The origins of domestic horses

[Angela]

Recent articles emphasize the importance of milk drinking and the westward expansion of the Yamnaya steppe herders.

I communicated with the authors on twitter and asked if they had any proof that they drank milk. They do not. They just said it was a possibility.

Didn't say it, but that's a crap response. You don't throw stuff out there when you have absolutely no proof for it, especially given they didn't carry the mutations which allow you to digest dairy. So, the fact is they were probably making cheese or yogurt like the Anatolian farmers, also carrying the ancestral allele, thousands of years before.

To quote Gertrude Stein, "there's no there there".

What people never paid very much attention to is the fact that we can tell by tracking the "European" lactase producing alleles is that the selection continued and in fact intensified in the last 2000 years, which no one really understands. Even samples from the first millennium B.C.E. in Central and Northern Europe have nowhere near the levels present in those areas today.

It's quite humbling, imo, that the two greatest selective sweeps we've seen, for lactase persistence and for lighter pigmentation, are not completely understood after years of conjecture.

 

[Angela]

Although there may have been scattered instances of horse riding dating back as far as 2500 BCE, horse riding did not become effective or militarily significant until the first millennium. This is all to do with bits and stirrups. Chariotry precedes militarized horse riding.

Anthony tried to find evidence for stirrups pretty early, but it was a pretty weak attempt, imo.

If they had been invented by Corded Ware type people I think they would have been so useful that we wouldn't have had to wait another almost 2,000 years to see them being used again.

 

[Silesian]

Recent articles emphasize the importance of milk drinking and the westward expansion of the Yamnaya steppe herders.

Research and data analysis on samples are just beginning. For example there has been great advance in how Italian R1b is connected to Yamnaya steppe R1b, some even going so far and connecting a common Indo-European language and culture. As noted Italians like Villabruna R1b and steppe R1b have a unique different ancestral heritage than the middle Eastern guys. Be patient soon we will find out the phenotype and genetic traits like dairy consumption and carbohydrate digestion.

 

[Ailchu]

Yamnaya steppe herders utilized two-wheeled carts and four-wheeled wagons, which were oxen-drawn. They also practised horse riding but DOM2 horses did not accompany their migration to Europe. Later technological innovations such as spoke-wheeled chariots enabled the dispersal of DOM2 horses out of their native range around 2,000 BC. Yamnaya steppe herders were not horse-riding conquerors or raiders coming to Europe from the Russian steppe as they were romanticized by Anthony. The agricultural crisis during the European late Neolithic was the golden opportunity for a westward expansion of Yamnaya steppe herders. The reduction in yields in Neolithic cereal-based agriculture due to worsening climatic conditions triggered a rapid population decline in northwestern Europe and Yamnaya steppe herders introduced pastoralism peacefully to the region, which was concurrent with a decline in broadleaf forests and an increase in pasture/natural grassland vegetation.

a peacefull migration would also be supported by archeology. there is no evidence for a large scale brutal conquest. instead we find that in some regions older farmer populations and new arrivals lived right next to each other for hundreds of years.

 

[johen]

a peacefull migration would also be supported by archeology. there is no evidence for a large scale brutal conquest. instead we find that in some regions older farmer populations and new arrivals lived right next to each other for hundreds of years.

Not always

"here is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-westernpoland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture."
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002

 

[holderlin]

I communicated with the authors on twitter and asked if they had any proof that they drank milk. They do not. They just said it was a possibility.

Didn't say it, but that's a crap response. You don't throw stuff out there when you have absolutely no proof for it, especially given they didn't carry the mutations which allow you to digest dairy. So, the fact is they were probably making cheese or yogurt like the Anatolian farmers, also carrying the ancestral allele, thousands of years before.

To quote Gertrude Stein, "there's no there there".

What people never paid very much attention to is the fact that we can tell by tracking the "European" lactase producing alleles is that the selection continued and in fact intensified in the last 2000 years, which no one really understands. Even samples from the first millennium B.C.E. in Central and Northern Europe have nowhere near the levels present in those areas today.

It's quite humbling, imo, that the two greatest selective sweeps we've seen, for lactase persistence and for lighter pigmentation, are not completely understood after years of conjecture.

Still getting worked up about this stuff huh?

If you're talking about the paper below, the evidence is milk proteins (casein) in the teeth.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03798-4.pdf

 

[holderlin]

Wow

So modern horses descend from the middle bronze age Eastern Pontic? Not exactly a huge surprise, but nice to see confirmation. We've long known of the earliest Chariot burials from this time and region, and horse domestication remains the primary reason IE languages spread across such a vast distance into South Asia.

This is also consistent with a previous paper which showed that among the samples they had (without bronze age steppe samples), the earliest domestic horses were in Anatolia around 2000BC, and that Scythian horses were most closely related to modern horses. Even after reading this, given all the other evidence, it seemed unlikely that Yamnaya->CWC were riding horses into Europe.

Looks like this process was beginning at least by Yamnaya for dairy consumption with a shift to selection for transportation over 1000 or so years.

I will admit at one time I thought it likely that Sredny Stog was riding horses, and I will still say that it's not unreasonable to presume that horse riding was being experimented with by 3500BC on the steppe give the coalescence of the DOM2 type by this time. So maybe I wasn't too far off after all.

 

[Angela]

Still getting worked up about this stuff huh?

If you're talking about the paper below, the evidence is milk proteins (casein) in the teeth.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03798-4.pdf

What I get "worked up" about with you is that you still seem to come on here at night when you're not compos mentis and so you don't understand what you're reading.

I COMMUNICATED WITH THEM BY TWEET AND THEY SAY THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY DRANK MILK OR NOT. ALL THEY KNOW IS THAT "DAIRY" CALCULUS IS ON THEIR TEETH. THEY SAID IT'S A POSSIBILITY THEY DRANK IT BUT THEY HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING.

Do you get it now?????

 

[holderlin]

What I get "worked up" about with you is that you still seem to come on here at night when you're not compos mentis and so you don't understand what you're reading.

I COMMUNICATED WITH THEM BY TWEET AND THEY SAY THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY DRANK MILK OR NOT. ALL THEY KNOW IS THAT "DAIRY" CALCULUS IS ON THEIR TEETH. THEY SAID IT'S A POSSIBILITY THEY DRANK IT BUT THEY HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING.

Do you get it now?????

You're the rudest person here without a doubt and I haven't been here in years, so when do I "come on at night". The past week?

I don't think you remember the things you write. What exactly constitutes "proof" for 5000 years old remains? Do you need to see a dead Yamnayan in-situ suckling a cow/horses tit?

You said it was "crap" "non-sense" then quoted Gertrude Stein of all people saying there's nothing there. Then you went on about lactase persistence, which apparently you still love to do.

There's casein in the teeth, along with a full protein profile, that allowed them to narrow down the species which included horse. This was in over 90% of individuals. At the very least, this strongly supports the notion that Yamnayans were milk drinkers. How does this constitute, nothing, crap, or nonsense?

 

[Angela]

You're the rudest person here without a doubt and I haven't been here in years, so when do I "come on at night". The past week?

I don't think you remember the things you write. What exactly constitutes "proof" for 5000 years old remains? Do you need to see a dead Yamnayan in-situ suckling a cow/horses tit?

You said it was "crap" "non-sense" then quoted Gertrude Stein of all people saying there's nothing there. Then you went on about lactase persistence, which apparently you still love to do.

There's casein in the teeth, along with a full protein profile, that allowed them to narrow down the species which included horse. This was in over 90% of individuals. At the very least, this strongly supports the notion that Yamnayans were milk drinkers. How does this constitute, nothing, crap, or nonsense?

I have a near photographic memory. I remember your late night rants quite well.

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp that humans were producing and consuming dairy products like cheese and yoghurt for thousands of years without possessing the lactase persistence alleles. That's because those processes remove lactose from the milk. People without those alleles didn't and don't normally DRINK milk because without those enzyme producing alleles they would experience unpleasant digestive symptoms and lost nutrients, plus even possible more serious health consequences.

The presence of casein on the teeth means they consumed dairy products. It does NOT mean they drank milk. To draw the conclusion they MIGHT have drunk milk you'd have to test to see if they had the lactase persistence alleles or not.

That's called good science.

Strange that you find my question so offensive but the authors were quite willing to discuss the issue and concluded they should have said there might be a possibility they drank the milk but only testing for the alleles would settle whether it was a possibility or not.

If you're going to make broad, sloppy claims in every post of every thread to which you turn your attention, and get snide when someone points out you're making hasty and overbroad generalizations and not seeing the full picture, then you can expect a snide comment in return.

I gave up turning the other cheek long ago.

Now, I'm done explaining to you what should have been obvious.

If you continue with your boorish behavior, I won't just respond in kind, you'll start accumulating infractions. Are we clear?

 

[Angela]

I really have to find out which members are represented by Vladis, ntindeo and I() are...not my fans, clearly.

They never post, just lurk, PM each other, and vote for absurd posts.

 

[holderlin]

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp that humans were producing and consuming dairy products like cheese and yoghurt for thousands of years without possessing the lactase persistence alleles. That's because those processes remove lactose from the milk. People without those alleles didn't and don't normally DRINK milk because without those enzyme producing alleles they would experience unpleasant digestive symptoms and lost nutrients, plus even possible more serious health consequences.


The presence of casein on the teeth means they consumed dairy products. It does NOT mean they drank milk. To draw the conclusion they MIGHT have drunk milk you'd have to test to see if they had the lactase persistence alleles or not.


That's called good science.


Strange that you find my question so offensive but the authors were quite willing to discuss the issue and concluded they should have said there might be a possibility they drank the milk but only testing for the alleles would settle whether it was a possibility or not.


If you're going to make broad, sloppy claims in every post of every thread to which you turn your attention, and get snide when someone points out you're making hasty and overbroad generalizations and not seeing the full picture, then you can expect a snide comment in return.


I gave up turning the other cheek long ago.


Now, I'm done explaining to you what should have been obvious.


If you continue with your boorish behavior, I won't just respond in kind, you'll start accumulating infractions. Are we clear?

I didn't find you offensive, just wrong. But please explain how your comments weren't offensive to the authors.


LOL "infractions". If you give me infractions or ban me for this you're just being a bully. Those poor authors having to deal with you politely on Twitter. I can only imagine what they were thinking.

 

[holderlin]

I don't know why you can't seem to grasp thathumans were producing and consuming dairy products like cheese and yoghurt forthousands of years without possessing the lactase persistence alleles. That'sbecause those processes remove lactose from the milk. People without thosealleles didn't and don't normally DRINK milk because without those enzymeproducing alleles they would experience unpleasant digestive symptoms and lostnutrients, plus even possible more serious health consequences.

The presence of casein on the teeth means theyconsumed dairy products. It does NOT mean they drank milk. To draw theconclusion they MIGHT have drunk milk you'd have to test to see if they had thelactase persistence alleles or not.

That's called good science.

Strange that you find my question so offensive butthe authors were quite willing to discuss the issue and concluded they shouldhave said there might be a possibility they drank the milk but only testing forthe alleles would settle whether it was a possibility or not.

If you're going to make broad, sloppy claims inevery post of every thread to which you turn your attention, and get snide whensomeone points out you're making hasty and overbroad generalizations and notseeing the full picture, then you can expect a snide comment in return.

I gave up turning the other cheek long ago.

Now, I'm done explaining to you what should havebeen obvious.

If you continue with your boorish behavior, Iwon't just respond in kind, you'll start accumulating infractions. Are weclear?

First of all, Yamnaya had the rs4988235 allele at a frequency of over 25% compared to under 10% in bronze age Europe among samples from the 2015 paper below.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14507

The 2020 paper below however didn't find any rs4988235 in Yamnaya associated individuals tested. They didn't test any European samples as old as Bronze Age Steppe, but found rs4988235 first in Corded Ware and not in appreciable frequencies until the Late Bronze Age in Europe.

Also it's a myth that all adults without lactase persistence have trouble consuming milk. For many it's not a big deal. It would largely depend on their gut biome. They might get gassy or have mild gastric affects which are nothing compared to starving. The important nutrients are the calcium and the protein.

So it's completely reasonable to assume that a fair amount of Yamnaya individuals could consume milk without a problem.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982220311878

 

[holderlin]

The paper in question had "dairying" in the title and "milk proteins"/"Dairying" used throughout the paper. They only explicitly say "milk drinking" or consumption 3 times: once citing references who theorized this and in two other instances where it's not being emphasized over the main point of what species of animal the milk had been coming from. And they DID in fact use the language "could" in one of the main conclusive paragraphs below. They were in no way going on about Yamnayans chugging jugs of milk giving them super muscle gains that they used to bash the skulls of Farmers, so I really don't know what set you off.

The 2 main types of proteins found are curd or "cheese" proteins α-S1-casein and α-S2-casein, and whey proteins β-lactoglobulin and α-lactalbumin. Whey proteins are in very low levels in hard cheese, so they can be considered milk markers even if they're in something like curdled milk or a watery cheese.

It's noteworthy to mention that a fully developed dairying lexicon is contained in PIE: Milk, butter, curdled milk, and cheese, which is yet more evidence to stack.

Do you really think it likely that a culture practicing fully developed dairying won't be drinking ANY milk? What about curdled milk? Does that count? The children likely were and there's even more evidence for this in some juvenile samples from the Middle Volga that were anemic likely due to exclusive milk consumption over long periods of time leading to iron uptake issues. In fact LP is driven not only by selection but epigenetic stress in the form of continued lactose consumption into later ages. So to fully accelerate allele frequency increase you would need a population drinking milk into adulthood before they are all lactase persistent anyway. This is how it happens.

Does this not provide evidence that milk was being consumed on the bronze age steppe? I think most everyone would say yes. Except you.

Also, this is a horse domestication thread, so the important point for our purposes here would be that they were in-fact milking horses. The "triad" of horse domestication, tractions devices, and dairying were likely all related as they moved through the bronze age contributing to the development of mobile pastoralism. This is literally the authors concluding paragraph (below) condensed. They're less concerned with the difference between drinking milk vs cheese or butter.

As far as me posting sloppy comments. Is it any sloppier than you hurling belligerent vitriol at the authors of a paper just because you don't like the evidence they present? And at least a few people find my posts helpful which is enough for me on such a site.

 

[Angela]

The first study imputed the presence of the alleles. Perhaps that's one reason there's a discrepancy.

The authors didn't say or imply Yamnaya were guzzling milk; you did. "They" didn't tick me off; "you" did.

I only contacted them to clarify what they meant and what they might have seen in their data. It was a very pleasant exchange, unlike the kind I have with you; no stiff "polite" awkwardness at all, much less the snide remarks and aggressive tone which you always use to me.

I'm afraid you know very little of lactose intolerance. Any doctor nowadays could tell you that cheese and yoghurt have less lactose than milk itself. First thing a doctor will tell you now if you go in complaining of certain kinds of digestive issues is to cut out all dairy products. If you feel better, you can try to introduce some hard cheese once in a while, or natural yoghurt and see what happens, but never milk itself.

As for people who have dairy animals not drinking milk I've seen it all my life. My mother's people had farms, and made butter and cheese from their cows' milk, although they only had a few cows. My father's people were essentially just dairy farmers, since not a lot grows in the high mountain altitudes of the Apennines Mountains. I hated it there; more cows than people. Yet, until I came to this country I had never seen anyone over two or three years old actually drinking milk. I found the idea repugnant; still do to a certain extent. It's not something I would ever choose to drink, even if it agreed to me.

The reason I've made quite a study of lactose intolerance vs lactase persistence is because suddenly, around 35, I stopped being able to handle cheese, butter, ice cream, you name it. I only realized that after exhaustive and exhausting and expensive testing revealed nothing wrong, and the doctor finally told me to try cutting out dairy products. Nowadays they're more alert to the issue. It took six months of complete, religious abstinence to get my system back in order; only then could I start to indulge in a piece of pizza or a pat of butter on my toast once in a while. Ice cream, whipped cream etc. were still out of the question. The use of lactase pills does help somewhat so my diet isn't completely dairy free now but I still have to be conscious of what I'm eating.

The bizarre thing is that I have two copies of the "European" lactase persistence allele. For some reason they just seem to have "turned off" at the onset of mid-life.

So, I don't pretend that the scientists have this completely figured out. However, some things are clear. There's a big difference between drinking milk and eating some cheese. Making and consuming cheese and yoghurt, as the Neolithic farmers did from a very early period, doesn't mean you're going to be able to tolerate drinking milk, at least not if you do it for extended periods of time. The presence of this allele in European populations only got to present levels in the fifteen hundred years or so, meaning that selection has been ongoing but slow. This is not something that was a done deal at some point in the Bronze Age.

It's usually a mistake, imo, to judge all situations only from the narrow confines of one's own culture. Living in a few different ones gives you a much broader picture.

 

[EV13SON]

I'll leave this video here, apparently the first depictions of men on horseback were Babylonians...