The origins of domestic horses

[Angela]

I really have to find out which members are represented by Vladis, ntindeo and I() are...not my fans, clearly. :)

They never post, just lurk, PM each other, and vote for absurd posts.

[holderlin]

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp that humans were producing and consuming dairy products like cheese and yoghurt for thousands of years without possessing the lactase persistence alleles. That's because those processes remove lactose from the milk. People without those alleles didn't and don't normally DRINK milk because without those enzyme producing alleles they would experience unpleasant digestive symptoms and lost nutrients, plus even possible more serious health consequences.


The presence of casein on the teeth means they consumed dairy products. It does NOT mean they drank milk. To draw the conclusion they MIGHT have drunk milk you'd have to test to see if they had the lactase persistence alleles or not.


That's called good science.


Strange that you find my question so offensive but the authors were quite willing to discuss the issue and concluded they should have said there might be a possibility they drank the milk but only testing for the alleles would settle whether it was a possibility or not.


If you're going to make broad, sloppy claims in every post of every thread to which you turn your attention, and get snide when someone points out you're making hasty and overbroad generalizations and not seeing the full picture, then you can expect a snide comment in return.


I gave up turning the other cheek long ago.


Now, I'm done explaining to you what should have been obvious.


If you continue with your boorish behavior, I won't just respond in kind, you'll start accumulating infractions. Are we clear?

I didn't find you offensive, just wrong. But please explain how your comments weren't offensive to the authors.


LOL "infractions". If you give me infractions or ban me for this you're just being a bully. Those poor authors having to deal with you politely on Twitter. I can only imagine what they were thinking.

[holderlin]

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp thathumans were producing and consuming dairy products like cheese and yoghurt forthousands of years without possessing the lactase persistence alleles. That'sbecause those processes remove lactose from the milk. People without thosealleles didn't and don't normally DRINK milk because without those enzymeproducing alleles they would experience unpleasant digestive symptoms and lostnutrients, plus even possible more serious health consequences.

The presence of casein on the teeth means theyconsumed dairy products. It does NOT mean they drank milk. To draw theconclusion they MIGHT have drunk milk you'd have to test to see if they had thelactase persistence alleles or not.

That's called good science.

Strange that you find my question so offensive butthe authors were quite willing to discuss the issue and concluded they shouldhave said there might be a possibility they drank the milk but only testing forthe alleles would settle whether it was a possibility or not.

If you're going to make broad, sloppy claims inevery post of every thread to which you turn your attention, and get snide whensomeone points out you're making hasty and overbroad generalizations and notseeing the full picture, then you can expect a snide comment in return.

I gave up turning the other cheek long ago.

Now, I'm done explaining to you what should havebeen obvious.

If you continue with your boorish behavior, Iwon't just respond in kind, you'll start accumulating infractions. Are weclear?

First of all, Yamnaya had the rs4988235 allele at a frequency of over 25% compared to under 10% in bronze age Europe among samples from the 2015 paper below.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14507



The 2020 paper below however didn't find any rs4988235 in Yamnaya associated individuals tested. They didn't test any European samples as old as Bronze Age Steppe, but found rs4988235 first in Corded Ware and not in appreciable frequencies until the Late Bronze Age in Europe.

Also it's a myth that all adults without lactase persistence have trouble consuming milk. For many it's not a big deal. It would largely depend on their gut biome. They might get gassy or have mild gastric affects which are nothing compared to starving. The important nutrients are the calcium and the protein.

So it's completely reasonable to assume that a fair amount of Yamnaya individuals could consume milk without a problem.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982220311878

[holderlin]

The paper in question had "dairying" in the title and "milk proteins"/"Dairying" used throughout the paper. They only explicitly say "milk drinking" or consumption 3 times: once citing references who theorized this and in two other instances where it's not being emphasized over the main point of what species of animal the milk had been coming from. And they DID in fact use the language "could" in one of the main conclusive paragraphs below. They were in no way going on about Yamnayans chugging jugs of milk giving them super muscle gains that they used to bash the skulls of Farmers, so I really don't know what set you off.



The 2 main types of proteins found are curd or "cheese" proteins α-S1-casein and α-S2-casein, and whey proteins β-lactoglobulin and α-lactalbumin. Whey proteins are in very low levels in hard cheese, so they can be considered milk markers even if they're in something like curdled milk or a watery cheese.

It's noteworthy to mention that a fully developed dairying lexicon is contained in PIE: Milk, butter, curdled milk, and cheese, which is yet more evidence to stack.

Do you really think it likely that a culture practicing fully developed dairying won't be drinking ANY milk? What about curdled milk? Does that count? The children likely were and there's even more evidence for this in some juvenile samples from the Middle Volga that were anemic likely due to exclusive milk consumption over long periods of time leading to iron uptake issues. In fact LP is driven not only by selection but epigenetic stress in the form of continued lactose consumption into later ages. So to fully accelerate allele frequency increase you would need a population drinking milk into adulthood before they are all lactase persistent anyway. This is how it happens.

Does this not provide evidence that milk was being consumed on the bronze age steppe? I think most everyone would say yes. Except you.

Also, this is a horse domestication thread, so the important point for our purposes here would be that they were in-fact milking horses. The "triad" of horse domestication, tractions devices, and dairying were likely all related as they moved through the bronze age contributing to the development of mobile pastoralism. This is literally the authors concluding paragraph (below) condensed. They're less concerned with the difference between drinking milk vs cheese or butter.



As far as me posting sloppy comments. Is it any sloppier than you hurling belligerent vitriol at the authors of a paper just because you don't like the evidence they present? And at least a few people find my posts helpful which is enough for me on such a site.

[Angela]

The first study imputed the presence of the alleles. Perhaps that's one reason there's a discrepancy.

The authors didn't say or imply Yamnaya were guzzling milk; you did. "They" didn't tick me off; "you" did.

I only contacted them to clarify what they meant and what they might have seen in their data. It was a very pleasant exchange, unlike the kind I have with you; no stiff "polite" awkwardness at all, much less the snide remarks and aggressive tone which you always use to me.

I'm afraid you know very little of lactose intolerance. Any doctor nowadays could tell you that cheese and yoghurt have less lactose than milk itself. First thing a doctor will tell you now if you go in complaining of certain kinds of digestive issues is to cut out all dairy products. If you feel better, you can try to introduce some hard cheese once in a while, or natural yoghurt and see what happens, but never milk itself.

As for people who have dairy animals not drinking milk I've seen it all my life. My mother's people had farms, and made butter and cheese from their cows' milk, although they only had a few cows. My father's people were essentially just dairy farmers, since not a lot grows in the high mountain altitudes of the Apennines Mountains. I hated it there; more cows than people. Yet, until I came to this country I had never seen anyone over two or three years old actually drinking milk. I found the idea repugnant; still do to a certain extent. It's not something I would ever choose to drink, even if it agreed to me.

The reason I've made quite a study of lactose intolerance vs lactase persistence is because suddenly, around 35, I stopped being able to handle cheese, butter, ice cream, you name it. I only realized that after exhaustive and exhausting and expensive testing revealed nothing wrong, and the doctor finally told me to try cutting out dairy products. Nowadays they're more alert to the issue. It took six months of complete, religious abstinence to get my system back in order; only then could I start to indulge in a piece of pizza or a pat of butter on my toast once in a while. Ice cream, whipped cream etc. were still out of the question. The use of lactase pills does help somewhat so my diet isn't completely dairy free now but I still have to be conscious of what I'm eating.

The bizarre thing is that I have two copies of the "European" lactase persistence allele. For some reason they just seem to have "turned off" at the onset of mid-life.

So, I don't pretend that the scientists have this completely figured out. However, some things are clear. There's a big difference between drinking milk and eating some cheese. Making and consuming cheese and yoghurt, as the Neolithic farmers did from a very early period, doesn't mean you're going to be able to tolerate drinking milk, at least not if you do it for extended periods of time. The presence of this allele in European populations only got to present levels in the fifteen hundred years or so, meaning that selection has been ongoing but slow. This is not something that was a done deal at some point in the Bronze Age.

It's usually a mistake, imo, to judge all situations only from the narrow confines of one's own culture. Living in a few different ones gives you a much broader picture.

[EV13SON]

I'll leave this video here, apparently the first depictions of men on horseback were Babylonians...