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Thread: V13* or CTS5856*

  1. #1
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    V13* or CTS5856*

    Hi all, I am English and can trace my male line back to my 8th great-grandfather and his marriage in 1673 (no records prior to this date) in Derbyshire, England. My surname is post-Norman conquest patronymic and Germanic in origin and first appears (Old French) in the Domesday Book with the first identically spelled (Middle English) surname recorded in early 14thC . LivingDNA says I'm 97% English (primarily Central England ie Derbyshire) and 3% South Germanic although this is only relevant for the last 10 generations or so.

    As I have no real knowledge about haplogroups and genetics I need a little technical education right now....


    1. LivingDNA have given me my haplogroup as E-V13 and my terminal SNPs as L142.1, L542/PF2220, Page102, PF2211/V13, PF2210/V36 which on the ISOGG tree equates to E1b1b1a1b1
    2. On 'SNP Tracker' this gives my V13 location in the Albania region.
    3. However, I also have CTS5856 (I have no other downstream SNPs below this) which ISOGG puts as E1b1b1a1b1 - does this make it 'earlier' than E1b1b1a1b1a?
    4. CTS5856 appears as a subclade of V13 on the phylo tree and 'SNP Tracker' places CTS5856 further north along the migration path in the Slovenia region so later than V13.


    Is CTS5856 really earlier than V13 - as per E1b1b1a1b1 versus E1b1b1a1b1a - or later as per the tree?And, so, am I V13* (Albanian) or CTS5856* (Slovenian)? Or not!? Either way, would I be right in considering that my ancestors route to England could be from where CTS5856 appears in Slovenia, maybe 'up the Danube' to Austria, west through Germany, over to France/Belgium finally crossing the Channel with or shortly after the Norman invasion around 900 years or so ago?

    Finally, a 'technical' question,

    1. why do I have no further downstream variants from CTS5856? What causes the SNP variations/mutations to stop happening? What was it in the last 4000 years that kept my haplogroup so stable?



    Many thanks for any help you can give, it will be much appreciated.

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  3. #3
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Hi all, I am English and can trace my male line back to my 8th great-grandfather and his marriage in 1673 (no records prior to this date) in Derbyshire, England. My surname is post-Norman conquest patronymic and Germanic in origin and first appears (Old French) in the Domesday Book with the first identically spelled (Middle English) surname recorded in early 14thC . LivingDNA says I'm 97% English (primarily Central England ie Derbyshire) and 3% South Germanic although this is only relevant for the last 10 generations or so.

    As I have no real knowledge about haplogroups and genetics I need a little technical education right now....


    1. LivingDNA have given me my haplogroup as E-V13 and my terminal SNPs as L142.1, L542/PF2220, Page102, PF2211/V13, PF2210/V36 which on the ISOGG tree equates to E1b1b1a1b1
    2. On 'SNP Tracker' this gives my V13 location in the Albania region.
    3. However, I also have CTS5856 (I have no other downstream SNPs below this) which ISOGG puts as E1b1b1a1b1 - does this make it 'earlier' than E1b1b1a1b1a?
    4. CTS5856 appears as a subclade of V13 on the phylo tree and 'SNP Tracker' places CTS5856 further north along the migration path in the Slovenia region so later than V13.


    Is CTS5856 really earlier than V13 - as per E1b1b1a1b1 versus E1b1b1a1b1a - or later as per the tree?And, so, am I V13* (Albanian) or CTS5856* (Slovenian)? Or not!? Either way, would I be right in considering that my ancestors route to England could be from where CTS5856 appears in Slovenia, maybe 'up the Danube' to Austria, west through Germany, over to France/Belgium finally crossing the Channel with or shortly after the Norman invasion around 900 years or so ago?

    Finally, a 'technical' question,

    1. why do I have no further downstream variants from CTS5856? What causes the SNP variations/mutations to stop happening? What was it in the last 4000 years that kept my haplogroup so stable?



    Many thanks for any help you can give, it will be much appreciated.
    You should read this Eupedia page about E-V13:

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...3_distribution

    E-V13 Eupedia.jpg

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    Hi Mongrel, to understand your results, what test(s) did you take?

  5. #5
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    Just the LivingDNA standard test that gives Y-DNA, mtDNA and Autosomal results. No deep-Y or anything like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Just the LivingDNA standard test that gives Y-DNA, mtDNA and Autosomal results. No deep-Y or anything like that.
    You should do one if you can afford it, its worth it and helps not just yourself but others too, to find their paternal roots.

    As for your E-V13, without the subclades, which you only get by doing a BigY at FTDNA or YSeq WGS, you don't know your path. E-V13 entered Europe in the Neolithic, but its big spread happened in the Bronze Age, especially the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age, presumably with the South Eastern Urnfield groups around Gava/Channelled Ware, which represent, in all likelihood, Proto-Daco-Thracians.
    Since they spread far and wide, conquered most of the Balkan and Eastern Central Europe at that time, being among the first to use iron swords, they spread into Hallstatt and from there into Celts. Celts is also the most likely path for a typical British E-V13 carrier. Many British subclades are fairly old and regional, so they can't be very young and from the Balkans, but are just as old, coming from the former homeland of Channelled Ware in Southern Poland-Slovakia-Hungary-North Western Romania-Western Ukraine most likely.
    So far we have evidence of E-V13 being dominant in Psenichevo and Basarabi, two of the main cultural formations of later Daco-Thracians, and individual Thraco-Scythians.

    Whether you are, unlike most British and Irish, from a later Roman Age, Germanic or even modern migrant, you might be able to determine now or in the future by knowing your terminal SNPs, for which you need to test more.

    Currently you just see the entry point of E-V13 into Europe, which at best is just a guess. It means nothing for your paternal lineage. E-V13 subclades appear from Ireland to China and from Sweden to North Africa. Without knowing your subclade, its not possible to go into more detail. Your basic E-V13 is just because you haven't done a better test.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    You should do one if you can afford it, its worth it and helps not just yourself but others too, to find their paternal roots.

    As for your E-V13, without the subclades, which you only get by doing a BigY at FTDNA or YSeq WGS, you don't know your path. E-V13 entered Europe in the Neolithic, but its big spread happened in the Bronze Age, especially the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age, presumably with the South Eastern Urnfield groups around Gava/Channelled Ware, which represent, in all likelihood, Proto-Daco-Thracians.
    Since they spread far and wide, conquered most of the Balkan and Eastern Central Europe at that time, being among the first to use iron swords, they spread into Hallstatt and from there into Celts. Celts is also the most likely path for a typical British E-V13 carrier. Many British subclades are fairly old and regional, so they can't be very young and from the Balkans, but are just as old, coming from the former homeland of Channelled Ware in Southern Poland-Slovakia-Hungary-North Western Romania-Western Ukraine most likely.
    So far we have evidence of E-V13 being dominant in Psenichevo and Basarabi, two of the main cultural formations of later Daco-Thracians, and individual Thraco-Scythians.

    Whether you are, unlike most British and Irish, from a later Roman Age, Germanic or even modern migrant, you might be able to determine now or in the future by knowing your terminal SNPs, for which you need to test more.

    Currently you just see the entry point of E-V13 into Europe, which at best is just a guess. It means nothing for your paternal lineage. E-V13 subclades appear from Ireland to China and from Sweden to North Africa. Without knowing your subclade, its not possible to go into more detail. Your basic E-V13 is just because you haven't done a better test.
    As i said before, there were probably some earlier groups already present in Central Balkans and the southernmost was probably Brnjica Culture who archeologically are known for being one of the first iron smithers as well just as their distant northern cousing Channeled Ware/Gava-Belegis.


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    Thanks for that explanation Riverman!

    If I do go ahead and get an in depth Y-DNA test done, how do I get the results analysed to tell me my 'ancestral route'? Is it done by the testing company or through a standalone app/provider?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Thanks for that explanation Riverman!

    If I do go ahead and get an in depth Y-DNA test done, how do I get the results analysed to tell me my 'ancestral route'? Is it done by the testing company or through a standalone app/provider?
    I can just tell what you get by FTDNA, you get the raw data and you get the matches. If you have no close matches, you are stuck once more anyway, but you will at least know roughly to which branch you belong, like whether you are from a typical British subclade which looks rather like Celtic from the Iron Age or something else.
    You can buy the raw data and upload it to YFull, to get some additional samples and informations, you can use free tools like SNP tracker and others.

    The most important result is whether you have close matches and where you're being positioned on the block tree. From that a lot can be concluded, usually. At least up to the point of both modern and ancient matches existing. If there are none, but this gets rarer the more people and ancients get tested, you just have to be patient and hope for some to come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    As i said before, there were probably some earlier groups already present in Central Balkans and the southernmost was probably Brnjica Culture who archeologically are known for being one of the first iron smithers as well just as their distant northern cousing Channeled Ware/Gava-Belegis.


    Possible, but Brnjica looks like just being overtaken slowly but steadily by incoming Channelled Ware male lineages anyway and the cultural formations positions being questionable. I just recall reading that Channelled Ware burials rose in a couple of generations from a minority to the majority in Brnjica territory and looks rather like they came in, not locals just adopting. So ultimately, there might have been some early splinters, possibly, but the bulk looks like Belegis II-Gava/Channelled Ware and for sure is at the moment only Psenichevo-Basarabi, with influences up to the Geto-Scythians. Everything else we'll see.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    YSeq E-V13 test sent in - awaiting results,

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    YSeq E-V13 test sent in - awaiting results,
    Final results back from YSEQ today.....

    Quick results summary:
    E1b-V13 Panel
    Z5017 G-
    Z5018 T+
    Z16659 C+
    FGC11451 A-
    L241 C-
    FGC11450 G-
    Y3183 G+
    S2972 A+
    A8555 G-
    Z16661 G-
    A7136 G-

    Most specific position on the YFull YTree is E-S2972

    You are negative for all known downstream SNPs

    So, it appears that my terminal SNP is E-S2972.

    Is this a typical British/Celt E subclade? Phylogeographer places my line back in Sardinia in 1500BC, which seems a bit remote from my previously suggested Germanic origins (that was MyTrueAncestry though, who could not provide more than the one example with the same haplogroup).

    Thanks for any insights!

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    Its a very old and more generic clade of E-V13, so there is not much to say without a more downstream match. There are two non-assigned members on FTDNA, one from France, one from England, by the way. So probably you would match with one of them, on FTDNA. Its in any case a clade which made it to Western Europe fairly early.
    Last edited by Riverman; 20-12-21 at 13:58.

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    IMO there is a high probability that you belong to this branch: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...name=E-BY70909

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    A question comes to me here, not specifically about my SNPs, but what is it that both makes mine or someone else's blood NOT mutate further than that found in a common ancestor, like mine, 3500 years ago, where another person may have a whole series of changes and subclades and a common ancestor only 100 years ago?

    Is it related to migration - or not migrating and being in a stable population?
    Is it to do with being part a wider population mix and so wider range of blood available via 'marriage - or to do with not intermixing?
    Is it environmental?
    Is it just chance?

    Just curious as to how my line went from Sardinia 3500 years ago to England 500 years ago (earliest known direct male relative) without change yet the haplo tree shows plenty of changes 'below' me.

    Again, thanks for any insights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    IMO there is a high probability that you belong to this branch: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...name=E-BY70909
    I'm confirmed as A7136 negative so that appears to make me also negative for A7135 which would in turn make me negative for BY70909.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    A question comes to me here, not specifically about my SNPs, but what is it that both makes mine or someone else's blood NOT mutate further than that found in a common ancestor, like mine, 3500 years ago, where another person may have a whole series of changes and subclades and a common ancestor only 100 years ago?
    Is it related to migration - or not migrating and being in a stable population?
    Is it to do with being part a wider population mix and so wider range of blood available via 'marriage - or to do with not intermixing?
    Is it environmental?
    Is it just chance?
    Just curious as to how my line went from Sardinia 3500 years ago to England 500 years ago (earliest known direct male relative) without change yet the haplo tree shows plenty of changes 'below' me.
    Again, thanks for any insights.
    I really doubt your lineage came from Sardinia, if any of your subclade is found in Sardinia then it must have migrated there at the same timeline your lineage migrated further West. Southern Central Europe is the safest bet for any E-V13 subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    A question comes to me here, not specifically about my SNPs, but what is it that both makes mine or someone else's blood NOT mutate further than that found in a common ancestor, like mine, 3500 years ago, where another person may have a whole series of changes and subclades and a common ancestor only 100 years ago?
    Is it related to migration - or not migrating and being in a stable population?
    Is it to do with being part a wider population mix and so wider range of blood available via 'marriage - or to do with not intermixing?
    Is it environmental?
    Is it just chance?
    Just curious as to how my line went from Sardinia 3500 years ago to England 500 years ago (earliest known direct male relative) without change yet the haplo tree shows plenty of changes 'below' me.
    Again, thanks for any insights.
    Your lineage surely didn't went from Sardinia to England 500 years ago, forget about that. If at all, it was going from the Alpine-Rhenish or North Italian area to France and then to Britain, but even then, a much longer time ago. But just in case it was more recent, Sardinia is probably one of the places with the least chances for it, because the local Sardinian samples might be actually Ligurians/Genuese and general Northern Italians which settled primarily in some of the small islands and peninsulas as well as the city of Cagliari, from where all these samples are from. This means I wouldn't exclude Italy, but Sardinia is just a sample bias, because of one big study with a lot of samples from Cagliari, which, by the way, is not representative for the island population as a whole, because of the higher fraction of non-local lineages.

    As for the "blood", its not your blood but your genes and they mutate for the most part by chance. Contributing factors might be environmental, the age of fatherhood and the number of generations. Like I have much older and much younger 3rd cousins, because in their families the generation might have been longer or shorter, depending on the age of the father and the point of their procreation. And this might be different in different areas, like some area in Italy might have, on average, shorter intervals and some area in Northern Germany higher or vice versa. It might be specific to a family of specific social background, like academics which father later and so on.

    But for the most part its pure chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I'm confirmed as A7136 negative so that appears to make me also negative for A7135 which would in turn make me negative for BY70909.
    All the people which are BY70909+ are negative for A7136 but positive for A7135.
    This means being A7136 negative does not make you negative for A7135.

  19. #19
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    Thanks for your response Riverman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Your lineage surely didn't went from Sardinia to England 500 years ago, forget about that.
    What I was saying was that my lineage went from Sardinia to England somewhere in the 3000 years between the two dates not actually 500 years ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If at all, it was going from the Alpine-Rhenish or North Italian area to France and then to Britain, but even then, a much longer time ago.
    This aligns with what I had understood before seeing the final outcome from YSEQ. Indeed, MTA has me as Celt/Frank. It was the fact that where I was, apparently, S2972* I had, according to YFULL and phylogeographer.com, a MCRA in Sardinia yet scaledinnovation.com puts me up close to the Alps. And is this Sardinian not actually part of my line?

    This raises the "why the difference" and "which is correct" questions. Just like why does YFULL not have BY70909 as mentioned by Shetop above, but FTDNA has?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    As for the "blood", its not your blood but your genes and they mutate for the most part by chance. Contributing factors might be environmental, the age of fatherhood and the number of generations. Like I have much older and much younger 3rd cousins, because in their families the generation might have been longer or shorter, depending on the age of the father and the point of their procreation. And this might be different in different areas, like some area in Italy might have, on average, shorter intervals and some area in Northern Germany higher or vice versa. It might be specific to a family of specific social background, like academics which father later and so on.

    But for the most part its pure chance.
    Fair enough, so basically, a case of "all of the above", still, very interesting mind but way beyond my 'horizons'!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    All the people which are BY70909+ are negative for A7136 but positive for A7135.
    This means being A7136 negative does not make you negative for A7135.
    Now this is interesting. As you will see, YSEQ says I'm negative for all SNPs downstream of S2972, so, by default, including A7135 which has the negative A7136 aligned with it. Although, I have not been specifically tested against A7135


    Most specific position on the YFullYTree is E-S2972

    E-S2972 S2972+ Z16660($)
    ┣━E-A7135 +2 A7135($) A7136- BY153285(?) BY5267(?) Y18358/BY5316(?) Y18674(?) Y18675($) Y18676(?) Y250118/A28755($)
    ┗━E-Z16661 +2 BY3835(?) PH3589(?) Z16661-

    Negative for all known downstream SNPs


    I think a question to YSEQ is needed.....(and asked...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    This raises the "why the difference" and "which is correct" questions. Just like why does YFULL not have BY70909 as mentioned by Shetop above, but FTDNA has?
    YFull and FTDNA create their trees largely independent from each other and if YFull has so far no members of the respective branches in its tree, they don't create them. FTDNA has generally more testers and more branches, though there are here and there exceptions with YFull having more. You will also note that they name the branches differently, just like they detect them. So the same branch on FTDNA might be named after a different significant SNP than on YFull, even if its, actually, the same branch both describing. Just think of it as two researchers and each one getting their own material and sorting it their own way, based on just some rough preliminary outline which was established by others before. They are both pioneering without watching each other carefully, which can be quite confusing at times.
    My branches and subbranches have different names on both sites as well.

  22. #22
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    YSEQ have just said that they will very kindly also test me for A7135 and BY70909.

    Watch this space...

  23. #23
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    First result is in....

    BY70909 ChrY 8358887 8358887 C+

    So I am positive for BY70909 (A7135 not in yet) and many thanks to @Shetop for identifying the probability!

    Interestingly, the comment put in YSEQ alongside the test status is...
    "Processing BY70909 and A7135 are further branches that are not on the YFull tree" - so YSEQ are very much driven by YFULL, so, BY70909 not being on the YFULL E haplo tree, currently, meant I would never have been tested without my asking and @Shetop's comment.

    Something worth remembering if taking a YSEQ analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    First result is in....

    BY70909 ChrY 8358887 8358887 C+
    Congratulations!

  25. #25
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm now being tested against FT98195 - which doesn't seem to appear on either YFULL or FTDNA.

    edit:

    ....looks like it may be BY70909 > FT195615 > FT147548 > FT196686 > FT98195

    FTDNA has a subject identified as 'boardman' included in the 'Woods Y-DNA Project' with these SNPs (FamilyTreeDNA - Wood / Woods Y-DNA Project).

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