Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 126 to 149 of 149

Thread: Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

  1. #126
    Viscount
    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    723

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I thought Corded Ware people were mainly R1a while the ancient Latini were mainly R1b.
    The problem is R1b-L23 is divided into Z2103+ and L51+. Bell Beaker, Corded Ware and Latini, are predominantly L51+. However, there are also Z2103+(Yamnaya z2109+) found in Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Latini.

    Suum cuique-ancient ochre elite burial cultures in Seredny Stih phase II, Yamnaya
    - ochre burials with wagons, copper cudgel ,tanged daggers,iron-powder, beads, iron tools -weapons. Turganik Dom2 -horses; horse head shaped scepters, Kernosovkiy idol horse .

  2. #127
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,013

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have no strong opinions on the origin of the Proto-Italics, since I'm not too educated on the topic. But my point is that the steppe admixture they brought was via intermediate groups ( i.e. Bell Beakers).

  3. #128
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    250


    Country: Italy



    I've read on Anthrogenica that the data collected by that fake Italian of Principe shows that Sicilians have Levantine Y haplos at significant amounts: I hate this idea that somehow data "collected" by delusional individuals with identity issues are preferred over the dozens of studies and samples from said studies.

  4. #129
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,699


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Nobody should be using private collections of genomes to prove anything whatsoever about anyone. Even if the "collectors" are honest, it's not a scientific sample.

    It's like people who post polls from the readers of a certain magazine and think it's as valuable as a poll by a polling company like Gallup which follows statistical rules in collecting random samples.

    Or, heck, it would be like me getting yDna from the people in the Apennines of Emilia and saying all the people in Emilia Romagna are 85% U-152.

    It's just stupid, and anyone with half a brain should know it.

    Plus, who could take seriously someone who thinks he's Jewish because he carries what he thinks is a Jewish yDna. Even if it's true about the yDna, whatever "Jewishness" was in him washed out long ago. What goes on in the minds of some of these Italian wannabe Jews, like that Calabrian rabbi, is beyond me. Why can't they accept their actual identity? What makes them feel better about themselves when they do this?

    Well, I suppose I could ask the same question of the idiotic Nordicist Italians.

    It just has to be accepted that there are some disturbed, identity confused people out there who are attracted to this hobby. The pity is that one branch of them has taken over a long- established site dedicated to population genetics.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #130
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,699


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lufta View Post
    The samples I used are not private collections. They are ancient samples found. As for the Albanian averages, they are over 100 Albanian samples , including my own , that have been gathered. What nobody should be doing is using Iron Age or Bronze Age samples to compare modern people. Let's rather use samples right before Slavic period

    Such as Illyrian samples from Illyricum or Vicanium





    Distance to: Histria
    0.01498791 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
    0.01623978 Italian_Piedmont
    0.01628291 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.01685090 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.01712691 Italian_Tuscany
    0.01720881 Albanian_Labëria
    0.01739315 Albanian_Pukë
    0.01766900 Albanian_Himarë
    0.01911879 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.01960680 Albanian_Korçë
    0.02025755 Swiss_Italian
    0.02041372 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02120641 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.02315338 Italian_Marche
    0.02397232 Albanian_Mirditë
    0.02413487 Italian_Liguria
    0.02456475 Italian_Umbria
    0.02480421 Italian_Veneto
    0.02502613 Albanian_Dibra
    0.02553547 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02592085 Albanian
    0.02593033 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02605302 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02668993 French_Corsica
    0.02680556 Greek_Macedonia






    Distance to: Pannonia_Savia
    0.01008664 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
    0.01058992 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.01186581 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.01319886 Albanian_Pukë
    0.01325533 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.01495366 Albanian_Labëria
    0.01591902 Italian_Piedmont
    0.01602170 Albanian_Korçë
    0.01634265 Albanian_Himarë
    0.01638115 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.01694924 Swiss_Italian
    0.01857338 Italian_Tuscany
    0.01971024 Albanian_Mirditë
    0.01973539 Albanian_Dibra
    0.02024482 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02071263 Albanian
    0.02205018 Italian_Veneto
    0.02244784 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02400965 Greek_Macedonia
    0.02523509 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.02570783 Rumelia_East
    0.02597000 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02653177 Italian_Marche
    0.02669377 Greek_Messenia
    0.02683460 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



    Distance to: Dalmatia
    0.01134221 Albanian_Himarë
    0.01159103 Italian_Tuscany
    0.01160401 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.01228527 Italian_Marche
    0.01305404 Albanian_Labëria
    0.01332171 Italian_Umbria
    0.01549999 Albanian_Pukë
    0.01559871 Greek_Thessaly
    0.01692635 Albanian_Mirditë
    0.01699319 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
    0.01841780 Italian_Lazio
    0.01873896 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.01921584 Italian_Piedmont
    0.01953018 Greek_Achaea
    0.02017517 Albanian_Dibra
    0.02045083 Greek_Argolis
    0.02046673 Greek_Messenia
    0.02079470 Greek_Elis
    0.02087670 Greek_Corinthia
    0.02094803 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02097447 Greek_East_Taygetos
    0.02109246 Italian_Molise
    0.02113415 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02135710 Albanian_Korçë
    0.02141235 Greek_Arcadia



    Obviously not entirely ''Italian like''




    Distance to: Roman_Dardania:Viminacium:Serbia_Viminacium:R9669_ __AD_220___Coverage_47.26%
    0.01488396 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
    0.01499980 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.01573347 Albanian_Labëria
    0.01578209 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.01586072 Albanian_Pukë
    0.01602089 Albanian_Himarë
    0.01761822 Greek_Thessaly
    0.01792886 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.01861593 Albanian_Korçë
    0.01870535 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.01940846 Italian_Tuscany
    0.01961279 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02038943 Albanian
    0.02060000 Albanian_Mirditë
    0.02128203 Swiss_Italian
    0.02193268 Albanian_Dibra
    0.02237420 Greek_Macedonia
    0.02272031 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02349211 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.02395840 Greek_Messenia
    0.02422429 Italian_Marche
    0.02477667 Greek_Achaea
    0.02534256 Greek_Elis
    0.02581312 Greek_Arcadia
    0.02605183 Greek_Argolis
    I have no idea who you are. If you're a recently banned Albanian posting under a sock, I'll make that two month ban a permanent one. Clear?

    Second of all, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Nobody was talking about Albanians or analyses using ancient samples. We were talking about a supposed Italian using MODERN SICILIAN samples from a private collection.

    For God's sake, EVERYTHING IS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT ALBANIANS! Most of us don't give a damn about the ethnogenesis of a small group of people in the Balkans.

    What I can SEE, is that a good many Italian areas show up as being very close to ancient Balkan samples, so you're rather proving the point of the thread.

    Also, the Iron Age samples under discussion are NOT just the ones from "Illyricum". Get a grip or you're going to be out of here before the end of the day.

  6. #131
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,013

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Lufta
    Stop evading ban you goddamn moron.

  7. #132
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    704


    Country: Germany



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I thought Corded Ware people were mainly R1a while the ancient Latini were mainly R1b.
    You‘re correct, the Corded Ware population was dominated by one single lineage: R1a-M417. With that being said, they weren't 100% R1a-M417. The Bohemia ancient DNA paper revealed that R1b-L151 is the most common Y-DNA among early CW men and one branch ancestral to R1b-P312, the dominant Y-lineage in Bell Beaker. So, the spread of hg. R1b-L151 (including the subclade R-U106) is now certainly associated with the expansion of the early Corded Ware people. Therefore, as suggested in the study, Bell Beakers probably formed to the west of Bohemia, closer to the Rhine, and spread from there in all directions ( into France, Italy, and Iberia, and northwest into Britain and Ireland).

    So, Bell Beaker was just a development from Single Grave Corded Ware. Furthermore, Proto-Italics partly descended from these Central European BB. That‘s why the Etruscans and Latins were majority R1b, specifically R1b-L2 and R1b-P312, which were of Bell Beaker and Corded Ware origin.



    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

  8. #133
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,554

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I have no strong opinions on the origin of the Proto-Italics, since I'm not too educated on the topic. But my point is that the steppe admixture they brought was via intermediate groups ( i.e. Bell Beakers).
    I think you are right here. I think the time we saw every IE "family" arriving directly from Steppes as successive waves of pure tribes is over even if it could be true for some of them (to be proved). More than a step led to the BA/IA diverse cultural/geographic situations. I see also Celts and Italics (and others) as descendants for a big part of BB's, what does not exclude later mixes and evolutions of course, which explain their differenciation. Personally I suppose that compared to proto-Celts, proto-Italics at some stage of their cristallisation stayer more in contact with Austria/Croatia pop's, so more southern and central Europe influences from Hungary and Balkans. Maybe seen from too high a point of view?

  9. #134
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    266


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    You‘re correct, the Corded Ware population was dominated by one single lineage: R1a-M417. With that being said, they weren't 100% R1a-M417. The Bohemia ancient DNA paper revealed that R1b-L151 is the most common Y-DNA among early CW men and one branch ancestral to R1b-P312, the dominant Y-lineage in Bell Beaker. So, the spread of hg. R1b-L151 (including the subclade R-U106) is now certainly associated with the expansion of the early Corded Ware people. Therefore, as suggested in the study, Bell Beakers probably formed to the west of Bohemia, closer to the Rhine, and spread from there in all directions ( into France, Italy, and Iberia, and northwest into Britain and Ireland).

    So, Bell Beaker was just a development from Single Grave Corded Ware. Furthermore, Proto-Italics partly descended from these Central European BB. That‘s why the Etruscans and Latins were majority R1b, specifically R1b-L2 and R1b-P312, which were of Bell Beaker and Corded Ware origin.



    Archaeology suggests the Italics might be descended from later Urnfield people, rather than directly from Bell Beaker. Is there any DNA evidence for that?
    Last edited by Philjames100; 31-10-22 at 07:33.

  10. #135
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,554

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Archaeology suggests the Italics might be descended from later Urnfield people, rather than directly from Bell Beaker. Is there any DNA evidence for that?
    It could be debated but it seems that the Urnfields label covers a lot of ethnies at diverse times in diverse places: it has been more a stage than an uniquely ethnic introgression. We see sometimes (Germany) "urnfield" women cremated along "local" men nhumated with "urnfield" swords! So, an Italics (and Celtic) genesis doesn't exclude at all a BB >> "Urnfield" route, with always the same male lineage until some late stage.

  11. #136
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,925

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It could be debated but it seems that the Urnfields label covers a lot of ethnies at diverse times in diverse places: it has been more a stage than an uniquely ethnic introgression. We see sometimes (Germany) "urnfield" women cremated along "local" men nhumated with "urnfield" swords! So, an Italics (and Celtic) genesis doesn't exclude at all a BB >> "Urnfield" route, with always the same male lineage until some late stage.
    I agree, it was more like a cultural complex, but it looks like the first Urnfielders came from somewhere in Carpathian Mountains.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0

    An admixture between the Tumulus/Hugelgraberkultur and between the Carpathian "Urnfielders" in Carpathian-Pannonian basin is what triggered in Late Bronze Age the Urnfield Cultural Complex and the spread of idea.

    I think that R1b-L51, some G2a, some I2a on Western Urnfielder side and most of E-V13, R1a in Eastern Urnfielder side is what constituted this cultural complex.

  12. #137
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,876


    Country: Austria



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Archaeology suggests the Italics might be descended from later Urnfield people, rather than directly from Bell Beaker. Is there any DNA evidence for that?
    I think that Provo-Villanovans being rather associated with the Venetic people, rather than the Italics, which just adopted these elements secondarily and were already there. DNA evidence for Urnfielders is always a tricky thing, because cremated remains can't be tested. Like we wouldn't know about the I2a Tollense warriors, which were presumably Eastern Urnfield Lusatians for the most part, without them having died in such a battle without being properly buried according to their customs.

  13. #138
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,554

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I agree, it was more like a cultural complex, but it looks like the first Urnfielders came from somewhere in Carpathian Mountains.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0

    An admixture between the Tumulus/Hugelgraberkultur and between the Carpathian "Urnfielders" in Carpathian-Pannonian basin is what triggered in Late Bronze Age the Urnfield Cultural Complex and the spread of idea.

    I think that R1b-L51, some G2a, some I2a on Western Urnfielder side and most of E-V13, R1a in Eastern Urnfielder side is what constituted this cultural complex.
    I am not a specialist. When I try to figure out a global sketch, It seems to me that the core region was somewhere between Eastern Austria, Hungary (rather northern?) , at first, with the cremation thing (spiritual and material) being by nature a "Hungarian" thing (geographically) inherited from more ancient Tells cultures of Neolithic origin, even if already at this time mixes with people of 'steppic' origin were born. Some scholars (Hungarian or Croatian origin, I forgot) spoke of a network generated on the long time by trade contacts and maybe exogamy, having created kind of an "intercompatibility" which has permited later some populations moves at rather average to small scale; it isn't impossible. Females and some skilled "professionals" (metallurgy etc...) could have taken part in this; that some elements of the ancient clannic pop's lineages more 'steppic'like would have changed habits and joined more "open" lineages of neolithic origin is very possible; between LBA and IA it seems the total monopole of some male lineages had disappeared even if some numerical dominance can perdure.
    But at first, Urnfields isn't really a Tumuli thing. They needed time before accept it.
    Concerning Riverman's remark, it's hard to answer safely without writings. Proto-Villanovans = S-E Veneti? Very possible, but... That some Italics were already in Northern Italy by this time? Possivle too. Some old scholars thought the Terramare (which accepted Urnfield with some "prudence") were ancestors of the Qw- Italic people, or of proto-Latins more precisely. But someones thought about Ligurians, I think. Question: Could the brutal passage to Urnfields in Eastern Emilia be put on the account of Veneti? I don't know. possible: someones say Veneti cut Qw- Italics from P- Italics; maybe first southern Veneti were expelled there by subsequent Osco-Umbrians???
    Only guess without texts.

  14. #139
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,876


    Country: Austria



    2 members found this post helpful.
    The issue with the Tumulus people adopting cremation must be seen in the context of their expansion into the Carpathian. First they pushed and largely annihilated the Encrusted Pottery people, which remains fled to the Balkans, then they pushed onwards to Fzesabony-Otomani.

    They created a kind of colony with the Carpathian Tumulus culture (important site/old name Egyek) and Egyek centre influenced the remains of the Pannonian groups which were gathered in Piliny (pre-Kyjatice). Therefore Piliny is a syncretistic culture with contacts to both the Western Tumulus culture and the Eastern Otomani-Suciu de Sus people, which practised cremation. Piliny-Kyjatice is therefore the direct link between the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture and the cremating East Carpathian people (early East Otomani, Suciu de Sus and Wietenberg).

    There was a fluent border from: Middle Danubian Tumulus culture -> Carpathian Tumulus culture -> Piliny -> Berkesz-Demecser -> Suciu de Sus/Lapus. Berkesz-Demecser and Lapus being the primary Pre-Gva groups.

    I guess it was from this mixed Tumulus-Carpathian context that the new religious ideas being spread in the Tumulus culture sphere and this created the Urnfield phenomenon as such. There were also Greek-Mycenaean aspects involved, which too might have been transmitted by the intermediate groups to the South and East, because Suciu de Sus being noted as having close Mycenaean contacts also, for such a relatively Northern group.

  15. #140
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,925

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    I came across R.Rocca's response on Riverman, saying that he is completely wrong about Naue II swords and that the origin is Terramare Culture, and he backs his assumption and complain with a youtube video lol.

    Naue II clearly has more diversity in Carpathian-Pannonian basin, the Naue I prototype of Naue II origin is somewhere in Germany, and it comes as no surprise that we can assume that the Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus warriors when they crossed the Alps toward Carpathian Mountains somewhere in 1600-1500 B.C brought the Naue I swords with them, and much probably Naue II were invented somewhere in Carpathians as an improvement over the older Naue I. That's logical.

    Now, Naue II might have been introduced in Northern Italy via Urnfield influence, Proto-Villanovan culture has some peculiar similarities with Balkan-Carpathian Vatin, Gava and some other Pannonian Urnfield Cultures. So, there you have the connection. No direct migration should be involved from Gava, Vatin, just shared ideas, cultural flow. The people who might have migrated and influence Proto-Villanovans might have been western neighbors of Vatin/Gava. Middle-Danubian Urnfielders likely!?

    Check the figure below, the density, it just make more sense what i am saying. What other connecting dots would there be between Carpathian-Pannonian basin and Jutland/North except for Tumulus/Hugelgraberkultur as initial originator of Naue I, then Naue II early development?! Fully formed Naue II might have been already spread and formed not only by Tumulus but also Eastern Urnfielders like Gava and related Balkan-Carpathian tribes.



    Density of Naue II swords. The isolines represent the average number of swords within a radius of 250km. The highest density (c. 180) occurs in Jutland. The dots represent one or more Naue II finds.


    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_292397599


  16. #141
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,876


    Country: Austria



    We know that Urnfield artisans migrated and created workshops. E.g. Gva smiths did move to Lusatian and Middle Danubian areas, or down the Balkans. But while these migrations are proven, bullet-proven is only the migration of a master and probable of some of his workers, not necessarily something on a larger scale.
    The development of this sword type is a complicated matter in some ways, but what is known for sure is that it spread in the Balkans North of Greece primarily via Gva-related workshops. That's really beyond doubt. Greece itself received direct input from Italy and the West Balkans from the Middle Danubians of course.

    I made a map for the main groups of interest and the related sword finds:



    Based on the distribution map from the same paper:
    https://www.academia.edu/21306979/Th...tance_Mobility

  17. #142
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We know that Urnfield artisans migrated and created workshops. E.g. G�va smiths did move to Lusatian and Middle Danubian areas, or down the Balkans. But while these migrations are proven, bullet-proven is only the migration of a master and probable of some of his workers, not necessarily something on a larger scale.
    The development of this sword type is a complicated matter in some ways, but what is known for sure is that it spread in the Balkans North of Greece primarily via G�va-related workshops. That's really beyond doubt. Greece itself received direct input from Italy and the West Balkans from the Middle Danubians of course.

    I made a map for the main groups of interest and the related sword finds:



    Based on the distribution map from the same paper:
    https://www.academia.edu/21306979/Th...tance_Mobility

    correct me if i am in error....but i do not recall etruscan being proto-villonovan.......they where just Villonovan.............with this proto-villonovan went from north central italy to north east italy and half way down the adriatic coastal line in italy
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  18. #143
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,876


    Country: Austria



    I just marked the Naue II finds of this map. The total distribution of the cultures could differ. Belegis II-Gva gor example did expand with daughter groups down, derp into the Balkans.

  19. #144
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    266


    Country: United Kingdom



    Just when you thought you had begun to understand Balkans archaeology, they start coming up with new cultures and sticking them together with new compound names. (joke btw)

  20. #145
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I just marked the Naue II finds of this map. The total distribution of the cultures could differ. Belegis II-G�va gor example did expand with daughter groups down, derp into the Balkans.

    Naue II sword finds have been from North -Italy

    https://www.bronze-age-craft.com/Naue_II.htm

    As early as 1450 BCE in northern Italy came an early type of a sword now known as the Naue II.

  21. #146
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyrioi View Post
    Modern Italians plot there because it is a coincidence. IA/BA Italy and Balkans have nothing in common except that they came into contact. North/Central Italians have shifted more East since the Bronze Age / Iron Age and among IA/BA Italy there are quite some outliers. Italians do not have any more continuity with Iron Age / Bronze Age Italy than let's say a population like Albanians or Greeks with Iron Age / Bronze Age Balkans. Let's not even talk about Iberia who have shifted east too except for Basques. Sardinians and Basques are the least shifted it seems.

    Also Proto-Italics represent a totally different population that came from Bell Beakers / Corded Ware while the Balkans including Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians were Yamnaya folks that came directly from the Steppes + Balkan Neolithic and this is what the Southern Arc paper argues for too and even some linguists, they have different R1b markers compared to Italics and J2b2 is not an Italic marker. It's presence there is the result of Illyrians crossing the Adriatic. Italic tribes came also into contact with Illyrian tribes in the Northern Balkans.

    you are speaking ..........far more extra rubbish than is usual for you.

    all people/tribes in the adriatic sea on both sides of the land , have been mixing together since the bronze age ............

  22. #147
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,013

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    The ignoramus was a sock of a previously banned user.

    Balkanites can be modeled with similar "Southern" Ancestry to Southern Italian/Greeks which is early Aegean Bronze Age or Minoan. The "Northern" ancestry was modeled as Slovenian_IA which is similar to modern Northern Italians. When combined it created a cline of people that overlap with Tuscans and Sicilians/South Italians. Later on in history, Slavic and Avar migrations pulled them "North" and "East".

    Some of it is coincidence, but some of it are probably from the same sources, namely the "Southern" ancestry, at least in the case of Southern Italians. Btw, Minoans for example are indeed on a south-west axis from the south of Italy. At least every respectable PCA shows that; unlike (G)arbage 25.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 14-11-22 at 16:16.

  23. #148
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,699


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The ignoramus was a sock of a previously banned user.

    Balkanites can be modeled with similar "Southern" Ancestry to Southern Italian/Greeks which is early Aegean Bronze Age or Minoan. The "Northern" ancestry was modeled as Slovenian_IA which is similar to modern Northern Italians. When combined it created a cline of people that overlap with Tuscans and Sicilians/South Italians. Later on in history, Slavic and Avar migrations pulled them "North" and "East".

    Some of it is coincidence, but some of it are probably from the same sources, namely the "Southern" ancestry, at least in the case of Southern Italians. Btw, Minoans for example are indeed on a south-east axis from the south of Italy. At least every respectable PCA shows that; unlike (G)arbage 25.
    Perhaps I was too kind in only banning him for two months. Given his constant attempts to evade ban perhaps he should just be banned permanently.

  24. #149
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    1,876


    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Naue II sword finds have been from North -Italy
    https://www.bronze-age-craft.com/Naue_II.htm
    As early as 1450 BCE in northern Italy came an early type of a sword now known as the Naue II.
    I read on multiple accounts that the earliest Naue II-like models are from Northern Italy and the Carpathian Basin. They appear nearly simultaneously and its hard to determine who got it first. As you can read in the link provided, the exact dates are sometimes disputed.

    In any case, the big distribution of the swords started with the three main groups:
    - Proto-Villanovan
    - Middle Danubian Urnfield
    - Eastern Urnfield, especially Gva

    That's when it really kicked off with a refined mass production of the sword type.

    And its remarkable that all these groups were not just part of Urnfield, but also had a similar pottery (burnished, channelled ware), weaponry, warrior ethic etc. So while they might have been different ethnicities, patrilineages and autosomal profiles, speaking different languages, they being very clearly interconnected within the Urnfield sphere and more to each other than to other UF groups, with some exceptions (like Gva was particularly close to Kyjatice and Lusatians).

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456

Similar Threads

  1. Genetic origins of modern Southern Italians?
    By Carnimirie in forum DNA Testing & General Genetics
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 16-02-22, 12:06
  2. Hungary_BA and Catacomb to model Modern Italians
    By Jovialis in forum Bronze Age
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 28-12-21, 13:57
  3. Remedello an EEF ancestor of modern Italians?
    By Fire Haired14 in forum Neolithic & Chalcolithic
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-04-19, 15:00
  4. Meteorites Were the Origin of All Things Iron Predating the Iron Age
    By Jovialis in forum Archeology & Prehistory
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-12-17, 11:44
  5. Iron Age Bulgarian sample closely related to modern Sardinians
    By Knovas in forum Iron Age & Antiquity
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 10-01-15, 09:21

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •