Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

[Blablabla]

I'm with Archetype0ne here, in terms of coincidence you find today, which is an artifact of subsequent impurities. This is similar to how some populations that have nothing to do with European farmers on the same principle float closer to them today. This is due to very late arobo-Semitic impurities that clearly mimic Anatolian origins and have nothing to do with the EEF.* The same is true for the Minoans and Mycenaeans, of course.
*“However, a MDS analysis performed on the
whole genome including sites potentially affected by selection (Fig. S19) rather suggests that
early farmers are closer to Southern Europeans other than Sardinians.”
however, we have a historical analysis and therefore the DNA studies must take a combinatorial approach, so as not to sound absurd against the background of already well-established facts.

[ihype02]

Just saw those on Anthrogenica:

"And yet the latter, if brought under, might be kept under; while the Sicilians, even if conquered, are too far off and too numerous to be ruled without difficulty."

"The same winter the Athenians resolved to sail again to Sicily, with a greater armament than that under Laches and Eurymedon, and, if possible, to conquer the island; most of them being ignorant of its size and of the number of its inhabitants, hellenic and barbarian, and of the fact that they were undertaking a war not much inferior to that against the Peloponnesians."

- History of the Peloponesian war, Thuclydides, 4th century BC.

"If it were enacted Marius and Sulpicius would have everything they wanted, because the new citizens [then socii] far outnumbered the old ones. The old citizens saw this and opposed the new ones with all their might. They fought each other with sticks and stones, and the evil increased continually, till the consuls, becoming apprehensive, as the day for voting on the law drew near, proclaimed a vacation​ of several days, such as was customary on festal occasions, in order to postpone the voting and the danger."

- Appian, The Civil wars, The Histories

Nearly complete replacement of Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Sicilians, eh?
Was Thucydides seeing ghosts?

[Jovialis]

I'm with Archetype0ne here, in terms of coincidence you find today, which is an artifact of subsequent impurities. This is similar to how some populations that have nothing to do with European farmers on the same principle float closer to them today. This is due to very late arobo-Semitic impurities that clearly mimic Anatolian origins and have nothing to do with the EEF.* The same is true for the Minoans and Mycenaeans, of course.
*“However, a MDS analysis performed on the
whole genome including sites potentially affected by selection (Fig. S19) rather suggests that
early farmers are closer to Southern Europeans other than Sardinians.”
however, we have a historical analysis and therefore the DNA studies must take a combinatorial approach, so as not to sound absurd against the background of already well-established facts.

Impurities, wtf are you saying?

Your ancestors are closer to Southern Italians than they are to you, which is why you disapprove. Deal with it.

[torzio]

I did not want to take part in the "nativist vs immigrationist" debate, since I think that new papers will make the picture clearer, and I have already presented my issues with the last paper on the Etruscans.
Even if they decided to take the route of that paper, postulating an obviously ridicolous massive migration from the Levant to Italy and then from north Europe to Italy, this time such a scenario would be much harder to conciliate with the data: the Sicilians in the IA were identical to those in the BA, and it is very unlikely that Sicily's gene pool was just confined to Sicily, and the Daunian paper shows that not every inhabitant of Italy was Italic-like, pace to those that had "high hopes" of seeing their petty theories straight from the 20th century about Italy confirmed.
The leaked PCA from the upcoming study of Campania has some points/samples that do not fall in three groups, and I wonder what they are: let's remember that Italic weren't the first people in Italy.
Main take away: before postulating that half of the inhabitants of Italy at some point came from the Levant or the middle east at some point, it is a priori much likelier that there was internal gene flow in Italy, and then from neighbouring regions like the Balkans, and then regions further away; IA samples from the rest of south Italy would shed more light on the issue.

P.S. As for the topic of the thread, I am willing to bet that there was no cline in Italy from Latin_IA to Aegean_IA because it makes literally no sense, but there are some chances there was a cline from Latin_IA to Sicilian_IA/BA, so not much different from a hypothetical Latin_IA-Aegean_IA cline. I think it would answere the question in this thread.

The question is WHEN did these Levant and Middle-East communities enter Italy

We only have Romans occupying modern Albania from the Macedonias just before the hannibal wars and never letting it go.

Then we have Roman outposts in western Asia-Minor from circa 88BC ( from the Greek Seleucid empire ) ..........................the bulk of levant and middle-eastern movements to Italy happened under Imperial Rome and Not under republican Rome times

[Jovialis]

^^AND it was reduced and disappeared in the following era...

[Leopoldo Leone]

The question is WHEN did these Levant and Middle-East communities enter Italy
We only have Romans occupying modern Albania from the Macedonias just before the hannibal wars and never letting it go.
Then we have Roman outposts in western Asia-Minor from circa 88BC ( from the Greek Seleucid empire ) ..........................the bulk of levant and middle-eastern movements to Italy happened under Imperial Rome and Not under republican Rome times

This is why I wanted to keep myself out of this pointless discussion: no one denies Levantines and middle easteners entered in Italy (we have samples from the Antonio et al paper, those in the C4 cluster), but it is starting to look as if the "east med" gene flow was actually from south Italy or the Balkans; the point isn't to deny a priori any eventual contribution from the Levant or the middle east in the Italian gene pool, but the scenario in which Italians are Italics+Levantines+Germanics honestly sounds too far fetched, and it is grounded on false premises (as that all Italy was Italic-like).

[Jovialis]

This is why I wanted to keep myself out of this pointless discussion: no one denies Levantines and middle easteners entered in Italy (we have samples from the Antonio et al paper, those in the C4 cluster), but it is starting to look as if the "east med" gene flow was actually from south Italy or the Balkans; the point isn't to deny a priori any eventual contribution from the Levant or the middle east in the Italian gene pool, but the scenario in which Italians are Italics+Levantines+Germanics honestly sounds too far fetched, and it is grounded on false premises (as that all Italy was Italic-like).

Exactly, Italy was basically genetically mirroring the Balkans during the IA. You had a Northern group and a southern group in both peninsulas, and people that fall on that gradient. Big changes happened in the middle ages in the Balkans.

[Jovialis]

I did not want to take part in the "nativist vs immigrationist" debate, since I think that new papers will make the picture clearer, and I have already presented my issues with the last paper on the Etruscans.
Even if they decided to take the route of that paper, postulating an obviously ridicolous massive migration from the Levant to Italy and then from north Europe to Italy, this time such a scenario would be much harder to conciliate with the data: the Sicilians in the IA were identical to those in the BA, and it is very unlikely that Sicily's gene pool was just confined to Sicily, and the Daunian paper shows that not every inhabitant of Italy was Italic-like, pace to those that had "high hopes" of seeing their petty theories straight from the 20th century about Italy confirmed.
The leaked PCA from the upcoming study of Campania has some points/samples that do not fall in three groups, and I wonder what they are: let's remember that Italic weren't the first people in Italy.
Main take away: before postulating that half of the inhabitants of Italy at some point came from the Levant or the middle east at some point, it is a priori much likelier that there was internal gene flow in Italy, and then from neighbouring regions like the Balkans, and then regions further away; IA samples from the rest of south Italy would shed more light on the issue.

P.S. As for the topic of the thread, I am willing to bet that there was no cline in Italy from Latin_IA to Aegean_IA because it makes literally no sense, but there are some chances there was a cline from Latin_IA to Sicilian_IA/BA, so not much different from a hypothetical Latin_IA-Aegean_IA cline. I think it would answere the question in this thread.

When did I say there was a Latin_IA to Aegean_IA cline?!

I said it was R1 to Aegean_IA cline, which is consistent with using the Balkan_IA model as a proxy.

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
3.50880321	C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
3.55522151	Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
3.74988000	Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
4.09436198	Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
4.73285326	Szolad43:Amorim_2018
4.75513407	C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
5.13872552	Collegno23:Amorim_2018
5.14213963	Szolad28:Amorim_2018
5.21295502	Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
5.43897049	Collegno36:Amorim_2018
5.48600036	I3593:Olalde_2018
5.55054051	Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
5.55906467	Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
5.56696506	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
5.80672024	Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
6.35463610	Szolad31:Amorim_2018
6.35757029	La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
6.40659036	Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
6.54488350	MOK13:Zegarac_2021
6.64578062	MOK31:Zegarac_2021
6.84447222	CSN009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.86396387	ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.98428951	Collegno49:Amorim_2018
6.99671351	I7040:Olalde_2018
7.35485554	Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019

If the model of Solvenian_IA + Aegean_IA can create a cline of people that plot over Tuscans to south Italian, I think a R1 (Croatian_BA-like, which is similar and aligned to Slovenian_IA) + Aegean_IA can produce a similar population in Italy. Which is perhaps why we already have Iron Age samples that fall upon this cline, in Italy.

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote in the first post of the thread, instead of claiming what I said makes no sense.

[Blablabla]

Impurities, wtf are you saying?
Your ancestors are closer to Southern Italians than they are to you, which is why you disapprove. Deal with it.

They are not closer to southern Italians and I have already mentioned why. It divides you time and space, you have not been formed as an ethnic group yet.
quote: "most European farmers
are genetically closer to Central and Northwestern (NW) Anatolian farmers than to Pre-Pottery
Neolithic (PPN) farmers of the Southern Levant or the Zagros region of Western Iran, who
were genetically well differentiated. "
You have more in common with other Western Europeans plus a lot of Semitic blood, so you are quite far from us both in time and place of formation.
You have a mixture that accidentally puts you closer to a Balkan population that has obviously undergone a genetic change over time and there is no way
today the same people to coincide with you or the ancestors of that time. In other words, the Balkans are at a crossroads, the locals have also undergone changes like the whole of Europe, but the locals have obviously not disappeared. Their influence has spread far and wide in all directions.
You speak a language from the IE group today only thanks to the cultural influence of my ancestors.
You want to have something in common, and I know I have, that's the difference between us. I am a direct descendant of the locals culturally, historically, linguistics, genetically , regardless of the assimilated new ones, because here we have continuity at every point, including parallels with the oldest Balkan writing which show parallels with the later linear A and B and with Glagolitic and Old Bulgarian runes. Mycenaean inscriptions have interesting names mentioned and they are neither Italian nor Greek.

[Jovialis]

They are not closer to southern Italians and I have already mentioned why. It divides you time and space, you have not been formed as an ethnic group yet.
quote: "most European farmers
are genetically closer to Central and Northwestern (NW) Anatolian farmers than to Pre-Pottery
Neolithic (PPN) farmers of the Southern Levant or the Zagros region of Western Iran, who
were genetically well differentiated. "
You have more in common with other Western Europeans plus a lot of Semitic blood, so you are quite far from us both in time and place of formation.
You have a mixture that accidentally puts you closer to a Balkan population that has obviously undergone a genetic change over time and there is no way
today the same people to coincide with you or the ancestors of that time. In other words, the Balkans are at a crossroads, the locals have also undergone changes like the whole of Europe, but the locals have obviously not disappeared. Their influence has spread far and wide in all directions.
You speak a language from the IE group today only thanks to the cultural influence of my ancestors.
You want to have something in common, and I know I have, that's the difference between us. I am a direct descendant of the local cultural, historical, linguistic, genetic, regardless of the assimilated new ones, because here we have continuity at every point, including parallels with the oldest Balkan signs which show parallels with the later linear a and b and with Glagolitic and Old Bulgarian runes.

Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.

[Jovialis]

You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839	Italian_Marche
10.06689624	French_Corsica
10.48634827	Italian_Campania
10.82355302	Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114	Italian_Lazio
11.62009036	Italian_Romagna
12.30486489	Italian_Sicily
12.77579352	Italian_Calabria
13.08537351	Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901	Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489	Italian_Apulia
13.72006195	Greek_Athens
14.07487478	Greek_Central
14.51890836	Greek_Foca
14.57305047	Italian_Emilia
14.58877651	Albanian
14.69527815	Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987	Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214	Italian_Liguria
15.27454091	Greek_Icaria
15.35805977	Italian_Jews
15.46250950	Greek_Izmir
15.83988005	Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991	Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930	Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716	Greek_Thrace
16.62914911	Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658	Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480	Greek_Crete
17.23798712	Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728	Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926	Morocco_Jews
17.90415315	Greek_Kos
18.09109726	Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760	Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323	Italian_Veneto
19.23244134	Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882	Macedonian_South
19.97022784	Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896	Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751	Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030	Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354	Swiss_Italian
21.22313832	Macedonian_East
21.84876427	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401	Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493	Italian_Trentino
22.76021529	Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928	Sardinian
23.22266996	Bulgarian_East
23.27446025	Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471	Turk_Trakya
24.14725450	Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833	Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510	Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287	Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604	Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741	Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795	Portuguese
25.50004510	Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030	Bulgarian_West
25.89377338	Pomak_Greece
25.94147259	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921	Moldovan_South
26.07655844	Romanian
26.40204538	Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121	Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605	Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976	Turk_Northwest
27.46114710	Montenegrin
27.51541386	Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162	Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823	Turk_Southwest
28.24661927	Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902	Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658	Turk_Central_West
28.79363992	Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861	Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582	Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862	Turk_Central_East
30.88389710	Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935	Turk_South
31.02476430	Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017	Serb
31.23947503	Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146	Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856	Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653	Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011	Palestinian
32.51912975	Turk_Southeast
32.57728657	Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009	Moldovan_Central
33.36607259	Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131	Bavarian_German
34.10900174	Turk_East
34.15463219	French_Northeast
34.19288669	Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186	Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082	French_Southwest

[Blablabla]

Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.

That was not Slavs but assimilated by us Balts, Ugro Finns and Turks from Northern Europe. The name of our states formations is clear why is that. They came with Asparuh where free Moesians mixed with more northern people before to strike back and return to the old lands to the south of Danube. We know well there is Moesia/ Mizia at Asia Minor too, so everything fits well with my knowledge. You can be assimilated Balkan if you like, I am a Balkan Balkan, the real heir of the local traditions, culture, language and their memory.

[Jovialis]

You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839	Italian_Marche
10.06689624	French_Corsica
10.48634827	Italian_Campania
10.82355302	Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114	Italian_Lazio
11.62009036	Italian_Romagna
12.30486489	Italian_Sicily
12.77579352	Italian_Calabria
13.08537351	Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901	Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489	Italian_Apulia
13.72006195	Greek_Athens
14.07487478	Greek_Central
14.51890836	Greek_Foca
14.57305047	Italian_Emilia
14.58877651	Albanian
14.69527815	Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987	Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214	Italian_Liguria
15.27454091	Greek_Icaria
15.35805977	Italian_Jews
15.46250950	Greek_Izmir
15.83988005	Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991	Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930	Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716	Greek_Thrace
16.62914911	Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658	Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480	Greek_Crete
17.23798712	Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728	Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926	Morocco_Jews
17.90415315	Greek_Kos
18.09109726	Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760	Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323	Italian_Veneto
19.23244134	Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882	Macedonian_South
19.97022784	Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896	Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751	Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030	Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354	Swiss_Italian
21.22313832	Macedonian_East
21.84876427	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401	Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493	Italian_Trentino
22.76021529	Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928	Sardinian
23.22266996	Bulgarian_East
23.27446025	Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471	Turk_Trakya
24.14725450	Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833	Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510	Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287	Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604	Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741	Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795	Portuguese
25.50004510	Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030	Bulgarian_West
25.89377338	Pomak_Greece
25.94147259	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921	Moldovan_South
26.07655844	Romanian
26.40204538	Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121	Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605	Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976	Turk_Northwest
27.46114710	Montenegrin
27.51541386	Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162	Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823	Turk_Southwest
28.24661927	Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902	Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658	Turk_Central_West
28.79363992	Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861	Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582	Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862	Turk_Central_East
30.88389710	Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935	Turk_South
31.02476430	Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017	Serb
31.23947503	Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146	Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856	Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653	Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011	Palestinian
32.51912975	Turk_Southeast
32.57728657	Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009	Moldovan_Central
33.36607259	Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131	Bavarian_German
34.10900174	Turk_East
34.15463219	French_Northeast
34.19288669	Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186	Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082	French_Southwest

Distance to:	Jovialis
11.53736972	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

[Blablabla]

You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839	Italian_Marche
10.06689624	French_Corsica
10.48634827	Italian_Campania
10.82355302	Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114	Italian_Lazio
11.62009036	Italian_Romagna
12.30486489	Italian_Sicily
12.77579352	Italian_Calabria
13.08537351	Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901	Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489	Italian_Apulia
13.72006195	Greek_Athens
14.07487478	Greek_Central
14.51890836	Greek_Foca
14.57305047	Italian_Emilia
14.58877651	Albanian
14.69527815	Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987	Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214	Italian_Liguria
15.27454091	Greek_Icaria
15.35805977	Italian_Jews
15.46250950	Greek_Izmir
15.83988005	Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991	Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930	Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716	Greek_Thrace
16.62914911	Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658	Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480	Greek_Crete
17.23798712	Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728	Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926	Morocco_Jews
17.90415315	Greek_Kos
18.09109726	Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760	Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323	Italian_Veneto
19.23244134	Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882	Macedonian_South
19.97022784	Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896	Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751	Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030	Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354	Swiss_Italian
21.22313832	Macedonian_East
21.84876427	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401	Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493	Italian_Trentino
22.76021529	Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928	Sardinian
23.22266996	Bulgarian_East
23.27446025	Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471	Turk_Trakya
24.14725450	Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833	Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510	Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287	Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604	Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741	Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795	Portuguese
25.50004510	Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030	Bulgarian_West
25.89377338	Pomak_Greece
25.94147259	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921	Moldovan_South
26.07655844	Romanian
26.40204538	Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121	Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605	Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976	Turk_Northwest
27.46114710	Montenegrin
27.51541386	Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162	Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823	Turk_Southwest
28.24661927	Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902	Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658	Turk_Central_West
28.79363992	Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861	Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582	Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862	Turk_Central_East
30.88389710	Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935	Turk_South
31.02476430	Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017	Serb
31.23947503	Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146	Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856	Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653	Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011	Palestinian
32.51912975	Turk_Southeast
32.57728657	Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009	Moldovan_Central
33.36607259	Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131	Bavarian_German
34.10900174	Turk_East
34.15463219	French_Northeast
34.19288669	Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186	Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082	French_Southwest

We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

[Blablabla]

Distance to:	Jovialis
11.53736972	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...266#post632266
and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.

Distance to:	PIV
4.77881785	Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR310:Veeramah_2018
6.45128669	Scythian:scy305:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
8.01291458	MAS001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
9.12929899	I3596:Olalde_2018
9.38264888	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
9.42110397	ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
9.49773131	Szolad37:Amorim_2018
9.50791249	Altenerding-Klettham_480-519AD_Female:AED513:Veeramah_2018
9.96866089	Szolad1:Amorim_2018
10.35228477	Bulgaria_EBA:I2165:Mathieson_2018
10.55006161	Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
10.80719205	Scythian:scy301:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
11.10251773	NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
11.83661692	I3592:Olalde_2018
11.88024411	Szolad20:Amorim_2018

[Jovialis]

We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

I get these percentages for a reason, it is not a fantasy. I am not the one that claims I am genetically similar to your ancestors, it is simply a biological reality, and I am acknowledging that.

R1+ Aegean_IA



Results in the same as this:

[ihype02]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...266#post632266
and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.

BUL_IA is not an outlier (I have told others that before the Danubian paper), in fact several Serbian late antiquity samples plot south of it.
Southern Thracians were probably more southern shifted given the circumstances.

As for EBA samples they are more northern shifted because they are related with spread of the Steppe ancestry during the Early Bronze Age therefore they are unadmixed, later they become into what are the Thracians. The Iron Age and Late Antiquity samples represent what Thracians of Bulgaria actually were like.

[torzio]

And I get sample R1 as my top match
via balkans

[Salento]

Distance to:	Jovialis
11.53736972	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

Distance to:	S
11.65080684	Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

[Jovialis]

When did I say there was a Latin_IA to Aegean_IA cline?!

I said it was R1 to Aegean_IA cline, which is consistent with using the Balkan_IA model as a proxy.

Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.

[torzio]

Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.

so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???

[Jovialis]

We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

I have my own culture and heritage, so I don't need to claim yours. Let me scale this back a bit, of course you're linked to the native Iron Age Balkanites more directly, as well as the rest of the modern native Balkanites, they are a part of your history. However, it seems to me that the Iron Age Balkans, and Iron Age Italy, particularly the Adriatic side had genetic similarities. Further, it seems that Italy retained more of that specific genetic profile. Of course Italians have been augmented too, since the Iron Age. But I think it is clear, that there was a North Eastern European enrichment in the Balkan peninsula during the Middle Ages. The arrival of these people who mixed with the people prior was the ethnogenesis of the modern Balkans. Frankly, I don't see why some people are furious at this.

[Jovialis]

so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???

Yeah, there's nothing in the supplement that says so. They still have the VEN samples from the Etruscan paper as "Samites", when we all know for a fact that they are from the Middle Ages.

[Jovialis]

All of the Albanians who think I am trying to deny them of their ancestors should take a look at the chart I posted, modern Albanians are not that far off from the Balkans_IA. Even if it is 20-30% North Eastern European ancestry in the mix, I don't think that detracts from the idea that they are very much still related to these Iron Age people. Relatively speaking, that is not that much dilution. Lazaridis stated that there was continuity with the ancient Greeks, and modern Greeks, despite just about the same dilution. Nevertheless, some of the most vocal opponents of the Olalde et al. 2021 model comes from them. I would like to know why.