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Thread: V13* or CTS5856*

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.

    V13* or CTS5856*

    Hi all, I am English and can trace my male line back to my 8th great-grandfather and his marriage in 1673 (no records prior to this date) in Derbyshire, England. My surname is post-Norman conquest patronymic and Germanic in origin and first appears (Old French) in the Domesday Book with the first identically spelled (Middle English) surname recorded in early 14thC . LivingDNA says I'm 97% English (primarily Central England ie Derbyshire) and 3% South Germanic although this is only relevant for the last 10 generations or so.

    As I have no real knowledge about haplogroups and genetics I need a little technical education right now....


    1. LivingDNA have given me my haplogroup as E-V13 and my terminal SNPs as L142.1, L542/PF2220, Page102, PF2211/V13, PF2210/V36 which on the ISOGG tree equates to E1b1b1a1b1
    2. On 'SNP Tracker' this gives my V13 location in the Albania region.
    3. However, I also have CTS5856 (I have no other downstream SNPs below this) which ISOGG puts as E1b1b1a1b1 - does this make it 'earlier' than E1b1b1a1b1a?
    4. CTS5856 appears as a subclade of V13 on the phylo tree and 'SNP Tracker' places CTS5856 further north along the migration path in the Slovenia region so later than V13.


    Is CTS5856 really earlier than V13 - as per E1b1b1a1b1 versus E1b1b1a1b1a - or later as per the tree?And, so, am I V13* (Albanian) or CTS5856* (Slovenian)? Or not!? Either way, would I be right in considering that my ancestors route to England could be from where CTS5856 appears in Slovenia, maybe 'up the Danube' to Austria, west through Germany, over to France/Belgium finally crossing the Channel with or shortly after the Norman invasion around 900 years or so ago?

    Finally, a 'technical' question,

    1. why do I have no further downstream variants from CTS5856? What causes the SNP variations/mutations to stop happening? What was it in the last 4000 years that kept my haplogroup so stable?



    Many thanks for any help you can give, it will be much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-11-19
    Posts
    55

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y138701*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2f1b1

    Ethnic group
    North African/North East Slavic
    Country: Canada


  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-11-19
    Posts
    55

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y138701*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2f1b1

    Ethnic group
    North African/North East Slavic
    Country: Canada



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Hi all, I am English and can trace my male line back to my 8th great-grandfather and his marriage in 1673 (no records prior to this date) in Derbyshire, England. My surname is post-Norman conquest patronymic and Germanic in origin and first appears (Old French) in the Domesday Book with the first identically spelled (Middle English) surname recorded in early 14thC . LivingDNA says I'm 97% English (primarily Central England ie Derbyshire) and 3% South Germanic although this is only relevant for the last 10 generations or so.

    As I have no real knowledge about haplogroups and genetics I need a little technical education right now....


    1. LivingDNA have given me my haplogroup as E-V13 and my terminal SNPs as L142.1, L542/PF2220, Page102, PF2211/V13, PF2210/V36 which on the ISOGG tree equates to E1b1b1a1b1
    2. On 'SNP Tracker' this gives my V13 location in the Albania region.
    3. However, I also have CTS5856 (I have no other downstream SNPs below this) which ISOGG puts as E1b1b1a1b1 - does this make it 'earlier' than E1b1b1a1b1a?
    4. CTS5856 appears as a subclade of V13 on the phylo tree and 'SNP Tracker' places CTS5856 further north along the migration path in the Slovenia region so later than V13.


    Is CTS5856 really earlier than V13 - as per E1b1b1a1b1 versus E1b1b1a1b1a - or later as per the tree?And, so, am I V13* (Albanian) or CTS5856* (Slovenian)? Or not!? Either way, would I be right in considering that my ancestors route to England could be from where CTS5856 appears in Slovenia, maybe 'up the Danube' to Austria, west through Germany, over to France/Belgium finally crossing the Channel with or shortly after the Norman invasion around 900 years or so ago?

    Finally, a 'technical' question,

    1. why do I have no further downstream variants from CTS5856? What causes the SNP variations/mutations to stop happening? What was it in the last 4000 years that kept my haplogroup so stable?



    Many thanks for any help you can give, it will be much appreciated.
    You should read this Eupedia page about E-V13:

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...3_distribution

    E-V13 Eupedia.jpg

  4. #4
    Regular Member
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    27-09-16
    Posts
    47


    Country: Belgium



    Hi Mongrel, to understand your results, what test(s) did you take?

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    Just the LivingDNA standard test that gives Y-DNA, mtDNA and Autosomal results. No deep-Y or anything like that.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    722


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Just the LivingDNA standard test that gives Y-DNA, mtDNA and Autosomal results. No deep-Y or anything like that.
    You should do one if you can afford it, its worth it and helps not just yourself but others too, to find their paternal roots.

    As for your E-V13, without the subclades, which you only get by doing a BigY at FTDNA or YSeq WGS, you don't know your path. E-V13 entered Europe in the Neolithic, but its big spread happened in the Bronze Age, especially the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age, presumably with the South Eastern Urnfield groups around Gava/Channelled Ware, which represent, in all likelihood, Proto-Daco-Thracians.
    Since they spread far and wide, conquered most of the Balkan and Eastern Central Europe at that time, being among the first to use iron swords, they spread into Hallstatt and from there into Celts. Celts is also the most likely path for a typical British E-V13 carrier. Many British subclades are fairly old and regional, so they can't be very young and from the Balkans, but are just as old, coming from the former homeland of Channelled Ware in Southern Poland-Slovakia-Hungary-North Western Romania-Western Ukraine most likely.
    So far we have evidence of E-V13 being dominant in Psenichevo and Basarabi, two of the main cultural formations of later Daco-Thracians, and individual Thraco-Scythians.

    Whether you are, unlike most British and Irish, from a later Roman Age, Germanic or even modern migrant, you might be able to determine now or in the future by knowing your terminal SNPs, for which you need to test more.

    Currently you just see the entry point of E-V13 into Europe, which at best is just a guess. It means nothing for your paternal lineage. E-V13 subclades appear from Ireland to China and from Sweden to North Africa. Without knowing your subclade, its not possible to go into more detail. Your basic E-V13 is just because you haven't done a better test.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    735

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    You should do one if you can afford it, its worth it and helps not just yourself but others too, to find their paternal roots.

    As for your E-V13, without the subclades, which you only get by doing a BigY at FTDNA or YSeq WGS, you don't know your path. E-V13 entered Europe in the Neolithic, but its big spread happened in the Bronze Age, especially the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age, presumably with the South Eastern Urnfield groups around Gava/Channelled Ware, which represent, in all likelihood, Proto-Daco-Thracians.
    Since they spread far and wide, conquered most of the Balkan and Eastern Central Europe at that time, being among the first to use iron swords, they spread into Hallstatt and from there into Celts. Celts is also the most likely path for a typical British E-V13 carrier. Many British subclades are fairly old and regional, so they can't be very young and from the Balkans, but are just as old, coming from the former homeland of Channelled Ware in Southern Poland-Slovakia-Hungary-North Western Romania-Western Ukraine most likely.
    So far we have evidence of E-V13 being dominant in Psenichevo and Basarabi, two of the main cultural formations of later Daco-Thracians, and individual Thraco-Scythians.

    Whether you are, unlike most British and Irish, from a later Roman Age, Germanic or even modern migrant, you might be able to determine now or in the future by knowing your terminal SNPs, for which you need to test more.

    Currently you just see the entry point of E-V13 into Europe, which at best is just a guess. It means nothing for your paternal lineage. E-V13 subclades appear from Ireland to China and from Sweden to North Africa. Without knowing your subclade, its not possible to go into more detail. Your basic E-V13 is just because you haven't done a better test.
    As i said before, there were probably some earlier groups already present in Central Balkans and the southernmost was probably Brnjica Culture who archeologically are known for being one of the first iron smithers as well just as their distant northern cousing Channeled Ware/Gava-Belegis.


  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    Thanks for that explanation Riverman!

    If I do go ahead and get an in depth Y-DNA test done, how do I get the results analysed to tell me my 'ancestral route'? Is it done by the testing company or through a standalone app/provider?

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
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    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Thanks for that explanation Riverman!

    If I do go ahead and get an in depth Y-DNA test done, how do I get the results analysed to tell me my 'ancestral route'? Is it done by the testing company or through a standalone app/provider?
    I can just tell what you get by FTDNA, you get the raw data and you get the matches. If you have no close matches, you are stuck once more anyway, but you will at least know roughly to which branch you belong, like whether you are from a typical British subclade which looks rather like Celtic from the Iron Age or something else.
    You can buy the raw data and upload it to YFull, to get some additional samples and informations, you can use free tools like SNP tracker and others.

    The most important result is whether you have close matches and where you're being positioned on the block tree. From that a lot can be concluded, usually. At least up to the point of both modern and ancient matches existing. If there are none, but this gets rarer the more people and ancients get tested, you just have to be patient and hope for some to come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    As i said before, there were probably some earlier groups already present in Central Balkans and the southernmost was probably Brnjica Culture who archeologically are known for being one of the first iron smithers as well just as their distant northern cousing Channeled Ware/Gava-Belegis.


    Possible, but Brnjica looks like just being overtaken slowly but steadily by incoming Channelled Ware male lineages anyway and the cultural formations positions being questionable. I just recall reading that Channelled Ware burials rose in a couple of generations from a minority to the majority in Brnjica territory and looks rather like they came in, not locals just adopting. So ultimately, there might have been some early splinters, possibly, but the bulk looks like Belegis II-Gava/Channelled Ware and for sure is at the moment only Psenichevo-Basarabi, with influences up to the Geto-Scythians. Everything else we'll see.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-17
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13
    MtDNA haplogroup
    V10

    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    YSeq E-V13 test sent in - awaiting results,

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