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Thread: Magna Graecia

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    Magna Graecia

    I decided to make a new thread out of the discussion of Magna Graecia in the Albanian Linguistics thread.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 08-10-21 at 15:38. Reason: New Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Messapi could see Albania from their windows, … for real :) and vice-versa.

    Many historians don’t know it, … they can't see the forest for the trees.
    was it ancient Epirus as Pyrrhus of Epirus, King of the Epirotes, he who invaded and attacked Rome came from modern Viore Albania
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Do they explain in detail how they know its Makedonian Greek and not Epirotic Greek or another North Western version?

    In addition, that coloured map further simplifies their claims which can be challenged solely by the existence of both Illyrian and Epirotic Atintani, Dessaretae, Amantini, etc.

    If their hypothesis is indeed true (which I doubt), then the most logical explanation for me personally is that the non-Albanians were Brygian-Paeonian related people. Theres a proven presence of proper Illyrians from Pannonia and Liburnia all the way down to Epirus and further. Theyre pulling Illyrians further North now.

    So these Adriatic tribesmen had common names with Messapians, but so did they with other Illyrians. What about the common words between Messapic and Albanian? We consider them of minor importance now?

    That blue North West Doric area is super exaggerated too. Thats already Paeonian and Illyro-Thracian territory. Like I said, check where the city of Arnisa is located deep in Makedonia.

    Some food for thought, Makedonian baskioi, cognate to Latin fasces, Albanian bashke.

    With what I read so far, I didnt see any evidence excluding the Illyrii proprie dicti centered around North Albania and Montenegro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    was it ancient Epirus as Pyrrhus of Epirus, King of the Epirotes, he who invaded and attacked Rome came from modern Viore Albania
    Pirrhus came to aid Taranto against the Roman expansion. Even though he won couple of battles around Italy against the Romans, his casualties were so high he had no choice but to leave…so it was all for nothing.

    … “another such victory and we shall be utterly ruined” …
    🕷️

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Pirrhus came to aid Taranto against the Roman expansion. Even though he won couple of battles around Italy against the Romans, his casualties were so high he had no choice but to leave…so it was all for nothing.

    … “another such victory and we shall be utterly ruined” …
    While Peucetians were possibly a factor in the genetics of Bari, there is also overlap into the current location of my father's town with ancient Achaean speaking-colonists.

    I wish to see a study that explored the genetic impact of these people in the area.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    While Peucetians were possibly a factor in the genetics of Bari, there is also overlap into the current location of my father's town with ancient Achaean speaking-colonists.

    I wish to see a study that explored the genetic impact of these people in the area.



    We know from the upcoming study on Campania, that the Iron Age Ionic-speakers (Euboea-Speakers) of Pithecusae were similar to Mycenaeans of the LBA.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    While Peucetians were possibly a factor in the genetics of Bari, there is also overlap into the current location of my father's town with ancient Achaean speaking-colonists.

    I wish to see a study that explored the genetic impact of these people in the area.




    your map is at the time of the end of the The Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects

    you see the Doric spartans coming out of Taranto ............losing battles to the messapics

    Apulia was settled by Daunians, Peucetians and Messapics from 1000BC ...................see the recent paper ......................they had a closed society only starting to open up after commemcing their own pottery circa 400BC ..........they where even closed to their Samnite neighbours,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    While Peucetians were possibly a factor in the genetics of Bari, there is also overlap into the current location of my father's town with ancient Achaean speaking-colonists.

    I wish to see a study that explored the genetic impact of these people in the area.



    @Jovialis … There is a small town in Salento called Acaya, an alternative name for Achaea, though the colonist in that area were Spartan-Dorians, … but more Greeks settled in the same area during the Middle Ages.

    They don’t know if the population of that area was already related to the Ancient Greeks, before the arrival of the Medieval ones.

    I’ve been to Acaya many times :)
    Last edited by Salento; 08-10-21 at 06:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    We know from the upcoming study on Campania, that the Iron Age Ionic-speakers (Euboea-Speakers) of Pithecusae were similar to Mycenaeans of the LBA.


    Clearly, after an initial period when the groups remained separate, there was admixture. You can see it in the movement of the samples as well as it being explained in the legend. Doubtless, the same thing happened in Apulia.

    My husband's Neapolitan ancestors would have spoken an Ionic Greek as well, while for the other 3/4 of his ancestry it would have been a mix of Ionic (1/4), and half undoubtedly speaking an Achaean dialect, as his ancestral village is on a hill looking down on the ruins of a major Greek city.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Do they explain in detail how they know it�s Makedonian Greek and not Epirotic Greek or another North Western version?

    In addition, that coloured map further simplifies their claims which can be challenged solely by the existence of both Illyrian and Epirotic Atintani, Dessaretae, Amantini, etc.

    If their hypothesis is indeed true (which I doubt), then the most logical explanation for me personally is that the �non-Albanians� were Brygian-Paeonian related people. There�s a proven presence of proper Illyrians from Pannonia and Liburnia all the way down to Epirus and further. They�re pulling Illyrians further North now.

    So these Adriatic tribesmen had common names with Messapians, but so did they with other Illyrians. What about the common words between Messapic and Albanian? We consider them of minor importance now?

    That blue North West Doric area is super exaggerated too. That�s already Paeonian and Illyro-Thracian territory. Like I said, check where the city of Arnisa is located deep in Makedonia.

    Some food for thought, Makedonian baskioi, cognate to Latin fasces, Albanian bashke.

    With what I read so far, I didn�t see any evidence excluding the Illyrii proprie dicti centered around North Albania and Montenegro.
    Can you tell us what these words mean in each language? Their relationship with the Greek φασκιοι, βασκιοι?

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    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Ancient Greeks were more Western shifted than Southern Italians. When they colonized Southern Italy (whatever impact they made overall) and had contact with natives, wouldn't they create a genetic body that is between Mycenaeans and Italics not something that we see in modern Southern Italians and Aegean Islands.

    Also do you think that Italics were more likely to be absorbed by the Greeks than the Greeks by the Italics?

    The population seem extremely segregated from the non-Greek perspective. I wont surprised if the Greeks remained broadly Mycenaean-like either, but I expect them to be less "conservative" genetically than the Italic people, because they had a more attractive, advanced and dominant culture as colonists. Carthaginians in Sardinia seem extremely influenced by the natives.

    I am reading about Greek colonies in Campania, seems a lot of Latin, Lucanian and Etruscan influence in there. Cumae adopted Latin as an official language before 200BC.
    Last edited by ihype02; 10-10-21 at 16:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Ancient Greeks were more Western shifted than Southern Italians. When they colonized Southern Italy (whatever impact they made overall) and had contact with natives, wouldn't they create a genetic body that is between Mycenaeans and Italics not something that we see in modern Southern Italians and Aegean Islands.

    Also do you think that Italics were more likely to be absorbed by the Greeks than the Greeks by the Italics?

    The population seem extremely segregated from the non-Greek perspective. I wont surprised if the Greeks remained broadly Mycenaean-like either, but I expect them to be less "conservative" genetically than the Italic people, because they had a more attractive, advanced and dominant culture as colonists. Carthaginians in Sardinia seem extremely influenced by the natives.

    I am reading about Greek colonies in Campania, seems a lot of Latin, Lucanian and Etruscan influence in there. Cumae adopt Latin as an official language before 200BC.


    Well answer to your question is Imperial-Rome influx. Else I don't know how south-italians could be eastern-shifted myceaneans if they are suppose to be Latins + Ancient Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    Well answer to your question is Imperial-Rome influx. Else I don't know how south-italians could be eastern-shifted myceaneans if they are suppose to be Latins + Ancient Greeks.
    If an Anatolian_ChL/BA movement came as early as the EBA. Than, it could be attributed to that.

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    ^^Italics and Greeks came later, there were people there before them in the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If an Anatolian_ChL/BA movement came as early as the EBA. Than, it could be attributed to that.
    What is your argumentation for why its from these phantom populations rather than the heavily documented and sampled imperial roman migrants? Where are these Iron-Age southern italians who plot like this then (prenistini outlier plots west of south italians)? This isn't even accounting for the (albeit mild) Germanic/Norman input (shown by haplogroups). One also has the content with the fact that certain E and J subclades in South-Italy are certaintly not from the neolithic/chalcolithic, but appear from Imperial migrations. Occams Razor applies here IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    What is your argumentation for why its from these phantom populations rather than the heavily documented and sampled imperial roman migrants? Where are these Iron-Age southern italians who plot like this then (prenistini outlier plots west of south italians)? This isn't even accounting for the (albeit mild) Germanic/Norman input (shown by haplogroups). One also has the content with the fact that certain E and J subclades in South-Italy are certaintly not from the neolithic/chalcolithic, but appear from Imperial migrations. Occams Razor applies here IMO.
    J2b and J2a were clearly in present pre-Greek era Italy. But a good proportion of J2a in Southern Italian regions is of Greek origin.
    E-V13 is a hard one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    J2b and J2a were clearly in present pre-Greek era Italy. But a good proportion of J2a in Southern Italian regions is of Greek origin.
    E-V13 is a hard one.
    Subclades matter, not letters. You can add up the near-eastern clades in italy and it will exceed the slavic y-dna in Ghegnia, but somehow we are 30% slavic and they are pure Italics Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    Subclades matter, not letters. You can add up the near-eastern clades in italy and it will exceed the slavic y-dna in Ghegnia, but somehow we are 30% slavic and they are pure Italics Lol.


    I never heard anyone claiming that Italians are pure Italics. If anything the Greek influx has been blown out of proportion long before we even had any DNA. It's so funny because they were so sure the Slavic impact was mostly cultural not genetic, but the Greeks left massive traces everywhere. When we compare Greek Anatolians it turns out the opposite.


    Now apparently even Imperial Rome was predominantly East-Med Magna Greacian.


    We will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post


    I never heard anyone claiming that Italians are pure Italics. If anything the Greek influx has been blown out of proportion long before we even had any DNA. It's so funny because they were so sure the Slavic impact was mostly cultural not genetic, but the Greeks left massive traces everywhere. When we compare Greek Anatolians it turns out the opposite.


    Now apparently even Imperial Rome was predominantly East-Med Magna Greacian.


    We will see.

    Italian users here deny any influence from Imperial rome, when if we compare the haplogroups, they have more near-eastern haplogroups than Gheghnia has slavic.

    And the idea of significant slavic replacement *has* been pushed by many members here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    Italian users here deny any influence from Imperial rome, when if we compare the haplogroups, they have more near-eastern haplogroups than Gheghnia has slavic.
    OK, but how are the Ghegs and Slavs even correlated with Italians denying Imperial Rome influence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    Well answer to your question is Imperial-Rome influx. Else I don't know how south-italians could be eastern-shifted myceaneans if they are suppose to be Latins + Ancient Greeks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    You say that but it seems many people on this forum are still jumping around it, looking for random phantom bronze-age pops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    OK, but how are the Ghegs and Slavs even correlated with Italians denying Imperial Rome influence?
    Was just a side-note to strengthen the point about haplogroups pointing towards imperial introgression rather than bronze-age pippo.

    It exists all over Europe btw (though in smaller amounts) no shame : )

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I’m Pugliese, …
    If correct, my Y T line has been in Italy since the Mesolithic era, even mutated twice there, and as of now, there are no clades left, … my Final:




    … the y Tree says Europe Middle Bronze Age:



    http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

    Ardea Latin R850 (800 BCE - 500 BCE) was also close by, … though he’s T1a1… and I’m T1a2…

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