Magna Graecia

Angela said:
The coordinates from Vahaduo: Szolad1:Amorim_2018,4.29,3.44,3.25,0,28.24,25.58,0.87,0.18,6.87,3.48,23.79,0

Coordinates from Jovialis' list: Szolad1:Amorim_2018,4.29,3.44,3.25,0,28.24,25.58,0.87,0.18,6.87,3.48,23.79,0



Input them into Dodecad modern populations, and this is what you get. Macedonian Vardars are not close to Mycenaeans.

Distance to:Szolad1:Amorim_2018
6.97954153Macedonian_Vardar
7.08436306Macedonian_South
7.67174687Albanian_Kosovo
7.87953044Macedonian_East
7.91276184Turk_Makedonya
7.98405912Macedonian_Polog
8.01277730Greek_Macedonia
8.05873439Greek_Thessaly
8.35270615Moldovan_Gagauz
8.63549072Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
8.68720899Bulgarian_East
8.69753413Greek_Thrace
8.73941646Bulgarian_Thrace
9.19169190Turk_Deliorman
9.28766924Greek_Thessaloniki
9.41569966Bulgarian_Central
9.44255262Albanian
9.55627543Italian_Friuli_VG
9.56961337Turk_Trakya
9.67777350Moldovan_South
10.01265699Bulgarian_West
10.06310588Romanian
10.23147594Pomak_Bulgaria
10.37996146Italian_Lazio
10.39834121Italian_Romagna


Input into the Dodecad K12b spreadsheet:
Distance to:Szolad1:Amorim_2018
6.68335993Szolad37:Amorim_2018
6.78356838ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
7.35087750MAS001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
7.56208305Scythian:scy305:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
7.69709686Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
8.24094655Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
8.64908666Szolad36:Amorim_2018
8.87133586Szolad31:Amorim_2018
8.98967185Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
9.28394313Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
9.37160072Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
9.43235920Collegno36:Amorim_2018
9.58492045Collegno23:Amorim_2018
9.64546526Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
9.89680251Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR310:Veeramah_2018
9.99309762Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
10.02695866Szolad43:Amorim_2018
10.14660534C6-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1549:Antonio_2019
10.16369519C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
10.32756990NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
10.43775359C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
10.46466913Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
10.65432307Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
10.72100742I3593:Olalde_2018
10.80285148TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021


Very nice correlation.

Don't know where you're getting your coordinates or what Szolad 01 might be; that's not the paper's nomenclature.

A quick look at the admixture sheet in Amorim et al for SZ1 shows a sample not even 100% modern Tuscan like, much less Mycenaean like.
Click to expand...

Yeah it probably has wrong coordinates. You don't get such drastic different results ever.
 
^^Well, I'd dump whatever source you're using because clearly whoever created the coordinates made a serious error. The results obviously don't match the admixture chart for the Amorim et al SZ1.

Furthermore, it puts all modeling done with this source into question.
 
Angela said:
^^Well, I'd dump whatever source you're using because clearly whoever created the coordinates made a serious error. The results obviously don't match the admixture chart for the Amorim et al SZ1.

Furthermore, it puts all modeling done with this source into question.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I only experiment with G25 I never really take percentages seriously unless they are backed up by Y-DNA. I am really skeptical about everything.

I am extremely skeptical about the amount of Anatolian admixture in Mainland Greece regardless what those calculators say.
 
People at anthrogenica have questioned why we on this site created new coordinates for K12b. This is why.

He can't be trusted. Any results based on his programs can't be trusted. There's a reason his results never match those of the academic papers. I've been pointing this out for years.

That's not to say one should deny what is clearly in the admixture of certain people because one doesn't like the results. One can argue with an interpretation of data, but the data is fact IF the person creating the program is honest. That's why transparency is key, i.e. there's a reason for those long pages in papers or the Supplement on the methodology, including the statistics. It's so anyone can reproduce the runs and see if the results are honest. Eurogenes has never, ever, posted his methodology. Anyone who doesn't, doesn't deserve to be given credence. Plus, this isn't the first time blatant "errors" have been found in his data.

I don't know if you know the phrase, but "garbage in, garbage out".
 
This is interesting.

Distance to:NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
13.16227564Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
14.18411435Italian_Calabria
14.65788866Italian_Campania
16.09315693Italian_Sicily
16.23891930Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
16.50677134Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
17.28359048Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.79665928Italian_Apulia
19.07527195Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
10.47206761Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
10.89450320Italian_Campania
11.83382440Italian_Calabria
12.69825972Italian_Sicily
14.33024773Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
14.34289371Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
14.95408640Italian_Apulia
15.12117059Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.89936242Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
7.88512524Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.83022400Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
12.25552936Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.58509436Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.95431116Italian_Campania
15.24896718Italian_Sicily
15.31707544Italian_Calabria
17.31559124Italian_Apulia
17.39152380Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
9.79325278Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.89257752Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.21419666Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
13.64170810Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.90479773Italian_Campania
14.16307876Italian_Calabria
15.23016087Italian_Sicily
15.27818379Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020
17.99037243Italian_Apulia

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
15.67909755Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
16.02105802Italian_Calabria
16.12751996Italian_Campania
17.80956204Italian_Sicily
19.76769587Italian_Apulia
19.84419059Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
19.98707833Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
20.02632018Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
23.55776730Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

 
ihype02 said:
This is interesting.

Distance to:NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
13.16227564Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
14.18411435Italian_Calabria
14.65788866Italian_Campania
16.09315693Italian_Sicily
16.23891930Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
16.50677134Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
17.28359048Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.79665928Italian_Apulia
19.07527195Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
10.47206761Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
10.89450320Italian_Campania
11.83382440Italian_Calabria
12.69825972Italian_Sicily
14.33024773Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
14.34289371Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
14.95408640Italian_Apulia
15.12117059Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
18.89936242Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
7.88512524Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.83022400Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
12.25552936Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.58509436Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.95431116Italian_Campania
15.24896718Italian_Sicily
15.31707544Italian_Calabria
17.31559124Italian_Apulia
17.39152380Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
9.79325278Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
11.89257752Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
12.21419666Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
13.64170810Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
13.90479773Italian_Campania
14.16307876Italian_Calabria
15.23016087Italian_Sicily
15.27818379Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020
17.99037243Italian_Apulia

Distance to:Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
15.67909755Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
16.02105802Italian_Calabria
16.12751996Italian_Campania
17.80956204Italian_Sicily
19.76769587Italian_Apulia
19.84419059Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
19.98707833Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
20.02632018Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
23.55776730Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020
Click to expand...

Only if you didn't use G25. Who knows if the coordinaates are correct?
 
Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
0.04754349Italian_Campania
0.04775060Italian_Apulia
0.04848198Italian_Basilicata
0.04888284Italian_Calabria
0.05285030ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05328736Sicilian_East
0.05810552ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.06065999Sicilian_West
0.07084134ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
0.05106209ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05613572Sicilian_East
0.05715079Italian_Apulia
0.05753055Italian_Campania
0.05772763Italian_Calabria
0.06013187Italian_Basilicata
0.06235220ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.06648583Sicilian_West
0.06947264ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878

Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.04874822Italian_Calabria
0.04900044Italian_Campania
0.05010230Italian_Basilicata
0.05109016Italian_Apulia
0.05363381Sicilian_East
0.05534934ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.06130159Sicilian_West
0.06218298ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.07786440ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.04473500Italian_Calabria
0.04595238Sicilian_East
0.04814068Italian_Apulia
0.04896344Italian_Campania
0.04930462Italian_Basilicata
0.05112824Sicilian_West
0.05821566ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.07838502ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.08171779ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.05961906ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.06257013ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.07065491Italian_Calabria
0.07129528Italian_Campania
0.07320377Sicilian_East
0.07396523Italian_Basilicata
0.07415641Italian_Apulia
0.07689988ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.07896230Sicilian_West

Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.06007139Italian_Calabria
0.06167989Italian_Campania
0.06206776ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.06315615Italian_Apulia
0.06340946Italian_Basilicata
0.06658523Sicilian_East
0.06670976ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.07472913Sicilian_West
0.07861131ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372

 
Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04766329Italian_Apulia
0.04778804Italian_Campania
0.04857601Italian_Calabria
0.04981762Italian_Basilicata
0.04994000Sicilian_East
0.05175499ITA_Sicily_LBA

Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean
0.04621737Italian_Calabria
0.04809307Italian_Campania
0.04995370Italian_Apulia
0.04999673Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882Sicilian_East
0.05545855ITA_Sicily_LBA

Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.05175499ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05206948Greek_Dodecanese
0.05330776Greek_Kos
0.05421812Greek_Crete
0.05672532Greek_Izmir
0.05863355Greek_Laconia
0.06288515Greek_Peloponnese
0.06765953Greek_Thessaly
0.07155573Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07451102Greek_Macedonia
0.07512192Greek_Cappadocia
0.07620747Greek_Central_Macedonia
 
Jovialis said:
Click to expand...

Moral of the story for me, is, if you don't know the exact timeline for each place then you don't know how to interpret the genetics of the bones you find from a certain date. The history of Apulia is a prime case in point. No point in looking for Greeks in northern Apulia, when it's a place where the Greek conquest occurs later.

Also note how late in the story the "Italic" Brutti appear on the scene; another thing the archaeologists have to keep in mind, and also that without "native" Bronze Age samples there's a hole in the puzzle. As I've said before, the Bronze Age Greek artifacts found in mainland Italy were there because the Greeks were trading with the "natives". When geneticists study a "Greek" sample, that Greek sample may be admixed with the genes of the "local" inhabitants whom they encountered.

Interesting how Campania and Calabria and Basilicata and Apulia (actually Salento province) usually show up closest to ancient Greek samples, and they're precisely the areas which were first and continuously under Greek rule.

I always thought my husband looked like Riace Warrior A come to life. Makes sense, I suppose. Incidentally, two of his four grandparents lived within a two hour walk of the sea port where the Bronzes were found. A third came from the still Greek speaking area right in the toe of Reggio, and a fourth from Napoli. His whole ancestry is tied in with the Greeks. So, it also makes sense he was a Classics major at university. Something called out to him.
 
"Riace Bronzes" and "The Boxer at Rest" sculptures looks more of a Renaissance level than ancient Greek or Roman. I think they look better uncolored IMHO.
 
According to Strabo, Thracians were the majority in Macedonia, however it does not matter if they were 10% or 80% of overall population they would never create a greater shift than that of the Medieval Slavs because Thracians overlapped with Ancient Macedonians in the first place.

The distance of Modern Sicilians to Ancient Greeks is about +80% as big as the distance of LBA Sicilians to Ancient Greeks. ((0.04621737/0.05545855)*100)>80
 
It just took us that long to get back to that level; with the help of statues and copies of statues dug up all over Italy, of course.

When I first saw colorized marble statues it was very off putting. At first I didn't like them. The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that the problem was my "fake" indoctrination into ancient art, promulgated by art "critics" hundreds of years later who misunderstood them, and promulgated a view of Classical art as white and "pure" and austere.

It was nothing of the sort. If one wants to understand these people one has to see their art as they meant it to be seen. Once your "eye" adjusts it can be appreciated more. I, for example, find Rome "reconstructed" as it might have looked far more beautiful than the all white almost "Cubist" vision we were fed. The same goes for Ancient Greece.




As for the Riace Bronzes, I don't find it jarring at all. I really like them all tanned and brown and gleaming after being oiled down.:) They look as if they could walk off the podiums, all 6'6" of them.

DJCwbV5.png
[/IMG]



I have a fondness for certain photoshop artists who take a white bust from ancient art and not only colorize but modernize it; it helps you see them as real people.
In this one done of Augustus' wife Livia, she winds up looking like any one of thousands of Italian women.
5171821-livia.jpg

r70lUgN.png


She might have been more fair, however. Many of the Claudii are described as fair.

I think they also did an excellent job with Cleopatra:
royaltynowhistoricalportraits014.jpg


From the contemporaneous coins engraved with her image, I think she might have been a Melina Kanakaredes type:

normal_Parade-Union.jpg


Fifteen-Minutes-Press-Conference-March-1-2001-melina-kanakaredes-15218323-344-513.jpg



melina_kanakaredes_photo5.jpg

melina_kanakaredes_photo5.jpg
 
Last edited:
Angela said:
Also note how late in the story the "Italic" Brutti appear on the scene; another thing the archaeologists have to keep in mind, and also that without "native" Bronze Age samples there's a hole in the puzzle. As I've said before, the Bronze Age Greek artifacts found in mainland Italy were there because the Greeks were trading with the "natives". When geneticists study a "Greek" sample, that Greek sample may be admixed with the genes of the "local" inhabitants whom they encountered.

Interesting how Campania and Calabria and Basilicata and Apulia (actually Salento province) usually show up closest to ancient Greek samples, and they're precisely the areas which were first and continuously under Greek rule.
Click to expand...

With the major exception of Naples and its environs, however, my impression is that the Ionian shores were more densely settled by Greeks than the Tyrrhenian side. I wonder if there might be a lasting autosomal difference in this regard.

Looking at that cool video Angela attached, the Ionian city-states of Calabria expanded across the peninsula to control both shores, but the hold on the western side seems relatively precarious.

Whether Greek admixture in Southern Italian populations varies between shores, or whether populations would have homogenized over the course of 2500 years, is a question that obviously cannot be addressed without Bronze Age samples.
 
Malaparte said:
With the major exception of Naples and its environs, however, my impression is that the Ionian shores were more densely settled by Greeks than the Tyrrhenian side. I wonder if there might be a lasting autosomal difference in this regard.

Looking at that cool video Angela attached, the Ionian city-states of Calabria expanded across the peninsula to control both shores, but the hold on the western side seems relatively precarious.

Whether Greek admixture in Southern Italian populations varies between shores, or whether populations would have homogenized over the course of 2500 years, is a question that obviously cannot be addressed without Bronze Age samples.
Click to expand...

Most city states of Calabria were Doric-speaking. There were, however, 3 Ionian city-states there according to IT wiki, which has the most detailed information regarding Magna Graecia. There is one problem regarding estimating the Greek admixture. I believe that Greeks remained segregated from Italic people for a very long time, probably even during the Hellenistic Era. And even if they didn't we cannot be sure they if were admixed maximally to that extend we get an uniform genetic cluster that we can we estimate the Greek admixture. (Like IA Sicilians vs Classical Greeks). If Native Sicilians were more eastern shifted by the time of 200 BC, we don't know if that shift was finished or not if you get what I am saying.

We would actually need a population census, even the Y-DNA such as J2a, G2a and R1b-z2103 are hard to distinguish. (Unlike the Germanic lines for example.)
 
ihype02 said:
Most city states of Calabria were Doric-speaking. There were, however, 3 Ionian city-states there according to IT wiki,
Click to expand...

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring to the Ionian Sea, not the origin of the colonies. But I will check IT wiki regardless.

However, given that Calabria is only 68 miles wide at its widest point, I doubt that there is a lasting autosomal difference between eastern and western shores. Or perhaps there is a difference between inland mountain regions and coastal regions, which might be more relevant in Basilicata.
 
Southern Italians from different provinces are much more similar to one another than are Northern Italians from different provinces. That's a different way of saying that there's more diversity in the north than in the south.
 
Pasteum was broadly Mycenaean-like by 600BC-400BC. Later we will significant native Italian influence:
It is not until the end of the fifth century BC that the city is mentioned, when according to Strabo, the city was conquered by the Lucanians. From the archaeological evidence it appears that the two cultures, Greek and Oscan, were able to thrive alongside one another.
Many tomb paintings show horses and horse-racing, a passion of the Lucanian elites.

800px-Grab_des_schwarzen_Ritters_Ritter.jpg

1920px-Lucanian_fresco_tomb_painting_of_a_man_racing_a_chariot_past_the_winning_post%2C_3rd_century_BC%2C_PaestrumPaestum_Archaeological_Museum_%2814599820241%29.jpg


Latin temple:

In the central part of the complex is the Roman Forum, thought to have been built on the site of the preceding Greek agora. On the north side of the forum is a small Roman temple, dated to 200 BC. It was dedicated to the Capitoline Triad, Jupiter, Juno and Minerva
Greek temple in Pasteum:
Hera_temple_II_-_Paestum_-_Poseidonia_-_July_13th_2013_-_04.jpg
 
The fact that "Mycenaean-like" cluster survived from 700BC to 300BC in Campania (till the period they were conquered) in a sea of Italian people similar to Iberia, shows how "racist" and endogamous old Greeks were. Pureness of blood in ethnically diverse places like Athens would be you an advantage in life. Athens was an Ionic supremacist city state.
 
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