The origins of domestic horses

what about the legendary centaurs?
didn't they invade from the north?

Peake, who she refers to, made that association explicitly.

Referencing him, she mentions how this western expansion of "southern Russian" steppemen at the ending of the third millenium bc / beginning of the second millenium BC (perfectly matches the horse breed expansion) was responsible for the "destruction" of the Tripolye culture (or pushing it west).

She then mentions that something of the Tripolye culture must have been picked up by them since after this pottery like that of Tripolye appears in Thessally, Troy, and Caicus...

I wonder if this end of Tripolye can be responsible for E-V13 introduction into IE groups, either by pushing some west into carpathians, or integrating some specialists.

0KfpX6X.png
 
So buttom line davidski was right or wrong in his predictions ?
 
This is the region that DOM2 comes from. Sintashta is peripheral to this region at the most eastern.

This falls within the late "Catacomb culture" region

For Asia the situation is clear according to this paper. Horses and chariots were spread at the same time from Sintashta culture:

Of note, the DOM2 genetic profile was ubiquitous among horses buried in Sintashta kurgans together with the earliest spoke-wheeled chariots around 2000–1800 BC7,9,23,24 (Extended Data Fig. 6). A typical DOM2 profile was also found in Central Anatolia (AC9016_Tur_m1900), concurrent with two-wheeled vehicle iconography from about 1900 BC25,26.
...
Therefore, a combination of chariots and equestrianism is likely to have spread the DOM2 diaspora in a range of social contexts from urban states to dispersed decentralized societies28.

But MAYBE you are right for the time period 2200-2000BC when there wasn't any chariots and horseback riding was the only use for horses. There we need horse ancient DNA to prove an origin from late Catacomb culture. Still you have to account for the spread of chariots into Europe which is definitely from Sintastha(Indo-Iranians):

The globalization stage started later, when DOM2 horses dispersed outside their core region, first reaching Anatolia, the lower Danube, Bohemia and Central Asia by approximately 2200 to 2000 BC, then Western Europe and Mongolia soon afterwards, ultimately replacing all local populations by around 1500 to 1000 BC. This process first involved horseback riding, as spoke-wheeled chariots represent later technological innovations, emerging around 2000 to 1800 BC in the Trans-Ural Sintashta culture7. The weaponry, warriors and fortified settlements associated with this culture may have arisen in response to increased aridity and competition for critical grazing lands, intensifying territoriality and hierarchy37. This may have provided the basis for the conquests over the subsequent centuries that resulted in an almost complete human and horse genetic turnover in Central Asian steppes11,21. The expansion to the Carpathian basin38, and possibly Anatolia and the Levant, involved a different scenario in which specialized horse trainers and chariot builders spread with the horse trade and riding.
...
However, while there is overwhelming lexical evidence for horse domestication, horse-drawn chariots and derived mythologies in the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family, the linguistic indications of horse-keeping practices at the deeper Proto-Indo-European level are in fact ambiguous42
 
For Asia the situation is clear according to this paper. Horses and chariots were spread at the same time from Sintashta culture:



But MAYBE you are right for the time period 2200-2000BC when there wasn't any chariots and horseback riding was the only use for horses. There we need horse ancient DNA to prove an origin from late Catacomb culture. Still you have to account for the spread of chariots into Europe which is definitely from Sintastha(Indo-Iranians):


Yes, for asia there seems to be no doubt that sintashta is the vector of horse spread.

Interestingly, Albanian only has isoglosses with Indo-Iranian branch in words related to Horse-breeding

EiJX3jRWAAIk9bE
 
scholars too much focus upon shitashta. As I mentioned in the post above, the culture in sintashta zone had started since mesolithic. However, we have only sintashta aDNA. Sintasha is arsenic bronze culture. Kuzmina clearly stated that andronovo expansion is closely related with tin bronze. So I opened the thread:https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...lained-without-mentioning-Seima-Turbino/page3

Seima turbino is tin bronze culture. The ST culture below spread whole Eurasia. Definitely it is related with Mycenaean and the celts.
It is a shame that we have only one yDNA Q in ST culture now:

Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

seima-turbino-phenomenon-parpola.jpg



Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:

214-edb5d7ce43.jpg


And china:
15-190012ff1a.jpg


However, we can meet sintashta culture in China. It is a puzzle of relationship between seima and sintashta:
"soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis."


 
^ I cannot edit the post above. I hereby add one more puzzle that tons of PIE reached in China broze:
 
Yes, for asia there seems to be no doubt that sintashta is the vector of horse spread.
Interestingly, Albanian only has isoglosses with Indo-Iranian branch in words related to Horse-breeding
EiJX3jRWAAIk9bE

This of course suggests that the ancestor of the Albanian language was in contact with Sintashta culture, to have developed these terms with Indo-Iranian in common.
 
This of course suggests that the ancestor of the Albanian language was in contact with Sintashta culture, to have developed these terms with Indo-Iranian in common.

I don't understand. Is there any evidence that sintashta culture reached on Albania. As far as I am concerned, milk-products, horse-keeping/breeding was a just normal culture at steppe mid-bronze. Moreover, I don't think any archaeological evidence to connect between south asia and sintashta. I don't understand how sintashta moved forward and backward under the situation to be surrounded by ST.
 
I don't understand. Is there any evidence that sintashta culture reached on Albania. As far as I am concerned, milk-products, horse-keeping/breeding was a just normal culture at steppe mid-bronze. Moreover, I don't think any archaeological evidence to connect between south asia and sintashta. I don't understand how sintashta moved forward and backward under the situation to be surrounded by ST.

This is not suggesting sintashta reached Albania, but that the long ago ancestor of Albanian was in contact somehow, either directly of by network with, Sintashta, to have these terms in common.


These terms are not shared with other IE languages, probably were formed at a pre-balkan stage of Albanian
 
This is not suggesting sintashta reached Albania, but that the long ago ancestor of Albanian was in contact somehow, either directly of by network with, Sintashta, to have these terms in common.

So, what kind culture Albania had around 2,000bc?
 
So, what kind culture Albania had around 2,000bc?

Again, not Albania, maybe the pre-proto-Albanian language speakers were in contact with the catacomb culture, or at its periphery or something. They had not yet descended into the balkans at this point possibly.
 
Peake, who she refers to, made that association explicitly.

Referencing him, she mentions how this western expansion of "southern Russian" steppemen at the ending of the third millenium bc / beginning of the second millenium BC (perfectly matches the horse breed expansion) was responsible for the "destruction" of the Tripolye culture (or pushing it west).

She then mentions that something of the Tripolye culture must have been picked up by them since after this pottery like that of Tripolye appears in Thessally, Troy, and Caicus...

I wonder if this end of Tripolye can be responsible for E-V13 introduction into IE groups, either by pushing some west into carpathians, or integrating some specialists.

0KfpX6X.png

The latest scholarship puts the end of the last phase of Cucuteni-Tripolliye in 3000 B.C.E. The expansion of these horses, and presumably the men riding them was in 2000 B.C.E.

I should think we've learned that really ancient re-tellings of myths are not the best source for predictions about genetics.

I have always leaned toward the idea that the Greek speakers might have had their source in Catacomb Culture and were Z-2103. As I said above, we'll have to wait and see.

For our members who are always interested in pigmentation, the people of the Catacomb Culture were predicted to be darker than any modern Europeans.

"Evidence of Catacomb influence has been discovered far outside of the Pontic steppe. Its burial chambers, metal types and figurines are very similar to those appearing in Italy and the eastern Mediterranean, while the hammer-head pin, a characteristic ornament of the Catacomb culture, has been found in Central Europe and Italy. Based on these similarities, migrations or cultural diffusion from the Catacomb culture to these areas have been suggested.[1] Similarities between the Catacomb culture and Mycenaean Greece are particularly striking. These include types of socketed spear-heads, types of cheekpieces for horses, and the custom of making masks for the dead.[13]"



 
I doubt even they were more advanced.

The Etruscans were steppe admixed, but they adopted the language and the cultural achievements of the culture they found in Italy. No culture across the Alps was their equal in iron metallurgy. Razib Khan goes so far, in his substack document, as to say that the Etruscans, from whom the Latins adopted so much, were the last great flowering of the culture of "Old Europe".

By more advanced, I meant "more advanced" in terms of horse technology and related warfare. Again, I think the research of Robert Drews is worth a read. Although Drews discusses only Mycenaean Greece in detail, he maintains that similar "elite takeovers" occurred in Northern Italy, Scandinavia, and the Pannonian Plain during the same era, mid 2nd millennium. I do not have a copy of the book on hand, so I can't check to see what he said about Northern Italy. All that I can recall is that parts of Northern Italy were targeted for capture because of copper mines.

But I mention Drews on this thread because he extensively critiques David Anthony's chronology of horse mastery and chariot warfare in the opening chapters of his 2017 book "Militarism and the Indo-Europeanizing of Europe." This new study supports Drews' position.
 
Again, not Albania, maybe the pre-proto-Albanian language speakers were in contact with the catacomb culture, or at its periphery or something. They had not yet descended into the balkans at this point possibly.
Can you tell me whether they had snake culture or concept? I always think that the snake is a core concept of Indo aryan. Snake is connected to sunhead, thunderbolt and fire cult.
 
"Modern domestic horses ultimately replaced almost all other local populations as they expanded rapidly across Eurasia from about 2000 BC"

Yamnaya steppe herders utilized two-wheeled carts and four-wheeled wagons, which were oxen-drawn. They also practised horse riding but DOM2 horses did not accompany their migration to Europe. Later technological innovations such as spoke-wheeled chariots enabled the dispersal of DOM2 horses out of their native range around 2,000 BC. Yamnaya steppe herders were not horse-riding conquerors or raiders coming to Europe from the Russian steppe as they were romanticized by Anthony. The agricultural crisis during the European late Neolithic was the golden opportunity for a westward expansion of Yamnaya steppe herders. The reduction in yields in Neolithic cereal-based agriculture due to worsening climatic conditions triggered a rapid population decline in northwestern Europe and Yamnaya steppe herders introduced pastoralism peacefully to the region, which was concurrent with a decline in broadleaf forests and an increase in pasture/natural grassland vegetation.

Western Eurasia steppes into Central and Eastern Europe during the third millennium BC, associated with the Yamnaya culture8,9,11,12,21. This expansion contributed at least two thirds of steppe-related ancestry to populations of the Corded Ware complex (CWC) around 2900 to 2300 BC8. The role of horses in this expansion remained unclear, as oxen could have pulled Yamnaya heavy, solid-wheeled wagons7,22. The genetic profile of horses from CWC contexts, however, almost completely lacked the ancestry maximized in DOM2 and Yamnaya horses (TURG and Repin) (Figs. 1e, f, 2a, b) and showed no direct connection with the WE group, including both C-PONT and TURG, in OrientAGraph modelling (Fig. 3b, Extended Data Fig. 5).
 
Yamnaya steppe herders utilized two-wheeled carts and four-wheeled wagons, which were oxen-drawn. They also practised horse riding but DOM2 horses did not accompany their migration to Europe. Later technological innovations such as spoke-wheeled chariots enabled the dispersal of DOM2 horses out of their native range around 2,000 BC. Yamnaya steppe herders were not horse-riding conquerors or raiders coming to Europe from the Russian steppe as they were romanticized by Anthony. The agricultural crisis during the European late Neolithic was the golden opportunity for a westward expansion of Yamnaya steppe herders. The reduction in yields in Neolithic cereal-based agriculture due to worsening climatic conditions triggered a rapid population decline in northwestern Europe and Yamnaya steppe herders introduced pastoralism peacefully to the region, which was concurrent with a decline in broadleaf forests and an increase in pasture/natural grassland vegetation.

I remember that I quoted Kuzmina article when russian member Dov participated in this forum. As she mentioned, they would be horse meat eaters rather than horse riders. At that time, there is a high possibility for Botai people to do horse riding practice, considering their drinking horse milk, horse bone wear, proportion of female/male horse bones and horse dung's usage to barn. However, I think not they did, b/c seima turbino did not in botai zone:
www.ra.iaran.ru/wp-content/uploads/kovtun-1-2014.jpg

As far as I know, 110 petroglyphs of chariot were found just in Karzakstan at andronovo age, but none of horse riding. Thus I think even andronovo people was not horse-rider.

izo-3.jpg
 
Although there may have been scattered instances of horse riding dating back as far as 2500 BCE, horse riding did not become effective or militarily significant until the first millennium. This is all to do with bits and stirrups. Chariotry precedes militarized horse riding.
 
Can you tell me whether they had snake culture or concept? I always think that the snake is a core concept of Indo aryan. Snake is connected to sunhead, thunderbolt and fire cult.

Hope Johane, and his vast library of sources has something on this.

My intuition connects Snake cults to Albanian culture of old due to the stuff I have read (not scientific publications, and not sources at hands).
 

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