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Thread: Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    All of the Albanians who think I am trying to deny them of their ancestors should take a look at the chart I posted, modern Albanians are not that far off from the Balkans_IA. Even if it is 20-30% North Eastern European ancestry in the mix, I don't think that detracts from the idea that they are very much still related to these Iron Age people. Relatively speaking, that is not that much dilution. Lazaridis stated that there was continuity with the ancient Greeks, and modern Greeks, despite just about the same dilution. Nevertheless, some of the most vocal opponents of the Olalde et al. 2021 model comes from them. I would like to know why.
    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    9.93399839 Italian_Marche
    10.06689624 French_Corsica
    10.48634827 Italian_Campania
    10.82355302 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.46389114 Italian_Lazio
    11.62009036 Italian_Romagna
    12.30486489 Italian_Sicily
    12.77579352 Italian_Calabria
    13.08537351 Italian_Tuscany
    13.42223901 Ashkenazi_Jews
    13.47702489 Italian_Apulia
    13.72006195 Greek_Athens
    14.07487478 Greek_Central
    14.51890836 Greek_Foca
    14.57305047 Italian_Emilia
    14.58877651 Albanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
    3.50880321 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
    3.55522151 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
    3.74988000 Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
    4.09436198 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
    4.73285326 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    4.75513407 C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
    5.13872552 Collegno23:Amorim_2018
    5.14213963 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    5.21295502 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    5.43897049 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    5.48600036 I3593:Olalde_2018
    5.55054051 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    5.55906467 Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
    5.56696506 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    5.80672024 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    6.35463610 Szolad31:Amorim_2018
    6.35757029 La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
    6.40659036 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
    6.54488350 MOK13:Zegarac_2021
    6.64578062 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    6.84447222 CSN009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.86396387 ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.98428951 Collegno49:Amorim_2018
    6.99671351 I7040:Olalde_2018
    7.35485554 Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019






    If the model of Solvenian_IA + Aegean_IA can create a cline of people that plot over Tuscans to south Italian, I think a R1 (Croatian_BA-like, which is similar and aligned to Slovenian_IA) + Aegean_IA can produce a similar population in Italy. Which is perhaps why we already have Iron Age samples that fall upon this cline, in Italy.


    Maciamo's "Italian_Greeks_(n=2)", which is a combination of R437 and R850 is a very good proxy for Aegean_IA, especially from the Greeks found in Campania, who plot between them.

    R1 + Aegean_IA for Italy works both historically, and modeling:


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    Who is opposing Olade et al? As far as I have seen, most Albanians are happy with that paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    BUL_IA is not an outlier (I have told others that before the Danubian paper), in fact several Serbian late antiquity samples plot south of it.
    Southern Thracians were probably more southern shifted given the circumstances.
    As for EBA samples they are more northern shifted because they are related with spread of the Steppe ancestry during the Early Bronze Age therefore they are unadmixed, later they become into what are the Thracians. The Iron Age and Late Antiquity samples represent what Thracians of Bulgaria actually were like.
    They are northern shifted but they are still the same people as you explained already why is that.
    Some were south shifted, others northerly, just as they are today, depending on who they border on and mix with. My mother line, which is present ( D. Nesheva's research) both in the proto-Bulgarians and in the 7 mt samples from bronze(depicted as thracians), is from the Danube today, ie northern Bulgaria. How plot today on the PCА north to south italy, or north-south germany, what is the range?
    So your remark who are the real Thracians was not accepted. The samples from the Thracians and the region in general from all epochs are few against the background of what is being done in northwestern Europe and against the background of what is de facto the historical and cultural significance of the Balkans at least from the Neolithic as well as for the IndoE question. The strange lack of interest of researchers, such as samples from Troy and northwestern Anatolia in general, a settlement of Thracians from ancient times, is impressive.
    Last edited by Blablabla; 17-10-21 at 09:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Maciamo's "Italian_Greeks_(n=2)", which is a combination of R437 and R850 is a very good proxy for Aegean_IA, especially from the Greeks found in Campania, who plot between them.
    R1 + Aegean_IA for Italy works both historically, and modeling:
    Your y dna line has nothing to do with Balkans or old Europe, that's for sure, but mine was found in both Thracians and proto Bulgarians.
    how the Semitic mixture affects (very visible with including south italy and Greece in you profile)and accidentally puts you in an area next to the Thracians is pure coincidence. I am just 100% east balkans, nothing from Italy nothing from greece ( I am local with the typical for locals components today).

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You have almost nothing to do with these people:
    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    9.93399839 Italian_Marche
    10.06689624 French_Corsica
    10.48634827 Italian_Campania
    10.82355302 Italian_Abruzzo
    11.46389114 Italian_Lazio
    11.62009036 Italian_Romagna
    12.30486489 Italian_Sicily
    12.77579352 Italian_Calabria
    13.08537351 Italian_Tuscany
    13.42223901 Ashkenazi_Jews
    13.47702489 Italian_Apulia
    13.72006195 Greek_Athens
    14.07487478 Greek_Central
    14.51890836 Greek_Foca
    14.57305047 Italian_Emilia
    14.58877651 Albanian
    14.69527815 Moldovan_Jewish
    15.00197987 Greek_Lemnos
    15.14945214 Italian_Liguria
    15.27454091 Greek_Icaria
    15.35805977 Italian_Jews
    15.46250950 Greek_Izmir
    15.83988005 Greek_Peloponnese
    15.89330991 Greek_Fournoi
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.31570716 Greek_Thrace
    16.62914911 Greek_Thessaly
    16.97911658 Greek_Thessaloniki
    17.08565480 Greek_Crete
    17.23798712 Italian_Lombardy
    17.56960728 Albanian_Kosovo
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    17.90415315 Greek_Kos
    18.09109726 Greek_Rhodes
    18.75633760 Italian_Piedmont
    18.75888323 Italian_Veneto
    19.23244134 Bulgarian_Thrace
    19.34208882 Macedonian_South
    19.97022784 Macedonian_Vardar
    20.43432896 Greek_Macedonia
    20.47465751 Turk_Makedonya
    21.06948030 Italian_Friuli_VG
    21.19744354 Swiss_Italian
    21.22313832 Macedonian_East
    21.84876427 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    22.09046401 Macedonian_Polog
    22.33944493 Italian_Trentino
    22.76021529 Turk_Cyprus
    22.95812928 Sardinian
    23.22266996 Bulgarian_East
    23.27446025 Moldovan_Gagauz
    23.41369471 Turk_Trakya
    24.14725450 Greek_Cypriot
    24.20697833 Spanish_Canarias
    24.61627510 Bulgarian_Central
    24.95553646 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
    24.96455287 Spanish_Baleares
    25.03997604 Turk_Deliorman
    25.07955741 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    25.37242795 Portuguese
    25.50004510 Pomak_Bulgaria
    25.62808030 Bulgarian_West
    25.89377338 Pomak_Greece
    25.94147259 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    26.03606921 Moldovan_South
    26.07655844 Romanian
    26.40204538 Spanish_Valencia
    26.44984121 Greek_Cappadocia
    26.85663605 Turk_West_BlackSea
    27.17547976 Turk_Northwest
    27.46114710 Montenegrin
    27.51541386 Spanish_Andalusia
    27.53951162 Spanish_Catalonia
    28.06417823 Turk_Southwest
    28.24661927 Spanish_Aragon
    28.27168902 Spanish_Galicia
    28.32023658 Turk_Central_West
    28.79363992 Spanish_Asturias
    29.24099861 Nusayri_Turkey
    29.31651582 Spanish_Cantabria
    30.34026862 Turk_Central_East
    30.88389710 Spanish_La_Rioja
    30.95594935 Turk_South
    31.02476430 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
    31.21045017 Serb
    31.23947503 Lebanese_Christian
    31.40061146 Lebanese_Muslim
    32.07274856 Palestinian_Christian
    32.24265653 Jordanian_Christian
    32.46694011 Palestinian
    32.51912975 Turk_Southeast
    32.57728657 Syrian_SW_Christian
    33.18760009 Moldovan_Central
    33.36607259 Jordanian_Muslim
    33.60565131 Bavarian_German
    34.10900174 Turk_East
    34.15463219 French_Northeast
    34.19288669 Syrian_Muslim
    34.51146186 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
    34.78966082 French_Southwest
    If we mix Eastern European and Japanese we might get Kazakhstan autosomal for example,if we mix mid east and north Europe we might get Balkans or Italy,Anatolia or whatever, depends on autosomal profile.So you can rather have ancestry that mimic similarity with Balkan people and not that you descent from these people but you're descendant of people with similar autosomal DNA.For the same reason Balkan man that is autosomal Italian does not make him Italian.And you're wrong if anyone in the world has to do with Balkan Iron age or BA inhabitants that would again be the modern inhabitants,since they did not jumped collectively out of the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    If we mix Eastern European and Japanese we might get Kazakhstan autosomal for example,if we mix mid east and north Europe we might get Balkans or Italy,Anatolia or whatever, depends on autosomal profile.So you can rather have ancestry that mimic similarity with Balkan people and not that you descent from these people but you're descendant of people with similar autosomal DNA.For the same reason Balkan man that is autosomal Italian does not make him Italian.And you're wrong if anyone in the world has to do with Balkan Iron age or BA inhabitants that would again be the modern inhabitants,since they did not jumped collectively out of the Balkans.
    My preferences mean nothing.

    The point is, Balkanites in the Iron Age were similar to Italians, and now they are not today, because of Northeastern European Ancestry. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    Also, R1 and Aegean_IA are a good fit, as I have demonstrated. Both of those ancestries are in Italy, and are consistent with history.

    Do you not read, not understand English? Or perhaps you are misrepresenting what I am saying on purpose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    Your y dna line has nothing to do with Balkans or old Europe, that's for sure, but mine was found in both Thracians and proto Bulgarians.
    how the Semitic mixture affects (very visible with including south italy and Greece in you profile)and accidentally puts you in an area next to the Thracians is pure coincidence. I am just 100% east balkans, nothing from Italy nothing from greece ( I am local with the typical for locals components today).
    Actually my Y-line does come from the Balkans in the Early Bronze Age, not that it even matters that much, since it is such a small part of the bigger picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    You are writing nonsense, disregarding historical reality and linguistic data. The Greeks are mixed with the locals, but this does not entitle them to claim old history today, just like the Turks. They are on lands with a history that does not really concern them.
    As I said, the Mycenaean documents support what I said, they did not speak Greek. The Greeks are Indo-Europeanized Semites.The old toponymy from Greece is eloquent.
    Read the Olalde paper, I didn't make up the model that shows that Italians plot with Iron Age Balkans.

    The reason is because they used to be the same kind of stock genetic profile, before the middle ages. The point is, the people in the Balkans have changed from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Maciamo's "Italian_Greeks_(n=2)", which is a combination of R437 and R850 is a very good proxy for Aegean_IA, especially from the Greeks found in Campania, who plot between them.

    R1 + Aegean_IA for Italy works both historically, and modeling:

    At Milian.M, does this look like something non-consistent with history and genetics? As I said in the first post, R1 (which is similar to Croatia_IA/BA) mixed with Aegean_IA, they were both in Italy. The Balkans used to have Northern Italian-like people, who mixed with Aegeans in the south. They don't exist anymore in the Balkans because of invasions in the middle ages.

    You have more to do with the Kuline Cluster, stop pretending like your people started in the Iron Age. Your ancestry came into existence when the Balkans was augmented by the Slavs in the middle ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    You are writing nonsense, disregarding historical reality and linguistic data. The Greeks are mixed with the locals, but this does not entitle them to claim old history today, just like the Turks. They are on lands with a history that does not really concern them.
    As I said, the Mycenaean documents support what I said, they did not speak Greek. The Greeks are Indo-Europeanized Semites.The old toponymy from Greece is eloquent.

    The only thing visible in this post is that you have a low-IQ.

    Don't think I don't know who you are either, because you are not that slick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Who is opposing Olade et al? As far as I have seen, most Albanians are happy with that paper.
    Archetype0ne, and yourself, from what I remember off the top of my head.

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    Also, my proposed model is even better for Italy, despite the fact that Balkans_IA is composed of similar sources:



    R1 (Croatia_IA/BA-like) + Aegean_IA

    Both of them existed in Italy in the Iron Age.

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    No one is furious at people who point out Sardinians are what many mainland Italians looked like before later augmentation. I find it strange some people are when it comes to the Balkans being similar to Italians before augmentation.

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    This IMO is more accurate.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8677% / 0.01867691
    41.0 BGR_IA
    37.2 Italian_Tuscany
    21.8 Ukrainian

    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.1909% / 0.01190940
    56.8 Polish
    26.8 BGR_IA
    16.4 Italian_Tuscany

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This IMO is more accurate.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8677% / 0.01867691
    41.0 BGR_IA
    37.2 Italian_Tuscany
    21.8 Ukrainian

    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.1909% / 0.01190940
    56.8 Polish
    26.8 BGR_IA
    16.4 Italian_Tuscany
    Albanians certainly do have a closer affinity to Bulgarian_IA than many others in the Balkans, about as much as Northern Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    If we mix Eastern European and Japanese we might get Kazakhstan autosomal for example,if we mix mid east and north Europe we might get Balkans or Italy,Anatolia or whatever, depends on autosomal profile.So you can rather have ancestry that mimic similarity with Balkan people and not that you descent from these people but you're descendant of people with similar autosomal DNA.For the same reason Balkan man that is autosomal Italian does not make him Italian.And you're wrong if anyone in the world has to do with Balkan Iron age or BA inhabitants that would again be the modern inhabitants,since they did not jumped collectively out of the Balkans.
    Are you really not aware that Jovialis didn't say anything that would contradict this?

    Many of my highest matches are to Balkan Early and Middle Bronze Age people. People north of me on the peninsula are even closer. It of course doesn't mean I'm descended from them. I'm descended from people who are a lot like them.

    Maybe try reading the posts again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    This IMO is more accurate.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8677% / 0.01867691
    41.0 BGR_IA
    37.2 Italian_Tuscany
    21.8 Ukrainian

    Target: Serbian
    Distance: 1.1909% / 0.01190940
    56.8 Polish
    26.8 BGR_IA
    16.4 Italian_Tuscany
    It's not historically plausible. Modern Tuscans didn't go to Albania or Serbia. It's also true, however, that Albanians are more "native" than Croatians, Serbs, Romanians etc.

    I've been saying that since the old dna-forums days, not that the Albanians ever give me credit for stopping the t-rolling against them calling them Turkish transplants.

    In fact, everything I ever predicted about the Balkans has been proven by ancient dna, even if the percentages leave something to be desired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's not historically plausible. Modern Tuscans didn't go to Albania or Serbia. It's also true, however, that Albanians are more "native" than Croatians, Serbs, Romanians etc.

    I've been saying that since the old dna-forums days, not that the Albanians ever give me credit for stopping the t-rolling against them calling them Turkish transplants.

    In fact, everything I ever predicted about the Balkans has been proven by ancient dna, even if the percentages leave something to be desired.
    Sorry but aren't you the one always saying Albanians are not of Illyrian stock? Mainly due to BA Croatia western PCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Archetype0ne, and yourself, from what I remember off the top of my head.
    I don't think I have ever said anything against that paper. In fact I think it's a great one, just wish they had shown more IA samples, but they will probably appear in future ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's not historically plausible. Modern Tuscans didn't go to Albania or Serbia. It's also true, however, that Albanians are more "native" than Croatians, Serbs, Romanians etc.

    I've been saying that since the old dna-forums days, not that the Albanians ever give me credit for stopping the t-rolling against them calling them Turkish transplants.

    In fact, everything I ever predicted about the Balkans has been proven by ancient dna, even if the percentages leave something to be desired.
    I was using Tuscans as a source for native Balkanites. Some late antiquity Roman samples overlap with Tuscans.

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    Blablabla is the Romanian tr0ll I'm sure. I'm not going to go through the exhaustive motions of refuting his claims of Myceneans being semtic. Honestly, I wonder if this person ate lead-paint chips as a child.

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    my main matches from MTA ...removed the AD noted ones


    1. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro
    930 BC - Genetic Distance: 4.903 - R1
    Top 100 % match vs all users


    7. Illyrian / Dalmatian
    1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.808 - I3313
    Top 98 % match vs all users


    10. Scythian Southern Moldova
    290 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.904 - scy197b
    Top 97 % match vs all users


    13. Copper Age Szigetszentmiklos Hungary
    2350 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.09 - I7043
    Top 98 % match vs all users



    17. Illyrian / Dalmatian
    1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.08 - I3313B
    Top 96 % match vs all users


    18. Illyrian / Dalmatian
    1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.11 - I3313C
    Top 96 % match vs all users
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Blablabla is the Romanian tr0ll I'm sure. I'm not going to go through the exhaustive motions of refuting his claims of Myceneans being semtic. Honestly, I wonder if this person ate lead-paint chips as a child.
    I avow Blablabla astonished me more than a time in more than a thread! An other way to reason?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    Sorry but aren't you the one always saying Albanians are not of Illyrian stock? Mainly due to BA Croatia western PCA.


    I have always said that Albanians were NOT descended from Turks, but probably had more "Native" Balkan stock than any of the other Balkanites except for the Greeks, as indeed they do.

    They have more Balkans Iron Age. Those are the only proximate samples we have.

    What is clear is that Northern Italians are closer autosomally to Croatia Bronze Age than are Albanians. The genetics don't lie. Just run the samples and see the closest populations. It's not Albanians. That doesn't mean, for the umpteenth time, that Northern Italians are descended from them. We're just descended from similar people. How difficult can that be to understand?

    Plus, who the hell said those are "Illyrian" samples? The "Illyrians" are actually attested much later, and we don't yet have Iron Age samples from their area. (The label Illyrians was first used by outsiders, in particular Ancient Greeks, at the beginning of the 8th century BC.) When we do have Iron Age samples from that area, we'll see how close, or distant, they are from Albanians. I personally hope they'll be close, just so our Albanian posters will stop with the paranoia.

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