC in Campania (till the period they were conquered) in a sea of Italian people similar to Iberia, shows how "racist" and endogamous old Greeks were. Pureness of blood in ethnically diverse places like Athens would be you an advantage in life. Athens was an Ionic supremacist city state.

it just show they were isolated
the upcoming paper greek cluster -is based on samples from
pithekoussai
that is this island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia

p.s
usually populations in islands are more isolated genetically speaking
you might have a point though that they felt superior to others because of there advanced culture

[ihype02]

it just show they were isolated
the upcoming paper greek cluster -is based on samples from
pithekoussai
that is this island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia

p.s
usually populations in islands are more isolated genetically speaking
you might have a point though that they felt superior to others because of there advanced culture

Most Greek cities of Campania are very close to Pithekoussai. I think we will see Italic admixture after 300BC.

An acropolis site of the Monte Vico area was inhabited from the Bronze Age, as Mycenaean and Iron Age pottery findings attest. Euboean Greeks from Eretria and Chalcis arrived in the 8th century BC to establish an emporium for trade with the Etruscans of the mainland. This settlement was home to a mixed population of Greeks, Etruscans, and Phoenicians. Because of its fine harbor and the safety from raids afforded by the sea, the settlement of Pithecusae became successful through trade in iron and with mainland Italy; in 700 BC Pithecusae was home to 5,000–10,000 people.^[12]

If there was one mixed city free Greek city of pre-300BC Campania this one should have been on top of the list.

[kingjohn]

Most Greek cities of Campania are very close to Pithekoussai. I think we will see Italic admixture after 300BC.

An acropolis site of the Monte Vico area was inhabited from the Bronze Age, as Mycenaean and Iron Age pottery findings attest. Euboean Greeks from Eretria and Chalcis arrived in the 8th century BC to establish an emporium for trade with the Etruscans of the mainland. This settlement was home to a mixed population of Greeks, Etruscans, and Phoenicians. Because of its fine harbor and the safety from raids afforded by the sea, the settlement of Pithecusae became successful through trade in iron and with mainland Italy; in 700 BC Pithecusae was home to 5,000–10,000 people.^[12]

If there is one mixed city free Greek city of pre-300BC Campania this one should have been on top of the list.

to bad this paper is only have 1 sample from this island
that is not enough to draw big conclusions
also chance for e-v13 to show up is not high with only 1 sample ( and not sure it is even a male)
we know j2 for sure was present among the ancient greeks from previews papers

[Angela]

I was the one who pointed out that in Athens even non-Athenians had fewer rights, and the children of mixed couples did not have equal rights to the "pure" born. That doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Furthermore, divisions that existed pre the Roman conquest don't tell us anything about subsequent mixings. It's been more than 2000 years since these colonies were founded, more than enough time for the population to become relatively homogeneous, especially since the entire south of Italy was under one government, even if under different guises, since the fall of the Roman Empire.

Even the Anatolian Neolithic farmers who went to Europe and the WHG mingled eventually, even if it took a thousand years.

I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that the Greeks had a big influence in Southern Italy, despite your bias against them and their accomplishments.

[ihype02]

I was the one who pointed out that in Athens even non-Athenians had fewer rights, and the children of mixed couples did not have equal rights to the "pure" born. That doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Furthermore, divisions that existed pre the Roman conquest don't tell us anything about subsequent mixings. It's been more than 2000 years since these colonies were founded, more than enough time for the population to become relatively homogeneous, especially since the entire south of Italy was under one government, even if under different guises, since the fall of the Roman Empire.

Even the Anatolian Neolithic farmers who went to Europe and the WHG mingled eventually, even if it took a thousand years.

I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that the Greeks had a big influence in Southern Italy, despite your bias against them and their accomplishments.

I said free Ancient Greek cities were (likely) isolated from other Native Italians until they lost their freedom and that is until 300BC. Even though I have heard about some Greeks in Sicily taking Sicilian wifes). I don't know how does that correlate with Iron Age Greek influence being big or not.
They had to be mixed sooner or later after they adopted Latin and lost control.

I know that one Ancient Greek city adopted Latin during 200BC that is before Imperial Rome.

Your reading comprehension skills are not my issue. Sorry not sorry.

[bigsnake49]

Maybe the recent immigrants did not take local wives but I can see the second and third generation choosing not to go back to Greece for their brides. The colonies were almost always male dominated in the early days with families coming later.

[ihype02]

Maybe the recent immigrants did not take local wives but I can see the second and third generation choosing not to go back to Greece for their brides. The colonies were almost always male dominated in the early days with families coming later.

Some of them did take some native women, imo, but most of them did not. If the 2 samples are an indicator then they are fairly distant in time so changes should've happen.

[Angela]

I said free Ancient Greek cities were (likely) isolated from other Native Italians until they lost their freedom and that is until 300BC. Even though I have heard about some Greeks in Sicily taking Sicilian wifes). I don't know how does that correlate with Iron Age Greek influence being big or not.
They had to be mixed sooner or later after they adopted Latin and lost control.

I know that one Ancient Greek city adopted Latin during 200BC that is before Imperial Rome

Your reading comprehension skills are not my issue. Sorry not sorry.

We'll have to wait and see for the paper to come out for anything definitive, but to the best of my recollection, the data "leaked", if accurate, does show "admixed" people. As I said in relation to the Athenians, the fact that children with non-Greeks might not have the same rights as the Greek father doesn't mean that such children weren't produced.

You fill this site with so much nonsense about the amount of "Slavic" in Greeks, the paucity of Greek input into Southern Italy and on and on that it's hard to keep track. Even some of your own fellow Albanians are finding it embarrassing.

So long as your biases are so obvious, and your logic so thin, no one is going to take your interpretations seriously.

As to your rude comment, coming from someone who can't write the English language properly, leading to numerous cases where you have to explain your meaning, and in numerous instances has shown he can't understand perfectly clear posts written here, that's pretty silly. Fwiw, I've spent my professional life, which is probably longer than you've been alive, reading and writing law, and I assure you my record is as good in that arena as it has been in population genetics.

FWI, the use of the word "Sorry", when you're going to disagree with someone equates to "Sorry I'm going to have to burst your bubble", or "Sorry I have to say this", not "I'M SORRY".

[ihype02]

We'll have to wait and see for the paper to come out for anything definitive, but to the best of my recollection, the data "leaked", if accurate, does show "admixed" people. As I said in relation to the Athenians, the fact that children with non-Greeks might not have the same rights as the Greek father doesn't mean that such children weren't produced.

You fill this site with so much nonsense about the amount of "Slavic" in Greeks, the paucity of Greek input into Southern Italy and on and on that it's hard to keep track. Even some of your own fellow Albanians are finding it embarrassing.

So long as your biases are so obvious, and your logic so thin, no one is going to take your interpretations seriously.

As to your rude comment, coming from someone who can't write the English language properly, leading to numerous cases where you have to explain your meaning, and in numerous instances has shown he can't understand perfectly clear posts written here, that's pretty silly. Fwiw, I've spent my professional life, which is probably longer than you've been alive, reading and writing law, and I assure you my record is as good in that arena as it has been in population genetics.

FWI, the use of the word "Sorry", when you're going to disagree with someone equates to "Sorry I'm going to have to burst your bubble", or "Sorry I have to say this", not "I'M SORRY".

Sorry not sorry is a slang.

My theories about the Slavic input in Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians that I wrote years ago are now largely proven. Someone even told me that they consider 40% Slavic in Serbs a very high estimate, can't remember who it was.

About the Slavic input in Greece, which I believe you are referring to the comment I made about Thessaly. I know that Thessaly had a large Aromanian presence, and besides that there were Albanians, Venetians, Goths, and medieval Anatolians that were settled from Konya from 10/11th century AD. Of course that 38% North Slavic that I modelled several days ago is ridiculous but some of you will beg for that 38% Slavic back, years later.

I have never written about paucity of Greek colonists in Southern Italy. I challenge you to find one quote of me saying it so.

There is the Pompeii study that is likely going to show what I have been theorizing about the Southern Italian cluster being formed from new Roman migrants (from Middle East) which you accuse me having an agenda for not attributing it as just Greek+Italian (and everything else is little) Iron and Neolithic age romantic ideas.

If they have samples from ~80BC of Oscans in Pompeii, it is going to show a dramatic shift to from Iron Age Campanian-like to Imperial Roman-like. There are even some outliers plotting as Cypriots, which Davidski has seen.

Calling it an agenda does not make it any less true.

[Jovialis]

Sorry not sorry is a slang.

My theories about the Slavic input in Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians that I wrote years ago are now largely proven. Someone even told me that they consider 40% Slavic in Serbs a very high estimate, can't remember who it was.

About the Slavic input in Greece, which I believe you are referring to the comment I made about Thessaly. I know that Thessaly had a large Aromanian presence, and besides that there were Albanians, Venetians, Goths, and medieval Anatolians that were settled from Konya from 10/11th century AD. Of course that 38% North Slavic that I modelled several days ago is ridiculous but some of you will beg for that 38% Slavic back, years later.

I have never written about paucity of Greek colonists in Southern Italy. I challenge you to find one quote of me saying it so.

There is the Pompeii study that is likely going to show what I have been theorizing about the Southern Italian cluster being formed from new Roman migrants (from Middle East) which you accuse me having an agenda for not attributing it as just Greek+Italian (and everything else is little) Iron and Neolithic age romantic ideas.

If they have samples from ~80BC of Oscans in Pompeii, it is going to show a dramatic shift to from Iron Age Campanian-like to Imperial Roman-like. There are even some outliers plotting as Cypriots, which Davidski has seen.

Calling it an agenda does not make it any less true.

We find a pulse of extra CHG throughout the entire Mediterranean, from the Aegean all the way to south eastern Spain; it has been confirmed to come to Sardinia and Sicily in the Bronze age. Are you suggesting that it coming to Southern Italy is a "romantic idea"? Why?


To me, people who only focus on the possibility of it coming from Imperial age immigrants, are just using some suggestions from recent papers as confirmation bias and circular thinking to vindicate 19th and early 20th century Roman historians. Come on, don't tell me you are not one of those guys who takes the written word of historians as gospel despite archaeogenetic research proving otherwise; I know you are based on past posts. Please stop ignoring all of the possibilities, so we can have a true discussion.