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Thread: Razib Khan: The Origins of Ashkenazi Jews

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    Razib Khan: The Origins of Ashkenazi Jews

    Razib 🥥 Khan (@razibkhan) / Twitter

    Ashkenazi Jewish genetics: a match made in the Mediterranean - by Razib Khan - Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning (substack.com)

    I am very happy to see that Razib Khan posted the image from the study I had mentioned on Anthrogenica for the origin of Ashkenazi Jews.

    There I was herranged by Daviski and several other people for saying this was the accurate trajectory of Ashkenazi Jews.

    Well, I guess I am not the only one that thinks this was the case. I believe I was even accused of sophistry by the moderators, and banned!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Razib ������ Khan (@razibkhan) / Twitter

    Ashkenazi Jewish genetics: a match made in the Mediterranean - by Razib Khan - Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning (substack.com)

    I am very happy to see that Razib Khan posted the image from the study I had mentioned on Anthrogenica for the origin of Ashkenazi Jews.

    There I was herranged by Daviski and several other people for saying this was the accurate trajectory of Ashkenazi Jews.

    Well, I guess I am not the only one that thinks this was the case. I believe I was even accused of sophistry by the moderators, and banned!

    They had also accused me of t-rolling, which is absolutely ridiculous.

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    What on earth??? This has been the majority academic view for years! They found this novel and revolutionary??? What, did it give Davidski the shivers to think the Ashkenazim have that much Slavic? I'd think he'd be more upset by the fact that more than a few Poles have some Ashkenazi admixture.

    Khan has a video out where he talks to Joshua Lipson about all of this. I commented on it and he responded. My point was that the only evidence against this scenario is that IBD analyses only pick up the contribution from Slavs, putting it, if my memory serves, at 10-15%.

    I suggested that perhaps the IBD from the Southern European women doesn't show up because perhaps the modern Italians they used as a reference aren't a good representation for the women of the time period of the admixture. Go fifty miles in Italy and the genetics change, and then there are the changes in time, especially if the admixture is in the Early Empire or even slightly earlier, and not 750 AD as he postulates.


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    Interesting
    One thing for sure
    We gone theough extreme bottlneck
    I am 1/ 4 aschenazi ( not full) and i have 13,000 matches
    In family finder
    It is so extreme that i think it
    Has connection to the black death+ ibd sharing by practicing endogomy


    P.s
    The slavic 10-15% is more pronounced in eastern asckenazi
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Razib ������ Khan (@razibkhan) / Twitter

    Ashkenazi Jewish genetics: a match made in the Mediterranean - by Razib Khan - Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning (substack.com)

    I am very happy to see that Razib Khan posted the image from the study I had mentioned on Anthrogenica for the origin of Ashkenazi Jews.

    There I was herranged by Daviski and several other people for saying this was the accurate trajectory of Ashkenazi Jews.

    Well, I guess I am not the only one that thinks this was the case. I believe I was even accused of sophistry by the moderators, and banned!

    Ah, here it is; I was Fourilegge:

    Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture? - Page 1003 (anthrogenica.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting
    One thing for sure
    We gone theough extreme bottlneck
    I am 1/ 4 aschenazi ( not full) and i have 13,000 matches
    In family finder
    It is so extreme that i think it
    Has connection to the black death+ ibd sharing by practicing endogomy
    P.s
    The slavic 10-15% is more pronounced in eastern asckenazi
    You have said numerous times that you're 3/4 Ashkenazi and 1/4 Balkan.

    Now you found out differently?

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    The first paper I referred to was Lazaridis et al 2017, which along with the AJ paper, he responded was this

    Oh look it is Riverman, who also supports the denial of the two papers.
    :


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You have said numerous times that you're 3/4 Ashkenazi and 1/4 Balkan.

    Now you found out differently?


    1/ 4 aschenazi + 1/4 bulgarian sefhardi+ 1/4 syrian jew ( here is my y haplogroup which is mizrahi )+ 1/4 bulgarian non jew ( from her i got my european mtdna)

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    Ah, so that's indeed what upset them: they don't want to believe that the Ashkenazim have even as much as 15% Slavic. Sorry to say it, but I've never seen a paper which postulates less than 10-15%, and hasn't there been a paper since Fuorilegge which concludes basically the same thing?

    Hate to say it, but it's such a typical response of an unenlightened and insecure and threatened man: those men of foreign, hated population X DID NOT have sex with our women. Our women would NEVER have done such a thing!

    Well, they did it bro, and the IBD conclusively proves it.

    I'm reminded of those almost comic, if the consequences weren't so tragic, cartoons of the Nazi Era in Germany, and really, even of the late 19th century and early 20th century Anti-Semitism of the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon world where hideous Jews with huge noses are tearing the clothes off fair young "Nordic" women. Those Nordic women didn't have to be forced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    1/ 4 aschenazi + 1/4 bulgarian sefhardi+ 1/4 syrian jew ( here is my y haplogroup which is mizrahi )+ 1/4 bulgarian non jew ( from her i got my european mtdna)
    Ah, I see...3/4 Jewish, but not 3/4 Ashkenazi; now I get it.

    Interesting...my husband has a meeting with a Syrian Jewish lawyer this afternoon. He was quizzing me to see what I know about his ethnic group. I'm interested to hear the play by play later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah, so that's indeed what upset them: they don't want to believe that the Ashkenazim have even as much as 15% Slavic. Sorry to say it, but I've never seen a paper which postulates less than 10-15%, and hasn't there been a paper since Fuorilegge which concludes basically the same thing?

    Hate to say it, but it's such a typical response of an unenlightened and insecure and threatened man: those men of foreign, hated population X DID NOT have sex with our women. Our women would NEVER have done such a thing!

    Well, they did it bro, and the IBD conclusively proves it.


    I'm reminded of those almost comic, if the consequences weren't so tragic, cartoons of the Nazi Era in Germany, and really, even of the late 19th century and early 20th century Anti-Semitism of the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon world where hideous Jews with huge noses are tearing the clothes off fair young "Nordic" women. Those Nordic women didn't have to be forced.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah, I see...3/4 Jewish, but not 3/4 Ashkenazi; now I get it.

    Interesting...my husband has a meeting with a Syrian Jewish lawyer this afternoon. He was quizzing me to see what I know about his ethnic group. I'm interested to hear the play by play later.

    Yes
    There are syrian jews in usa
    From aleppo and damascus
    They are rival aleppo are richer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Razib ������ Khan (@razibkhan) / Twitter

    Ashkenazi Jewish genetics: a match made in the Mediterranean - by Razib Khan - Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning (substack.com)

    I am very happy to see that Razib Khan posted the image from the study I had mentioned on Anthrogenica for the origin of Ashkenazi Jews.

    There I was herranged by Daviski and several other people for saying this was the accurate trajectory of Ashkenazi Jews.

    Well, I guess I am not the only one that thinks this was the case. I believe I was even accused of sophistry by the moderators, and banned!

    I have said it years ago that they could be 'half n half' Western European in 2019 I suppose. But I was not very informed about it being of Northern Italian.

    The model seems more than reasonable. Especially when someone claimed all old Mainland Southern Italians were probably Etruscan-like and was bothered by the idea of Mediterranean European ancestry of Jews being mostly of Northern Italian/Iberian-like. Considering Jews got most of Southern European ancestry in ancient Italy it's very ironic.

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    Wow, now Greeks aren't Mediterranean.

    I learn something new every day here. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wow, now Greeks aren't Mediterranean.

    I learn something new every day here. :)
    You are probably referring to me.

    I said that if Southern Italians were Etruscan-like (as the person assumed not MY idea) it would increase the probability of Jews having their European ancestry from West Mediterranean source. So it is ironic if he thinks all Southern Italians were Etruscan-like and Jews did not got their European ancestry from a West Med source. I am not ... sure if I am clear.

    I edited it I forgot "Jews".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You are probably referring to me.

    I said that if Southern Italians were Etruscan-like (as the person assumed not MY idea) it would increase the probability of Jews having their European ancestry from West Mediterranean source. So it is ironic if he thinks all Southern Italians were Etruscan-like and Jews did not got their European ancestry from a West Med source. I am not ... sure if I am clear.

    I edited it I forgot "Jews".
    I'm sorry, Ihype, but now I'm even more confused. :)

    So someone said all Southern Italians were Etruscan like (when in history?).

    After that I'm lost. Why would that increase the probability of Jews having their European ancestry from a West Mediterranean rather than a Central European Mediterranean source?

    The only reason academics aren't looking at the Greeks is because I think the mtdna seems more central/west Mediterranean, but maybe they should.

    Bear in mind that when this admixture took place, as Pax Augusta has pointed out correctly on another thread, the Spaniards would have been Basque like, so I don't know if the mtDna would be as good a match, but whatever.

    I also don't get, btw, why it would be ironic for an Italian who doesn't like the idea of having Levantine ancestry to find out that Jews have Italian ancestry. Someone who is racist might only be concerned with his own ancestry, and feel that giving his ancestry to others would "improve" them somehow. Now, real racists of the Nazi variety were against admixture of any kind. (They didn't know they themselves were the product of the admixture of very different groups, i.e. Anatolian farmers and CHG on the one hand and WHG/EHG on the other, of course.) People like the British in places like Australia and New Zealand, and the Spanish/Portuguese in Latin America sort of encouraged white men to breed with the natives to "whiten" them up I guess.

    Now I feel like I need a shower. Let's not discuss the above paragraph and get back to my question, ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sorry, Ihype, but now I'm even more confused. :)

    So someone said all Southern Italians were Etruscan like (when in history?).

    After that I'm lost. Why would that increase the probability of Jews having their European ancestry from a West Mediterranean rather than a Central European Mediterranean source?

    The only reason academics aren't looking at the Greeks is because I think the mtdna seems more central/west Mediterranean, but maybe they should.

    Bear in mind that when this admixture took place, as Pax Augusta has pointed out correctly on another thread, the Spaniards would have been Basque like, so I don't know if the mtDna would be as good a match, but whatever.

    I also don't get, btw, why it would be ironic for an Italian who doesn't like the idea of having Levantine ancestry to find out that Jews have Italian ancestry. Someone who is racist might only be concerned with his own ancestry, and feel that giving his ancestry to others would "improve" them somehow. Now, real racists of the Nazi variety were against admixture of any kind. (They didn't know they themselves were the product of the admixture of very different groups, i.e. Anatolian farmers and CHG on the one hand and WHG/EHG on the other, of course.) People like the British in places like Australia and New Zealand, and the Spanish/Portuguese in Latin America sort of encouraged white men to breed with the natives to "whiten" them up I guess.

    Now I feel like I need a shower. Let's not discuss the above paragraph and get back to my question, ok.
    OK it's my fault, never mind I was not really talking about an Italian, I was talking about one Jewish person who does not like the idea of European ancestry in Ashakanazi Jews being mostly West Med. (North Italian and Iberian?) Never mind.

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    What is the prevalent exogamous marriage custom in the Jewish religion. Do they accept just exogamous males, exogamous females or both?

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    ^^If the Jewish person is Orthodox and wants to be married by an Orthodox Rabbi, then the gentile has to be converted by an Orthodox Rabbi. A Conservative or Reform Rabbi won't do, just as it won't do if you want a free "Right of Return" to Israel, given the stranglehold ultra-Orthodox political parties have on the Knesset.

    Of course, these are American permutations (Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism) of the Jewish faith (maybe Anglo world as well, like Australia perhaps?). They don't apply, to my knowledge, to Europe, nor, I would think, to Israel. So far as I know, for Sephardim, Italkim, Iraqi and Iranian Jews, there's one kind of Jewish. You follow it or you get out of it. I'm speaking in terms of religion, not culture.

    There are some fringe minority groups too.

    King John probably knows more about it.

    I do know that I had a very good friend in university who married a gentile who didn't undergo an Orthodox conversion, and the family sat shiva for him. In other words, they held a mourning ceremony in their home, mirrors covered, clothes ripped and everything, because they considered him dead to them. It was pretty horrifying.

    One has to consider too that in the Classical Era, after sometime early in the 300s C.E. intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles was forbidden by the state, and the penalties were extreme. You couldn't get around it by conversion because Jews were forbidden, on pain of death, from proselytizing. They were also prohibited from converting their Gentile slaves. European states enforced those edicts once Rome fell. So the only way it could be done was if the Jewish person converted to Christianity and then married a Christian. The gene flow was thus much more often from the Jewish community into the Gentile one, rather than the other way around. Of course, rapes are another matter, and there is indeed some small amount of East European ydna and non-eastern R1b in the Ashkenazim. Fueled by vodka as many of the pogroms were, maybe the men were incapable, or as has happened in other places and other times, women desperate enough to want to rid themselves of a product of rape, will find a way.

    I think the Slavic autosomal input is probably also, as the papers state, from Slavic women. When the Jews first went to Poland and Lithuania, parts of those areas were still pagan, so the Church wouldn't have been doing any forbidding. Some small part of it may indeed have been the result of rape. I don't know.

    That's one of the problems I have with the 780 C.E. date for the admixture. It would have been much easier in an earlier time period. However, there are some interesting documents in the archives of the Bishop of Luni where the Pope sends him a letter saying he has gotten reports that the Bishop was lax in the matter of a Jewish landlord in his area who was still converting his Gentile slaves. I totally understand it. It was Italy then as now. Maybe the Bishop knew him, liked him; the personal is always more important than the legalisms of the state. There was also an interesting document about a Jewish girl who had converted to Catholicism, and to welcome her into the fold, the Bishop sent her a bolt of silk cloth for a wedding dress.

    As you can see, in Italy, at least, if a Jewish person did the converting then that Jewish person, male or female, could marry a Gentile. That continued throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. It wasn't "racial" in that sense, as it was in Germany and even in Eastern Europe. Until the Spanish brought it with them to Southern Italy there also wasn't, to the best of my recollection, an organized Inquisition in Italy poking into whether or not somebody who had a Jewish grandmother who converted still seemed to have a disdain for pork or all that nonsense, not until Mussolini, who in an attempt to curry favor with Hitler, had the "Racial Laws" passed. Just more proof fascism, which unfortunately was invented by an Italian, was not "racist" in its original form. The Jews were, however, at various times expelled from different Italian cities, as they were famously expelled from England, for example, and France. It wasn't just Spain. It happened in my own area, in the towns of Pontremoli and Bagnone, in both cases at the instigation of the local merchants, who didn't like the competition. So typical; often rooted in jealousy or resentment.

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    It seems to me that modern Jewish near eastern populations retained their Bronze-Age/IA ancestry more than non-Jewish modern Near Eastern populations. The non-Jewish modern Near Eastern people in the Levant seem to be more impacted by the rise of SSA from the legacy of the Arab slave trade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    It seems to me that modern Jewish near eastern populations retained their Bronze-Age/IA ancestry more than non-Jewish modern Near Eastern populations. The non-Jewish modern Near Eastern people in the Levant seem to be more impacted by the rise of SSA from the legacy of the Arab slave trade.
    I think that's right, with the exception of the Lebanese. As they were Christians they didn't admix with Muslims more recently arrived from further south, i.e. tribal groups from the Saudi peninsula, and probably didn't have SSA female slaves.

    It would be interesting to see if the same holds true for Palestinian Christians. Maybe it's my imagination, but they also look slightly different to me than Palestinian Muslims like those in the Gaza strip, for example.

    There were more than a few studies early on which showed that Ashkenazi Jews were a pretty good proxy for European farmers. That makes sense given all their Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and their watered down Levant Neolithic.

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    Great flow chart posted by Jovialis ---> Roughly when do the Berber & Ancient North African Jewish (ANAJ) streams enter the Sephardic stream? The diagram makes this appear like a relatively recent event.

    Further, the diagram suggests that the Ashkenazi have negligible ANAJ ancestry. Have there been any studies distinguishing ANAJ ancestry from Ancient Near East Judaic ancestry? Have Ashkenazi been shown to carry no Berber ancestry?

    Would it be scientifically unsupported to postulate that Berber & Ancient North African Jewish ancestry entered a common Mediterranean Jewish stream first, and then Greek Jews, Italian Jews, and Ashkenazim later separated from this primary stream?

    Put differently, might not the Ashkenazim partially descend from Sephardim?

    Sephardic males + Italian women = Italian Jews
    Sephardic males + Greek women = Greek Jews

    Italian Jews + Greek Jews move north, enter bottleneck, then admix with Slavic women = Ashkenazim

    Have genetic studies ruled out this scenario?

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    In the above post, I conflate Sephardic with N. African Mizrahi Jews. The terminology gets confusing. I did not mean to suggest that Ashkenazi descend from Spanish Jews in particular.

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    ^^I think it might be a good idea, if you haven't subscribed to Razib's substack, that you read the most recent papers on Jewish ethnogenesis.

    Of course the Ashkenazim descend from ancient Near Eastern Jews.

    For another example, you should be aware that when the Sephardim were exiled from Spain they scattered to various places, among which was North Africa. Many, for example, went to Morocco admixing with Jews already there. (However, each North African community is slightly different, with their own history). Some went to Syria, admixing with the people there, some to Amsterdam, some to Greece, some to Anatolia.

    If you're interested, look up each group on Wiki for a starting point.

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