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Thread: Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

  1. #51
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    I'm with Archetype0ne here, in terms of coincidence you find today, which is an artifact of subsequent impurities. This is similar to how some populations that have nothing to do with European farmers on the same principle float closer to them today. This is due to very late arobo-Semitic impurities that clearly mimic Anatolian origins and have nothing to do with the EEF.* The same is true for the Minoans and Mycenaeans, of course.
    *“However, a MDS analysis performed on the
    whole genome including sites potentially affected by selection (Fig. S19) rather suggests that
    early farmers are closer to Southern Europeans other than Sardinians.”
    however, we have a historical analysis and therefore the DNA studies must take a combinatorial approach, so as not to sound absurd against the background of already well-established facts.

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    Just saw those on Anthrogenica:

    "And yet the latter, if brought under, might be kept under; while the Sicilians, even if conquered, are too far off and too numerous to be ruled without difficulty."

    "The same winter the Athenians resolved to sail again to Sicily, with a greater armament than that under Laches and Eurymedon, and, if possible, to conquer the island; most of them being ignorant of its size and of the number of its inhabitants, hellenic and barbarian, and of the fact that they were undertaking a war not much inferior to that against the Peloponnesians."

    - History of the Peloponesian war, Thuclydides, 4th century BC.

    "If it were enacted Marius and Sulpicius would have everything they wanted, because the new citizens [then socii] far outnumbered the old ones. The old citizens saw this and opposed the new ones with all their might. They fought each other with sticks and stones, and the evil increased continually, till the consuls, becoming apprehensive, as the day for voting on the law drew near, proclaimed a vacation​ of several days, such as was customary on festal occasions, in order to postpone the voting and the danger."

    - Appian, The Civil wars, The Histories

    Nearly complete replacement of Bronze Age/Early Iron Age Sicilians, eh?
    Was Thucydides seeing ghosts?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    I'm with Archetype0ne here, in terms of coincidence you find today, which is an artifact of subsequent impurities. This is similar to how some populations that have nothing to do with European farmers on the same principle float closer to them today. This is due to very late arobo-Semitic impurities that clearly mimic Anatolian origins and have nothing to do with the EEF.* The same is true for the Minoans and Mycenaeans, of course.
    *“However, a MDS analysis performed on the
    whole genome including sites potentially affected by selection (Fig. S19) rather suggests that
    early farmers are closer to Southern Europeans other than Sardinians.”
    however, we have a historical analysis and therefore the DNA studies must take a combinatorial approach, so as not to sound absurd against the background of already well-established facts.
    Impurities, wtf are you saying?

    Your ancestors are closer to Southern Italians than they are to you, which is why you disapprove. Deal with it.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I did not want to take part in the "nativist vs immigrationist" debate, since I think that new papers will make the picture clearer, and I have already presented my issues with the last paper on the Etruscans.
    Even if they decided to take the route of that paper, postulating an obviously ridicolous massive migration from the Levant to Italy and then from north Europe to Italy, this time such a scenario would be much harder to conciliate with the data: the Sicilians in the IA were identical to those in the BA, and it is very unlikely that Sicily's gene pool was just confined to Sicily, and the Daunian paper shows that not every inhabitant of Italy was Italic-like, pace to those that had "high hopes" of seeing their petty theories straight from the 20th century about Italy confirmed.
    The leaked PCA from the upcoming study of Campania has some points/samples that do not fall in three groups, and I wonder what they are: let's remember that Italic weren't the first people in Italy.
    Main take away: before postulating that half of the inhabitants of Italy at some point came from the Levant or the middle east at some point, it is a priori much likelier that there was internal gene flow in Italy, and then from neighbouring regions like the Balkans, and then regions further away; IA samples from the rest of south Italy would shed more light on the issue.

    P.S. As for the topic of the thread, I am willing to bet that there was no cline in Italy from Latin_IA to Aegean_IA because it makes literally no sense, but there are some chances there was a cline from Latin_IA to Sicilian_IA/BA, so not much different from a hypothetical Latin_IA-Aegean_IA cline. I think it would answere the question in this thread.
    The question is WHEN did these Levant and Middle-East communities enter Italy

    We only have Romans occupying modern Albania from the Macedonias just before the hannibal wars and never letting it go.

    Then we have Roman outposts in western Asia-Minor from circa 88BC ( from the Greek Seleucid empire ) ..........................the bulk of levant and middle-eastern movements to Italy happened under Imperial Rome and Not under republican Rome times
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    ^^AND it was reduced and disappeared in the following era...

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The question is WHEN did these Levant and Middle-East communities enter Italy
    We only have Romans occupying modern Albania from the Macedonias just before the hannibal wars and never letting it go.
    Then we have Roman outposts in western Asia-Minor from circa 88BC ( from the Greek Seleucid empire ) ..........................the bulk of levant and middle-eastern movements to Italy happened under Imperial Rome and Not under republican Rome times
    This is why I wanted to keep myself out of this pointless discussion: no one denies Levantines and middle easteners entered in Italy (we have samples from the Antonio et al paper, those in the C4 cluster), but it is starting to look as if the "east med" gene flow was actually from south Italy or the Balkans; the point isn't to deny a priori any eventual contribution from the Levant or the middle east in the Italian gene pool, but the scenario in which Italians are Italics+Levantines+Germanics honestly sounds too far fetched, and it is grounded on false premises (as that all Italy was Italic-like).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    This is why I wanted to keep myself out of this pointless discussion: no one denies Levantines and middle easteners entered in Italy (we have samples from the Antonio et al paper, those in the C4 cluster), but it is starting to look as if the "east med" gene flow was actually from south Italy or the Balkans; the point isn't to deny a priori any eventual contribution from the Levant or the middle east in the Italian gene pool, but the scenario in which Italians are Italics+Levantines+Germanics honestly sounds too far fetched, and it is grounded on false premises (as that all Italy was Italic-like).
    Exactly, Italy was basically genetically mirroring the Balkans during the IA. You had a Northern group and a southern group in both peninsulas, and people that fall on that gradient. Big changes happened in the middle ages in the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I did not want to take part in the "nativist vs immigrationist" debate, since I think that new papers will make the picture clearer, and I have already presented my issues with the last paper on the Etruscans.
    Even if they decided to take the route of that paper, postulating an obviously ridicolous massive migration from the Levant to Italy and then from north Europe to Italy, this time such a scenario would be much harder to conciliate with the data: the Sicilians in the IA were identical to those in the BA, and it is very unlikely that Sicily's gene pool was just confined to Sicily, and the Daunian paper shows that not every inhabitant of Italy was Italic-like, pace to those that had "high hopes" of seeing their petty theories straight from the 20th century about Italy confirmed.
    The leaked PCA from the upcoming study of Campania has some points/samples that do not fall in three groups, and I wonder what they are: let's remember that Italic weren't the first people in Italy.
    Main take away: before postulating that half of the inhabitants of Italy at some point came from the Levant or the middle east at some point, it is a priori much likelier that there was internal gene flow in Italy, and then from neighbouring regions like the Balkans, and then regions further away; IA samples from the rest of south Italy would shed more light on the issue.

    P.S. As for the topic of the thread, I am willing to bet that there was no cline in Italy from Latin_IA to Aegean_IA because it makes literally no sense, but there are some chances there was a cline from Latin_IA to Sicilian_IA/BA, so not much different from a hypothetical Latin_IA-Aegean_IA cline. I think it would answere the question in this thread.
    When did I say there was a Latin_IA to Aegean_IA cline?!

    I said it was R1 to Aegean_IA cline, which is consistent with using the Balkan_IA model as a proxy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
    3.50880321 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
    3.55522151 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
    3.74988000 Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
    4.09436198 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
    4.73285326 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    4.75513407 C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
    5.13872552 Collegno23:Amorim_2018
    5.14213963 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    5.21295502 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    5.43897049 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    5.48600036 I3593:Olalde_2018
    5.55054051 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    5.55906467 Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
    5.56696506 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    5.80672024 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    6.35463610 Szolad31:Amorim_2018
    6.35757029 La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
    6.40659036 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
    6.54488350 MOK13:Zegarac_2021
    6.64578062 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    6.84447222 CSN009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.86396387 ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.98428951 Collegno49:Amorim_2018
    6.99671351 I7040:Olalde_2018
    7.35485554 Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019






    If the model of Solvenian_IA + Aegean_IA can create a cline of people that plot over Tuscans to south Italian, I think a R1 (Croatian_BA-like, which is similar and aligned to Slovenian_IA) + Aegean_IA can produce a similar population in Italy. Which is perhaps why we already have Iron Age samples that fall upon this cline, in Italy.
    Maybe you should actually read what I wrote in the first post of the thread, instead of claiming what I said makes no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Impurities, wtf are you saying?
    Your ancestors are closer to Southern Italians than they are to you, which is why you disapprove. Deal with it.
    They are not closer to southern Italians and I have already mentioned why. It divides you time and space, you have not been formed as an ethnic group yet.
    quote: "most European farmers
    are genetically closer to Central and Northwestern (NW) Anatolian farmers than to Pre-Pottery
    Neolithic (PPN) farmers of the Southern Levant or the Zagros region of Western Iran, who
    were genetically well differentiated. "
    You have more in common with other Western Europeans plus a lot of Semitic blood, so you are quite far from us both in time and place of formation.
    You have a mixture that accidentally puts you closer to a Balkan population that has obviously undergone a genetic change over time and there is no way
    today the same people to coincide with you or the ancestors of that time. In other words, the Balkans are at a crossroads, the locals have also undergone changes like the whole of Europe, but the locals have obviously not disappeared. Their influence has spread far and wide in all directions.
    You speak a language from the IE group today only thanks to the cultural influence of my ancestors.
    You want to have something in common, and I know I have, that's the difference between us. I am a direct descendant of the locals culturally, historically, linguistics, genetically , regardless of the assimilated new ones, because here we have continuity at every point, including parallels with the oldest Balkan writing which show parallels with the later linear A and B and with Glagolitic and Old Bulgarian runes. Mycenaean inscriptions have interesting names mentioned and they are neither Italian nor Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    They are not closer to southern Italians and I have already mentioned why. It divides you time and space, you have not been formed as an ethnic group yet.
    quote: "most European farmers
    are genetically closer to Central and Northwestern (NW) Anatolian farmers than to Pre-Pottery
    Neolithic (PPN) farmers of the Southern Levant or the Zagros region of Western Iran, who
    were genetically well differentiated. "
    You have more in common with other Western Europeans plus a lot of Semitic blood, so you are quite far from us both in time and place of formation.
    You have a mixture that accidentally puts you closer to a Balkan population that has obviously undergone a genetic change over time and there is no way
    today the same people to coincide with you or the ancestors of that time. In other words, the Balkans are at a crossroads, the locals have also undergone changes like the whole of Europe, but the locals have obviously not disappeared. Their influence has spread far and wide in all directions.
    You speak a language from the IE group today only thanks to the cultural influence of my ancestors.
    You want to have something in common, and I know I have, that's the difference between us. I am a direct descendant of the local cultural, historical, linguistic, genetic, regardless of the assimilated new ones, because here we have continuity at every point, including parallels with the oldest Balkan signs which show parallels with the later linear a and b and with Glagolitic and Old Bulgarian runes.
    Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.

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    You have almost nothing to do with these people:

    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    9.93399839 Italian_Marche
    10.06689624 French_Corsica
    10.48634827 Italian_Campania
    10.82355302 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.46389114 Italian_Lazio
    11.62009036 Italian_Romagna
    12.30486489 Italian_Sicily
    12.77579352 Italian_Calabria
    13.08537351 Italian_Tuscany
    13.42223901 Ashkenazi_Jews
    13.47702489 Italian_Apulia
    13.72006195 Greek_Athens
    14.07487478 Greek_Central
    14.51890836 Greek_Foca
    14.57305047 Italian_Emilia
    14.58877651 Albanian
    14.69527815 Moldovan_Jewish
    15.00197987 Greek_Lemnos
    15.14945214 Italian_Liguria
    15.27454091 Greek_Icaria
    15.35805977 Italian_Jews
    15.46250950 Greek_Izmir
    15.83988005 Greek_Peloponnese
    15.89330991 Greek_Fournoi
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.31570716 Greek_Thrace
    16.62914911 Greek_Thessaly
    16.97911658 Greek_Thessaloniki
    17.08565480 Greek_Crete
    17.23798712 Italian_Lombardy
    17.56960728 Albanian_Kosovo
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    17.90415315 Greek_Kos
    18.09109726 Greek_Rhodes
    18.75633760 Italian_Piedmont
    18.75888323 Italian_Veneto
    19.23244134 Bulgarian_Thrace
    19.34208882 Macedonian_South
    19.97022784 Macedonian_Vardar
    20.43432896 Greek_Macedonia
    20.47465751 Turk_Makedonya
    21.06948030 Italian_Friuli_VG
    21.19744354 Swiss_Italian
    21.22313832 Macedonian_East
    21.84876427 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    22.09046401 Macedonian_Polog
    22.33944493 Italian_Trentino
    22.76021529 Turk_Cyprus
    22.95812928 Sardinian
    23.22266996 Bulgarian_East
    23.27446025 Moldovan_Gagauz
    23.41369471 Turk_Trakya
    24.14725450 Greek_Cypriot
    24.20697833 Spanish_Canarias
    24.61627510 Bulgarian_Central
    24.95553646 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
    24.96455287 Spanish_Baleares
    25.03997604 Turk_Deliorman
    25.07955741 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    25.37242795 Portuguese
    25.50004510 Pomak_Bulgaria
    25.62808030 Bulgarian_West
    25.89377338 Pomak_Greece
    25.94147259 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    26.03606921 Moldovan_South
    26.07655844 Romanian
    26.40204538 Spanish_Valencia
    26.44984121 Greek_Cappadocia
    26.85663605 Turk_West_BlackSea
    27.17547976 Turk_Northwest
    27.46114710 Montenegrin
    27.51541386 Spanish_Andalusia
    27.53951162 Spanish_Catalonia
    28.06417823 Turk_Southwest
    28.24661927 Spanish_Aragon
    28.27168902 Spanish_Galicia
    28.32023658 Turk_Central_West
    28.79363992 Spanish_Asturias
    29.24099861 Nusayri_Turkey
    29.31651582 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.34026862 Turk_Central_East
    30.88389710 Spanish_La_Rioja
    30.95594935 Turk_South
    31.02476430 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
    31.21045017 Serb
    31.23947503 Lebanese_Christian
    31.40061146 Lebanese_Muslim
    32.07274856 Palestinian_Christian
    32.24265653 Jordanian_Christian
    32.46694011 Palestinian
    32.51912975 Turk_Southeast
    32.57728657 Syrian_SW_Christian
    33.18760009 Moldovan_Central
    33.36607259 Jordanian_Muslim
    33.60565131 Bavarian_German
    34.10900174 Turk_East
    34.15463219 French_Northeast
    34.19288669 Syrian_Muslim
    34.51146186 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
    34.78966082 French_Southwest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.
    That was not Slavs but assimilated by us Balts, Ugro Finns and Turks from Northern Europe. The name of our states formations is clear why is that. They came with Asparuh where free Moesians mixed with more northern people before to strike back and return to the old lands to the south of Danube. We know well there is Moesia/ Mizia at Asia Minor too, so everything fits well with my knowledge. You can be assimilated Balkan if you like, I am a Balkan Balkan, the real heir of the local traditions, culture, language and their memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You have almost nothing to do with these people:

    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    9.93399839 Italian_Marche
    10.06689624 French_Corsica
    10.48634827 Italian_Campania
    10.82355302 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.46389114 Italian_Lazio
    11.62009036 Italian_Romagna
    12.30486489 Italian_Sicily
    12.77579352 Italian_Calabria
    13.08537351 Italian_Tuscany
    13.42223901 Ashkenazi_Jews
    13.47702489 Italian_Apulia
    13.72006195 Greek_Athens
    14.07487478 Greek_Central
    14.51890836 Greek_Foca
    14.57305047 Italian_Emilia
    14.58877651 Albanian
    14.69527815 Moldovan_Jewish
    15.00197987 Greek_Lemnos
    15.14945214 Italian_Liguria
    15.27454091 Greek_Icaria
    15.35805977 Italian_Jews
    15.46250950 Greek_Izmir
    15.83988005 Greek_Peloponnese
    15.89330991 Greek_Fournoi
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.31570716 Greek_Thrace
    16.62914911 Greek_Thessaly
    16.97911658 Greek_Thessaloniki
    17.08565480 Greek_Crete
    17.23798712 Italian_Lombardy
    17.56960728 Albanian_Kosovo
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    17.90415315 Greek_Kos
    18.09109726 Greek_Rhodes
    18.75633760 Italian_Piedmont
    18.75888323 Italian_Veneto
    19.23244134 Bulgarian_Thrace
    19.34208882 Macedonian_South
    19.97022784 Macedonian_Vardar
    20.43432896 Greek_Macedonia
    20.47465751 Turk_Makedonya
    21.06948030 Italian_Friuli_VG
    21.19744354 Swiss_Italian
    21.22313832 Macedonian_East
    21.84876427 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    22.09046401 Macedonian_Polog
    22.33944493 Italian_Trentino
    22.76021529 Turk_Cyprus
    22.95812928 Sardinian
    23.22266996 Bulgarian_East
    23.27446025 Moldovan_Gagauz
    23.41369471 Turk_Trakya
    24.14725450 Greek_Cypriot
    24.20697833 Spanish_Canarias
    24.61627510 Bulgarian_Central
    24.95553646 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
    24.96455287 Spanish_Baleares
    25.03997604 Turk_Deliorman
    25.07955741 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    25.37242795 Portuguese
    25.50004510 Pomak_Bulgaria
    25.62808030 Bulgarian_West
    25.89377338 Pomak_Greece
    25.94147259 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    26.03606921 Moldovan_South
    26.07655844 Romanian
    26.40204538 Spanish_Valencia
    26.44984121 Greek_Cappadocia
    26.85663605 Turk_West_BlackSea
    27.17547976 Turk_Northwest
    27.46114710 Montenegrin
    27.51541386 Spanish_Andalusia
    27.53951162 Spanish_Catalonia
    28.06417823 Turk_Southwest
    28.24661927 Spanish_Aragon
    28.27168902 Spanish_Galicia
    28.32023658 Turk_Central_West
    28.79363992 Spanish_Asturias
    29.24099861 Nusayri_Turkey
    29.31651582 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.34026862 Turk_Central_East
    30.88389710 Spanish_La_Rioja
    30.95594935 Turk_South
    31.02476430 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
    31.21045017 Serb
    31.23947503 Lebanese_Christian
    31.40061146 Lebanese_Muslim
    32.07274856 Palestinian_Christian
    32.24265653 Jordanian_Christian
    32.46694011 Palestinian
    32.51912975 Turk_Southeast
    32.57728657 Syrian_SW_Christian
    33.18760009 Moldovan_Central
    33.36607259 Jordanian_Muslim
    33.60565131 Bavarian_German
    34.10900174 Turk_East
    34.15463219 French_Northeast
    34.19288669 Syrian_Muslim
    34.51146186 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
    34.78966082 French_Southwest
    Distance to: Jovialis
    11.53736972 Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You have almost nothing to do with these people:

    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    9.93399839 Italian_Marche
    10.06689624 French_Corsica
    10.48634827 Italian_Campania
    10.82355302 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.46389114 Italian_Lazio
    11.62009036 Italian_Romagna
    12.30486489 Italian_Sicily
    12.77579352 Italian_Calabria
    13.08537351 Italian_Tuscany
    13.42223901 Ashkenazi_Jews
    13.47702489 Italian_Apulia
    13.72006195 Greek_Athens
    14.07487478 Greek_Central
    14.51890836 Greek_Foca
    14.57305047 Italian_Emilia
    14.58877651 Albanian
    14.69527815 Moldovan_Jewish
    15.00197987 Greek_Lemnos
    15.14945214 Italian_Liguria
    15.27454091 Greek_Icaria
    15.35805977 Italian_Jews
    15.46250950 Greek_Izmir
    15.83988005 Greek_Peloponnese
    15.89330991 Greek_Fournoi
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.31570716 Greek_Thrace
    16.62914911 Greek_Thessaly
    16.97911658 Greek_Thessaloniki
    17.08565480 Greek_Crete
    17.23798712 Italian_Lombardy
    17.56960728 Albanian_Kosovo
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    17.90415315 Greek_Kos
    18.09109726 Greek_Rhodes
    18.75633760 Italian_Piedmont
    18.75888323 Italian_Veneto
    19.23244134 Bulgarian_Thrace
    19.34208882 Macedonian_South
    19.97022784 Macedonian_Vardar
    20.43432896 Greek_Macedonia
    20.47465751 Turk_Makedonya
    21.06948030 Italian_Friuli_VG
    21.19744354 Swiss_Italian
    21.22313832 Macedonian_East
    21.84876427 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    22.09046401 Macedonian_Polog
    22.33944493 Italian_Trentino
    22.76021529 Turk_Cyprus
    22.95812928 Sardinian
    23.22266996 Bulgarian_East
    23.27446025 Moldovan_Gagauz
    23.41369471 Turk_Trakya
    24.14725450 Greek_Cypriot
    24.20697833 Spanish_Canarias
    24.61627510 Bulgarian_Central
    24.95553646 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
    24.96455287 Spanish_Baleares
    25.03997604 Turk_Deliorman
    25.07955741 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    25.37242795 Portuguese
    25.50004510 Pomak_Bulgaria
    25.62808030 Bulgarian_West
    25.89377338 Pomak_Greece
    25.94147259 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    26.03606921 Moldovan_South
    26.07655844 Romanian
    26.40204538 Spanish_Valencia
    26.44984121 Greek_Cappadocia
    26.85663605 Turk_West_BlackSea
    27.17547976 Turk_Northwest
    27.46114710 Montenegrin
    27.51541386 Spanish_Andalusia
    27.53951162 Spanish_Catalonia
    28.06417823 Turk_Southwest
    28.24661927 Spanish_Aragon
    28.27168902 Spanish_Galicia
    28.32023658 Turk_Central_West
    28.79363992 Spanish_Asturias
    29.24099861 Nusayri_Turkey
    29.31651582 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.34026862 Turk_Central_East
    30.88389710 Spanish_La_Rioja
    30.95594935 Turk_South
    31.02476430 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
    31.21045017 Serb
    31.23947503 Lebanese_Christian
    31.40061146 Lebanese_Muslim
    32.07274856 Palestinian_Christian
    32.24265653 Jordanian_Christian
    32.46694011 Palestinian
    32.51912975 Turk_Southeast
    32.57728657 Syrian_SW_Christian
    33.18760009 Moldovan_Central
    33.36607259 Jordanian_Muslim
    33.60565131 Bavarian_German
    34.10900174 Turk_East
    34.15463219 French_Northeast
    34.19288669 Syrian_Muslim
    34.51146186 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
    34.78966082 French_Southwest
    We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Jovialis
    11.53736972 Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...266#post632266
    and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
    According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.

    Distance to: PIV
    4.77881785 Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR310:Veeramah_2018
    6.45128669 Scythian:scy305:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    8.01291458 MAS001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.12929899 I3596:Olalde_2018
    9.38264888 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    9.42110397 ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.49773131 Szolad37:Amorim_2018
    9.50791249 Altenerding-Klettham_480-519AD_Female:AED513:Veeramah_2018
    9.96866089 Szolad1:Amorim_2018
    10.35228477 Bulgaria_EBA:I2165:Mathieson_2018
    10.55006161 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
    10.80719205 Scythian:scy301:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    11.10251773 NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
    11.83661692 I3592:Olalde_2018
    11.88024411 Szolad20:Amorim_2018

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.


    I get these percentages for a reason, it is not a fantasy. I am not the one that claims I am genetically similar to your ancestors, it is simply a biological reality, and I am acknowledging that.

    R1+ Aegean_IA



    Results in the same as this:


  18. #68
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...266#post632266
    and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
    According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.
    BUL_IA is not an outlier (I have told others that before the Danubian paper), in fact several Serbian late antiquity samples plot south of it.
    Southern Thracians were probably more southern shifted given the circumstances.

    As for EBA samples they are more northern shifted because they are related with spread of the Steppe ancestry during the Early Bronze Age therefore they are unadmixed, later they become into what are the Thracians. The Iron Age and Late Antiquity samples represent what Thracians of Bulgaria actually were like.
    Last edited by ihype02; 16-10-21 at 23:38.

  19. #69
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    And I get sample R1 as my top match
    via balkans



  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Jovialis
    11.53736972 Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    Distance to: S
    11.65080684 Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    When did I say there was a Latin_IA to Aegean_IA cline?!

    I said it was R1 to Aegean_IA cline, which is consistent with using the Balkan_IA model as a proxy.
    Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

    R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

    R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.

    so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.
    I have my own culture and heritage, so I don't need to claim yours. Let me scale this back a bit, of course you're linked to the native Iron Age Balkanites more directly, as well as the rest of the modern native Balkanites, they are a part of your history. However, it seems to me that the Iron Age Balkans, and Iron Age Italy, particularly the Adriatic side had genetic similarities. Further, it seems that Italy retained more of that specific genetic profile. Of course Italians have been augmented too, since the Iron Age. But I think it is clear, that there was a North Eastern European enrichment in the Balkan peninsula during the Middle Ages. The arrival of these people who mixed with the people prior was the ethnogenesis of the modern Balkans. Frankly, I don't see why some people are furious at this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???
    Yeah, there's nothing in the supplement that says so. They still have the VEN samples from the Etruscan paper as "Samites", when we all know for a fact that they are from the Middle Ages.

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    All of the Albanians who think I am trying to deny them of their ancestors should take a look at the chart I posted, modern Albanians are not that far off from the Balkans_IA. Even if it is 20-30% North Eastern European ancestry in the mix, I don't think that detracts from the idea that they are very much still related to these Iron Age people. Relatively speaking, that is not that much dilution. Lazaridis stated that there was continuity with the ancient Greeks, and modern Greeks, despite just about the same dilution. Nevertheless, some of the most vocal opponents of the Olalde et al. 2021 model comes from them. I would like to know why.

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