Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

They are not closer to southern Italians and I have already mentioned why. It divides you time and space, you have not been formed as an ethnic group yet.
quote: "most European farmers
are genetically closer to Central and Northwestern (NW) Anatolian farmers than to Pre-Pottery
Neolithic (PPN) farmers of the Southern Levant or the Zagros region of Western Iran, who
were genetically well differentiated. "
You have more in common with other Western Europeans plus a lot of Semitic blood, so you are quite far from us both in time and place of formation.
You have a mixture that accidentally puts you closer to a Balkan population that has obviously undergone a genetic change over time and there is no way
today the same people to coincide with you or the ancestors of that time. In other words, the Balkans are at a crossroads, the locals have also undergone changes like the whole of Europe, but the locals have obviously not disappeared. Their influence has spread far and wide in all directions.
You speak a language from the IE group today only thanks to the cultural influence of my ancestors.
You want to have something in common, and I know I have, that's the difference between us. I am a direct descendant of the local cultural, historical, linguistic, genetic, regardless of the assimilated new ones, because here we have continuity at every point, including parallels with the oldest Balkan signs which show parallels with the later linear a and b and with Glagolitic and Old Bulgarian runes.

Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.
 
You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839Italian_Marche
10.06689624French_Corsica
10.48634827Italian_Campania
10.82355302Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114Italian_Lazio
11.62009036Italian_Romagna
12.30486489Italian_Sicily
12.77579352Italian_Calabria
13.08537351Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489Italian_Apulia
13.72006195Greek_Athens
14.07487478Greek_Central
14.51890836Greek_Foca
14.57305047Italian_Emilia
14.58877651Albanian
14.69527815Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214Italian_Liguria
15.27454091Greek_Icaria
15.35805977Italian_Jews
15.46250950Greek_Izmir
15.83988005Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716Greek_Thrace
16.62914911Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480Greek_Crete
17.23798712Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926Morocco_Jews
17.90415315Greek_Kos
18.09109726Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323Italian_Veneto
19.23244134Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882Macedonian_South
19.97022784Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354Swiss_Italian
21.22313832Macedonian_East
21.84876427Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493Italian_Trentino
22.76021529Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928Sardinian
23.22266996Bulgarian_East
23.27446025Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471Turk_Trakya
24.14725450Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795Portuguese
25.50004510Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030Bulgarian_West
25.89377338Pomak_Greece
25.94147259Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921Moldovan_South
26.07655844Romanian
26.40204538Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976Turk_Northwest
27.46114710Montenegrin
27.51541386Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823Turk_Southwest
28.24661927Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658Turk_Central_West
28.79363992Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862Turk_Central_East
30.88389710Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935Turk_South
31.02476430Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017Serb
31.23947503Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011Palestinian
32.51912975Turk_Southeast
32.57728657Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009Moldovan_Central
33.36607259Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131Bavarian_German
34.10900174Turk_East
34.15463219French_Northeast
34.19288669Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082French_Southwest

 
Guess what genius, I always get Balkan, and Greek on DNA test, that is because of not only geneflow from there, but because your ancestors were similar to me. The Semitic canard has been shown to be marginal if not non-existent in some cases. Of course if you actually read papers on the subject you would know that. So you can come up with all the excuses you want to prove that you did not become augmented by Slavs in the middle ages. The fact of the matter is the Balkans had Northern Italian-like people who mixed with Aegean_IA. The same thing happened in Italy, that is why you ancestors plot close to me, and not to you.
That was not Slavs but assimilated by us Balts, Ugro Finns and Turks from Northern Europe. The name of our states formations is clear why is that. They came with Asparuh where free Moesians mixed with more northern people before to strike back and return to the old lands to the south of Danube. We know well there is Moesia/ Mizia at Asia Minor too, so everything fits well with my knowledge. You can be assimilated Balkan if you like, I am a Balkan Balkan, the real heir of the local traditions, culture, language and their memory.
 
You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839Italian_Marche
10.06689624French_Corsica
10.48634827Italian_Campania
10.82355302Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114Italian_Lazio
11.62009036Italian_Romagna
12.30486489Italian_Sicily
12.77579352Italian_Calabria
13.08537351Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489Italian_Apulia
13.72006195Greek_Athens
14.07487478Greek_Central
14.51890836Greek_Foca
14.57305047Italian_Emilia
14.58877651Albanian
14.69527815Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214Italian_Liguria
15.27454091Greek_Icaria
15.35805977Italian_Jews
15.46250950Greek_Izmir
15.83988005Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716Greek_Thrace
16.62914911Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480Greek_Crete
17.23798712Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926Morocco_Jews
17.90415315Greek_Kos
18.09109726Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323Italian_Veneto
19.23244134Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882Macedonian_South
19.97022784Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354Swiss_Italian
21.22313832Macedonian_East
21.84876427Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493Italian_Trentino
22.76021529Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928Sardinian
23.22266996Bulgarian_East
23.27446025Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471Turk_Trakya
24.14725450Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795Portuguese
25.50004510Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030Bulgarian_West
25.89377338Pomak_Greece
25.94147259Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921Moldovan_South
26.07655844Romanian
26.40204538Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976Turk_Northwest
27.46114710Montenegrin
27.51541386Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823Turk_Southwest
28.24661927Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658Turk_Central_West
28.79363992Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862Turk_Central_East
30.88389710Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935Turk_South
31.02476430Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017Serb
31.23947503Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011Palestinian
32.51912975Turk_Southeast
32.57728657Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009Moldovan_Central
33.36607259Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131Bavarian_German
34.10900174Turk_East
34.15463219French_Northeast
34.19288669Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082French_Southwest

Distance to:Jovialis
11.53736972Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

 
You have almost nothing to do with these people:

Distance to:Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839Italian_Marche
10.06689624French_Corsica
10.48634827Italian_Campania
10.82355302Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114Italian_Lazio
11.62009036Italian_Romagna
12.30486489Italian_Sicily
12.77579352Italian_Calabria
13.08537351Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489Italian_Apulia
13.72006195Greek_Athens
14.07487478Greek_Central
14.51890836Greek_Foca
14.57305047Italian_Emilia
14.58877651Albanian
14.69527815Moldovan_Jewish
15.00197987Greek_Lemnos
15.14945214Italian_Liguria
15.27454091Greek_Icaria
15.35805977Italian_Jews
15.46250950Greek_Izmir
15.83988005Greek_Peloponnese
15.89330991Greek_Fournoi
16.28460930Sephardic_Jews
16.31570716Greek_Thrace
16.62914911Greek_Thessaly
16.97911658Greek_Thessaloniki
17.08565480Greek_Crete
17.23798712Italian_Lombardy
17.56960728Albanian_Kosovo
17.58261926Morocco_Jews
17.90415315Greek_Kos
18.09109726Greek_Rhodes
18.75633760Italian_Piedmont
18.75888323Italian_Veneto
19.23244134Bulgarian_Thrace
19.34208882Macedonian_South
19.97022784Macedonian_Vardar
20.43432896Greek_Macedonia
20.47465751Turk_Makedonya
21.06948030Italian_Friuli_VG
21.19744354Swiss_Italian
21.22313832Macedonian_East
21.84876427Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
22.09046401Macedonian_Polog
22.33944493Italian_Trentino
22.76021529Turk_Cyprus
22.95812928Sardinian
23.22266996Bulgarian_East
23.27446025Moldovan_Gagauz
23.41369471Turk_Trakya
24.14725450Greek_Cypriot
24.20697833Spanish_Canarias
24.61627510Bulgarian_Central
24.95553646Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
24.96455287Spanish_Baleares
25.03997604Turk_Deliorman
25.07955741Italian_Aosta_Valley
25.37242795Portuguese
25.50004510Pomak_Bulgaria
25.62808030Bulgarian_West
25.89377338Pomak_Greece
25.94147259Spanish_Castilla-Leon
26.03606921Moldovan_South
26.07655844Romanian
26.40204538Spanish_Valencia
26.44984121Greek_Cappadocia
26.85663605Turk_West_BlackSea
27.17547976Turk_Northwest
27.46114710Montenegrin
27.51541386Spanish_Andalusia
27.53951162Spanish_Catalonia
28.06417823Turk_Southwest
28.24661927Spanish_Aragon
28.27168902Spanish_Galicia
28.32023658Turk_Central_West
28.79363992Spanish_Asturias
29.24099861Nusayri_Turkey
29.31651582Spanish_Cantabria
30.34026862Turk_Central_East
30.88389710Spanish_La_Rioja
30.95594935Turk_South
31.02476430Turk_Central_Black_Sea
31.21045017Serb
31.23947503Lebanese_Christian
31.40061146Lebanese_Muslim
32.07274856Palestinian_Christian
32.24265653Jordanian_Christian
32.46694011Palestinian
32.51912975Turk_Southeast
32.57728657Syrian_SW_Christian
33.18760009Moldovan_Central
33.36607259Jordanian_Muslim
33.60565131Bavarian_German
34.10900174Turk_East
34.15463219French_Northeast
34.19288669Syrian_Muslim
34.51146186Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
34.78966082French_Southwest
We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.
 
Distance to:Jovialis
11.53736972Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41751-aDNA-(Dodecad-K12b)/page2?p=632266#post632266
and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.

Distance to:PIV
4.77881785Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR310:Veeramah_2018
6.45128669Scythian:scy305:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
8.01291458MAS001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
9.12929899I3596:Olalde_2018
9.38264888Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
9.42110397ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
9.49773131Szolad37:Amorim_2018
9.50791249Altenerding-Klettham_480-519AD_Female:AED513:Veeramah_2018
9.96866089Szolad1:Amorim_2018
10.35228477Bulgaria_EBA:I2165:Mathieson_2018
10.55006161Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
10.80719205Scythian:scy301:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
11.10251773NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
11.83661692I3592:Olalde_2018
11.88024411Szolad20:Amorim_2018
 
We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

RtpOPHV.png


I get these percentages for a reason, it is not a fantasy. I am not the one that claims I am genetically similar to your ancestors, it is simply a biological reality, and I am acknowledging that.

R1+ Aegean_IA

JL1lDkc.png


Results in the same as this:

68hqRhy.png
 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41751-aDNA-(Dodecad-K12b)/page2?p=632266#post632266
and that’s me. The first one is a woman with deformed skull, they were aristocratic brides closer to Romanians and Bulgarians and Bulgaria EBA is closer to me than IA to you. What exactly you prove here?
According to my true ancestry I have and a very good portion Minoan too.

BUL_IA is not an outlier (I have told others that before the Danubian paper), in fact several Serbian late antiquity samples plot south of it.
Southern Thracians were probably more southern shifted given the circumstances.

As for EBA samples they are more northern shifted because they are related with spread of the Steppe ancestry during the Early Bronze Age therefore they are unadmixed, later they become into what are the Thracians. The Iron Age and Late Antiquity samples represent what Thracians of Bulgaria actually were like.
 
Last edited:
And I get sample R1 as my top match
via balkans


 
Distance to:Jovialis
11.53736972Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018

Distance to:S
11.65080684Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
 
When did I say there was a Latin_IA to Aegean_IA cline?!

I said it was R1 to Aegean_IA cline, which is consistent with using the Balkan_IA model as a proxy.

Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.
 
Just to be clear, of course there was Latin and Etruscan ancestry pulling this cline to the north west too.

R1 does not seem to have the WHG percentage that they get, so I think that is why they are further to the east, due to Steppe being more pronounced.


so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???
 
We lived to see the day when the Italians also to claim our culture and heritage. You write nonsense. As the Balkans have changed since then, so have you. Historically and culturally you have nothing to do with the Balkans if we exclude the regular mixtures from all over Europe during Rome, many of the legions were Thracians, at least three of them. The rest are your fantasies.

I have my own culture and heritage, so I don't need to claim yours. Let me scale this back a bit, of course you're linked to the native Iron Age Balkanites more directly, as well as the rest of the modern native Balkanites, they are a part of your history. However, it seems to me that the Iron Age Balkans, and Iron Age Italy, particularly the Adriatic side had genetic similarities. Further, it seems that Italy retained more of that specific genetic profile. Of course Italians have been augmented too, since the Iron Age. But I think it is clear, that there was a North Eastern European enrichment in the Balkan peninsula during the Middle Ages. The arrival of these people who mixed with the people prior was the ethnogenesis of the modern Balkans. Frankly, I don't see why some people are furious at this.
 
so do you think that MTA, who states sample R1 a female has a father who was O2a2 from Estonia ( baltic sea lands ) is rubbish ???

Yeah, there's nothing in the supplement that says so. They still have the VEN samples from the Etruscan paper as "Samites", when we all know for a fact that they are from the Middle Ages.
 
All of the Albanians who think I am trying to deny them of their ancestors should take a look at the chart I posted, modern Albanians are not that far off from the Balkans_IA. Even if it is 20-30% North Eastern European ancestry in the mix, I don't think that detracts from the idea that they are very much still related to these Iron Age people. Relatively speaking, that is not that much dilution. Lazaridis stated that there was continuity with the ancient Greeks, and modern Greeks, despite just about the same dilution. Nevertheless, some of the most vocal opponents of the Olalde et al. 2021 model comes from them. I would like to know why.
 
All of the Albanians who think I am trying to deny them of their ancestors should take a look at the chart I posted, modern Albanians are not that far off from the Balkans_IA. Even if it is 20-30% North Eastern European ancestry in the mix, I don't think that detracts from the idea that they are very much still related to these Iron Age people. Relatively speaking, that is not that much dilution. Lazaridis stated that there was continuity with the ancient Greeks, and modern Greeks, despite just about the same dilution. Nevertheless, some of the most vocal opponents of the Olalde et al. 2021 model comes from them. I would like to know why.

Distance to:Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
9.93399839Italian_Marche
10.06689624French_Corsica
10.48634827Italian_Campania
10.82355302Italian_Abruzzo
11.46389114Italian_Lazio
11.62009036Italian_Romagna
12.30486489Italian_Sicily
12.77579352Italian_Calabria
13.08537351Italian_Tuscany
13.42223901Ashkenazi_Jews
13.47702489Italian_Apulia
13.72006195Greek_Athens
14.07487478Greek_Central
14.51890836Greek_Foca
14.57305047Italian_Emilia
14.58877651Albanian
 
Distance to:Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
3.50880321C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
3.55522151Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
3.74988000Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
4.09436198Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
4.73285326Szolad43:Amorim_2018
4.75513407C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
5.13872552Collegno23:Amorim_2018
5.14213963Szolad28:Amorim_2018
5.21295502Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
5.43897049Collegno36:Amorim_2018
5.48600036I3593:Olalde_2018
5.55054051Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
5.55906467Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
5.56696506Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
5.80672024Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
6.35463610Szolad31:Amorim_2018
6.35757029La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
6.40659036Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
6.54488350MOK13:Zegarac_2021
6.64578062MOK31:Zegarac_2021
6.84447222CSN009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.86396387ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.98428951Collegno49:Amorim_2018
6.99671351I7040:Olalde_2018
7.35485554Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019


68hqRhy.png




If the model of Solvenian_IA + Aegean_IA can create a cline of people that plot over Tuscans to south Italian, I think a R1 (Croatian_BA-like, which is similar and aligned to Slovenian_IA) + Aegean_IA can produce a similar population in Italy. Which is perhaps why we already have Iron Age samples that fall upon this cline, in Italy.

9aJyCVE.png


Maciamo's "Italian_Greeks_(n=2)", which is a combination of R437 and R850 is a very good proxy for Aegean_IA, especially from the Greeks found in Campania, who plot between them.

R1 + Aegean_IA for Italy works both historically, and modeling:

JL1lDkc.png
 
Who is opposing Olade et al? As far as I have seen, most Albanians are happy with that paper.
 
BUL_IA is not an outlier (I have told others that before the Danubian paper), in fact several Serbian late antiquity samples plot south of it.
Southern Thracians were probably more southern shifted given the circumstances.
As for EBA samples they are more northern shifted because they are related with spread of the Steppe ancestry during the Early Bronze Age therefore they are unadmixed, later they become into what are the Thracians. The Iron Age and Late Antiquity samples represent what Thracians of Bulgaria actually were like.
They are northern shifted but they are still the same people as you explained already why is that.
Some were south shifted, others northerly, just as they are today, depending on who they border on and mix with. My mother line, which is present ( D. Nesheva's research) both in the proto-Bulgarians and in the 7 mt samples from bronze(depicted as thracians), is from the Danube today, ie northern Bulgaria. How plot today on the PCА north to south italy, or north-south germany, what is the range?
So your remark who are the real Thracians was not accepted. The samples from the Thracians and the region in general from all epochs are few against the background of what is being done in northwestern Europe and against the background of what is de facto the historical and cultural significance of the Balkans at least from the Neolithic as well as for the IndoE question. The strange lack of interest of researchers, such as samples from Troy and northwestern Anatolia in general, a settlement of Thracians from ancient times, is impressive.
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 37501 times.

Back
Top