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Thread: The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Uneasy to say: the angle of the face on the pic doesn't help too much. Thanks nevertheless.
    I lack a reliable set of WSHG and Botai people to emit some thought about ties and differences.
    It would seem that ANE rich WSHG had very light 'east-asian'like input for the phenotypical (look) aspect.
    You remember this skull which seems to be similar to WSHG skull:

    Neolithic west siberia (Ob-irtysh river) skull:





    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Graphical-facial-reconstruction-of-a-man-from-the-Neolithic-cemetery-of-Zhelezinka-by_fig1_336560655

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    In this article "these-red-haired-chinese-mummies-come-from-all-over-eurasia-dna-reveals" on forbes (sorry I am not able to post links)
    I read:


    "Considering the presence of haplogroups H and K in the Xiaohe people and the geographical distribution of shared sequences, we conclude that the west Eurasian component observed in the Xiaohe people originated from western Europe, and maternal ancestry of the Xiaohe people might have close relationships with western Europeans," Li and colleagues note"


    See also "Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age" on Bmc Biology


    I am not able to understand how it can be made compatible with abovementioned paper which denies western genetic links...

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    Morever, I have seen several images of so called "Princess of Xiaohe".
    Old photos (several years ago) seems not to represent the same mummy of most recent photos (some dayes ago)...

    Several differences seem to be present in the nose, hair color, eye orbits, chin ...
    Unfortunately I am newbie and I cannot post link or images...

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    In this paper "Evidence that a West-East admixed populationlived in the Tarim Basin as early as the earlyBronze Age" (2010), you can read :

    Y chromosome haplogroup profiling and distributionFifteen individuals’ AMG amplicons were obtained fromthe 20 Xiaohe individuals (whose mtDNA was successfully amplified), among which seven individuals wereidentified as male and eight as female. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the seven males were all assignedto haplogroup R1a1a through screening the Y-SNPs atM89, M9, M45, M173 and M198 successively. Haplogroup R1a1a is widely distributed in Eurasia: it ismainly found in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, SouthAsia, Siberia, ancient Siberia, but rare in East Asia[22-24]"

    And:

    "Besides the East Eurasian lineage, two West EurasianmtDNA haplogroups H and K were found among theXiaohe people. H lineage is the most common mtDNAhaplogroup in West Eurasia [20], but haplogroup Hwith a 16260T was shared by only nine modern peoplein Genbank, including one Italian, one German, oneHungarian, one Portuguese, one Icelander and four English people. Haplogroup K, a western Eurasian-specifichaplogroup, is mainly distributed in Europe, centralAsia, and Iran [20,21]. However, haplogroup K with16134T, found in the Xiaohe people, has not beenfound in modern people to our knowledge.Among the Xiaohe people, three sequences with theunique HVRI motif 16189-16192-16311 formed a subcluster (Figure 2) and were not shared by modern people. They are identified as macrohaplogroup R throughsequencing the PCR amplicons at np10400 andnp12705 in the coding region. The np12308, np14766,np10031, np4917, np3970, and 9 bp deletion, whichare the diagnostic sites for the main subhaplogroups ofR, were further examined [15]. The results showedthat they are related neither to the West Eurasianhaplogroups UK, TJ, HV, R11 and R1, nor to the EastEurasian haplogroups B and F. So we designatedthem as haplogroup R* temporarily. Another sequencewith motif 16223-16304, shared by some people fromEast Asia, India, and Europe, was assigned tohaplogroup M*."

    and conclusions:

    "ConclusionsOur results demonstrated that the Xiaohe people wasan admixture from populations originating from boththe West and the East, implying that the Tarim Basinhad been occupied by an admixed population since theearly Bronze Age. Considering the unique genetic haplotypes and particular archaeological culture, theadmixed population might have had relationship withpopulations settled South Siberia during the BronzeAge. To our knowledge, this is the earliest genetic evidence of an admixed population settled in the TarimBasin"

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    Sorry, duplicate.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jormung View Post
    In this paper "Evidence that a West-East admixed populationlived in the Tarim Basin as early as the earlyBronze Age" (2010), you can read :

    Y chromosome haplogroup profiling and distributionFifteen individuals’ AMG amplicons were obtained fromthe 20 Xiaohe individuals (whose mtDNA was successfully amplified), among which seven individuals wereidentified as male and eight as female. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the seven males were all assignedto haplogroup R1a1a through screening the Y-SNPs atM89, M9, M45, M173 and M198 successively. Haplogroup R1a1a is widely distributed in Eurasia: it ismainly found in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, SouthAsia, Siberia, ancient Siberia, but rare in East Asia[22-24]".
    That is why
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is absolutely crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think it is simplistic to claim ANE is West Eurasian, since I found and find Sikorra et al persuasive in concluding that the "Ancient North Eurasians can be modelled as early West Eurasian with an approximately 22% contribution from early East Asians."

    That would explain the East Asian features found by Russian anthropologists in their skulls, which I also found persuasive.

    The Tarim Basin people have an additional 28% East Asian, which again makes sense looking at Chart J in the Supplement, which says they have skin lightening snps on OCA2, and carry the snps for EDAR. That hardly qualifies them for the label "West Eurasian".

    That all explains why, at least to my eyes, the mummy of the man definitely, and to some extent the mummy of the woman look so East Asian in terms of features.

    As to pigmentation, other than OCA2, looking at which snps on Page J were under selection for light hair, we have one snip*. So, at least as far as this group of samples are concerned, only one "might" have had lighter hair. That's if you believe one such snp in combination with some skin lightening effect on OCA2 could give this result.

    Anyway, the important take-away, moving from this eternal fascination with coloring, these people were not descendants of Indo-Europeans from the west, so they were not "Tocharians". The Tarim people are a relict population. The people at the Dzungaria site are another story, although I'm beginning to be persuaded that even they are not the Tocharians.

    * rs12821256
    No one asked me, but I'll chime in anyway. :)

    This is labelled the "Sleeping Beauty of Loulan". These could absolutely be the remains of an East Asian or American Indian woman to my eyes. The only difference is that the former don't have her more prominent nose.







    Gong Li







    Since the Algonquins carry mtDna X2 I thought it would be interesting to look at them.



    This Tarim mummy looks less East Asian to me, but it's still there.


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    I think this is a similar case to Ainu people who are segregated since Paleo age:


    Here some rather unmixed Ainu in modern days:






    (An Ainu warrior with an axe in traditional Ainu clothing)
    https://weirdnews.info/2020/05/24/what-race-are-the-ainu-people-of-japan/

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    That is why
    Uh?
    I can't understand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No one asked me, but I'll chime in anyway. :)

    This Tarim mummy looks less East Asian to me, but it's still there.
    IMHO, in old photos this mummy (the "princess of Xiaohe") showed red hair.

    By the way, did she dye her hair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think this is a similar case to Ainu people who are segregated since Paleo age:


    Here some rather unmixed Ainu in modern days:






    (An Ainu warrior with an axe in traditional Ainu clothing)
    https://weirdnews.info/2020/05/24/what-race-are-the-ainu-people-of-japan/
    I usually stick to older photos for any group, as they're likely to be less admixed

    They have a relationship to Native Americans, and this Ainu woman certainly shows it.



    Some of them look quite different, so there's definitely variation, and this variation wouldn't come from the Japanese.

    Curly hair and a bit lighter than that of the Japanese, especially given that older photos "darken" people:


    Variation in skin tone as well. Did the Japanese "lighten" them?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jormung View Post
    IMHO, in old photos this mummy (the "princess of Xiaohe") showed red hair.

    By the way, did she dye her hair?
    No need to be snide, and stop pretending to be Italian. Change your flag to reflect reality.

    Number one, hair oxidizes in death. The first color to show up in dark hair is red tones.

    Second, take a look at the picture I posted of the Ainu, another population related to Amerindians. If that qualifies as red hair for you, problem solved. I'd buy they had that hair color. Flaming red, a la the Celtic Fringe or Scandinavia? Not unless you have a lot of other de-pigmentation snps, imo.

    Questions all answered?

    Why can't some of you people just admit you were wrong? I mean, I know, Eurogenes' list is getting longer and longer, and my paper is still clean, but that's the way it goes; I'm bound to be wrong about something big eventually.

    You know what, believe what you want; you people do anyway.

    And no, I didn't predict that the Tarim Basin Mummies would be a mixed ANE/East Asian people, but I did say that ANE skulls looked East Asian or East Asian admixed to me, and so did the Tarim mummies, and I'll stick with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    which says they have skin lightening snps on OCA2, and carry the snps for EDAR. That hardly qualifies them for the label "West Eurasian".
    That's what I feared: Nordicists now have a strong argument for continuing to link the origin of Indo-European languages to the Nordic race. According to their (false) logic: "the studied mummies were not Nordic, so it is natural that they were not Indo-European".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No need to be snide, and stop pretending to be Italian. Change your flag to reflect reality.
    Mia cara Angela, sono italiano, non diciamo sciocchezze. Tu lo sei?
    Non sono in grado di mostrare foto, perche' non ho ancora raggiunto i 20 post.

    Mi sono limitato a fare un semplice battuta basata sul fatto che nelle vecchie foto i capelli della "principessa di Xiaohe" sono evidentemente rossi, mentre in quelle recenti No.
    Non e' strano?
    Last edited by jormung; 02-11-21 at 18:57.

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    ANE populations were genetically a mix of mostly West-Eurasian/Caucasoid with minor East-Eurasian/Mongoloid affinity who most likely originated in Europe, but expanded from eastern Siberia. Therefore, ANE populations can also be referred to as being broadly Caucasoid. So, it makes sense that these Tarim mummies were classified as Caucasoid by anthropologists, although they surely had some East Asian/Mongoloid tendency. Besides, a user from AG noted that those Tarim mummies with Northern European phenotype were from later periods that were probably not tested by this study. Anyway, the authors are not stringent in their usage of the term"local". They consider Afanasievo who were from Southern Siberia as not "local", but the later Tarim mummies they view as "local". It seems as if the researchers translate the fact that the Afanasievo were "genetically indistinguishable" from the Yamnaya culture, into not being "local". Ancient North Eurasians are described as a lineage "which is deeply related to Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Europe," meaning that they diverged from Paleolithic Europeans a long time ago. The ANE population has also been described as having been "basal to modern-day Europeans" but not especially related to East Asians and is suggested to have perhaps originated in Europe. In contrast, the authors suggest in a misleading way that ANE was an “ancient autochthonous Asian genetic group"; implying that ANE were of “Asian” East Asian genetic ancestry proper. Furthermore, they assert that the Tarim mummies “belong to an isolated gene pool whose Asian origins can be traced to the early Holocene epoch” and that their “SO-CALLED Western physical features are probably due to their connection to the Pleistocene ANE gene pool.” What they don't tell is that ANE component is described as a lineage "which is deeply related to Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Europe". ANE population isn't especially related to East Asians who likely originated in Europe.


    I'm afraid that this study will be misconstrued by some people who argue against the validity of physical anthropology. Now, these folks will have their gotcha moment. They’ll assert the Tarim mummies study has proven that "native Chinese" or "East Asians" can look "Caucasian" with blond hair, thus race is a social construct, and physical anthropology is white supremacy racist science. People either won't be aware or forget that ANE contributed to more modern Caucasian/European groups and that ANE population was not really Chinese or East Asian-like- genetically speaking. It will be ignored by some that ANE also did not contribute to East Asian populations either. Plus the local Tarim mummies are not particularly closely related to East Asians, too.

    The researchers also mentioned in that paper that Native Americans and indigenous Siberians retain the highest known proportions of ANE, about 40%. At the same time, they completely omit the fact, that Northern Europeans have 20-35% ANE ancestry, and Proto-Indo-Europeans had 50%. To me, it's obvious that these geneticists interpreted the data in a way to obfuscate any evidence that shows any links between Tarim EMBA peoples who were around ~85% ANE with Europe and Northern Europeans. After so many genetic papers that were politicized by the involved researchers, I'm not really surprised.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No need to be snide, and stop pretending to be Italian. Change your flag to reflect reality.

    Number one, hair oxidizes in death. The first color to show up in dark hair is red tones.

    Second, take a look at the picture I posted of the Ainu, another population related to Amerindians. If that qualifies as red hair for you, problem solved. I'd buy they had that hair color. Flaming red, a la the Celtic Fringe or Scandinavia? Not unless you have a lot of other de-pigmentation snps, imo.

    Questions all answered?
    NO!

    Number 1) hair of "princess" preserved their red color for 4000 years, and in the last one or two years thet changed color? And face features too? ....
    Number 2) I DO NOT want speak about Ainu or other people in this Thread concerning Tarim mummies.

    NUmber 3) we have two papers about genetis of tarim mummies which are INCOMPATBILE, Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    ANE populations were genetically a mix of mostly West-Eurasian/Caucasoid with minor East-Eurasian/Mongoloid affinity who most likely originated in Europe, but expanded from eastern Siberia. Therefore, ANE populations can also be referred to as being broadly Caucasoid. So, it makes sense that these Tarim mummies were classified as Caucasoid by anthropologists, although they surely had some East Asian/Mongoloid tendency. Besides, a user from AG noted that those Tarim mummies with Northern European phenotype were from later periods that were probably not tested by this study. Anyway, the authors are not stringent in their usage of the term"local". They consider Afanasievo who were from Southern Siberia as not "local", but the later Tarim mummies they view as "local". It seems as if the researchers translate the fact that the Afanasievo were "genetically indistinguishable" from the Yamnaya culture, into not being "local". Ancient North Eurasians are described as a lineage "which is deeply related to Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Europe," meaning that they diverged from Paleolithic Europeans a long time ago. The ANE population has also been described as having been "basal to modern-day Europeans" but not especially related to East Asians and is suggested to have perhaps originated in Europe. In contrast, the authors suggest in a misleading way that ANE was an “ancient autochthonous Asian genetic group"; implying that ANE were of “Asian” East Asian genetic ancestry proper. Furthermore, they assert that the Tarim mummies “belong to an isolated gene pool whose Asian origins can be traced to the early Holocene epoch” and that their “SO-CALLED Western physical features are probably due to their connection to the Pleistocene ANE gene pool.” What they don't tell is that ANE component is described as a lineage "which is deeply related to Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Europe". ANE population isn't especially related to East Asians who likely originated in Europe.


    I'm afraid that this study will be misconstrued by some people who argue against the validity of physical anthropology. Now, these folks will have their gotcha moment. They’ll assert the Tarim mummies study has proven that "native Chinese" or "East Asians" can look "Caucasian" with blond hair, thus race is a social construct, and physical anthropology is white supremacy racist science. People either won't be aware or forget that ANE contributed to more modern Caucasian/European groups and that ANE population was not really Chinese or East Asian-like- genetically speaking. It will be ignored by some that ANE also did not contribute to East Asian populations either. Plus the local Tarim mummies are not particularly closely related to East Asians, too.

    The researchers also mentioned in that paper that Native Americans and indigenous Siberians retain the highest known proportions of ANE, about 40%. At the same time, they completely omit the fact, that Northern Europeans have 20-35% ANE ancestry, and Proto-Indo-Europeans had 50%. To me, it's obvious that these geneticists interpreted the data in a way to obfuscate any evidence that shows any links between Tarim EMBA peoples who were around ~85% ANE with Europe and Northern Europeans. After so many genetic papers that were politicized by the involved researchers, I'm not really surprised.

    I fully agree with you.
    I think that at the basis of this politicization there is the Uighur question.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    On wikipedia, about Tarmi mummies you can read:

    "Chinese historian Ji Xianlin says China "supported and admired" research by foreign experts into the mummies. "However, within China a small group of ethnic separatists have taken advantage of this opportunity to stir up trouble and are acting like buffoons. Some of them have even styled themselves the descendants of these ancient 'white people' with the aim of dividing the motherland. But these perverse acts will not succeed."

    It is clear to me that genetics of tarim mummies could become a political problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just_a_Common_Guy View Post
    That's what I feared: Nordicists now have a strong argument for continuing to link the origin of Indo-European languages to the Nordic race. According to their (false) logic: "the studied mummies were not Nordic, so it is natural that they were not Indo-European".

    Nordicists get called out, and rightfully so. However, Chinese Nationalists, Indo-centrists create many problems for Western scientists that want to examine, test ancient DNA in their country in order to answer historical questions. Thus they are as bad as Nordicists, yet they are never under the same scrutiny as Nordicists are. Keep in mind, that China was hiding the Tarim mummies away from the world for a long time because they were shocked by their phenotype and possible foreign influence. The Tarim mummies posed a threat to the nationalistic and ‘autochthonist’ narrative of China. Plus, even after the Western scientists got access to these mummies it was difficult for them to examine them without Chinese authorities interfering. Anyway, what this Tarim mummies paper has proven is the fact that ANE-related/ANE-like people lived in certain areas of the Tarim Basin from ~2100 to ~1700 BC. Nevertheless, contrary to what the authors claim, their findings didn't refute anything about the Tocharian origin hypotheses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Nordicists get called out, and rightfully so. However, Chinese Nationalists, Indo-centrists create many problems for Western scientists that want to examine, test ancient DNA in their country in order to answer historical questions. Thus they are as bad as Nordicists, yet they are never under the same scrutiny as Nordicists are. Keep in mind, that China was hiding the Tarim mummies away from the world for a long time because they were shocked by their phenotype and possible foreign influence. The Tarim mummies posed a threat to the nationalistic and ‘autochthonist’ narrative of China. Plus, even after the Western scientists got access to these mummies it was difficult for them to examine them without Chinese authorities interfering. Anyway, what this Tarim mummies paper has proven is the fact that ANE-related/ANE-like people lived in certain areas of the Tarim Basin from ~2100 to ~1700 BC. Nevertheless, contrary to what the authors claim, their findings didn't refute anything about the Tocharian origin hypotheses.
    Again, I fully agree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jormung View Post
    On wikipedia, about Tarmi mummies you can read:

    "Chinese historian Ji Xianlin says China "supported and admired" research by foreign experts into the mummies. "However, within China a small group of ethnic separatists have taken advantage of this opportunity to stir up trouble and are acting like buffoons. Some of them have even styled themselves the descendants of these ancient 'white people' with the aim of dividing the motherland. But these perverse acts will not succeed."

    It is clear to me that genetics of tarim mummies could become a political problem.
    Of course since not the Han Chinese but the disliked and oppressed Uyghurs resembled the Tarim mummies. That was a blow for the pride of the Chinese who are all about not losing face.












    Besides, A study from 2019 revealed a change in burial practices across the Tarim Basin from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age, with the newer burials being more closely aligned to those of the wider Andronovo culture.






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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Another thread politicized... thanks to real "expert"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Another thread politicized... thanks to real "expert"

    Elobarate, and refute my criticism of this paper!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    hap IJ = 'common west-European'
    Dzudzuana = common west-European + basal eurasian
    EHG = ANE admixed with Dzudzuana
    CHG = Dzudzuana admixed with ANE
    steppe = EHG + CHG
    so steppe contains a lot of ANE

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Besides, A study from 2019 revealed a change in burial practices across the Tarim Basin from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age, with the newer burials being more closely aligned to those of the wider Andronovo culture.
    The Tarim basin was inhabited by Iranics coming from the west and south. You can see that in languages like Saka Khotanese. Uyghurs also carry a lot of BMAC ancestry so does the ancient Wusun people another hint that the Tarim basin was later inhabited by Iranics which do have steppe ancestry.

    Bildschirmfoto 2021-10-31 um 21.18.09.jpg

    Bildschirmfoto 2021-10-31 um 21.18.36.jpg

    Side note: I am not going to discuss the politics with you (real expert) but ANE isn't something particular North European. Indians carry much more ANE than Northern Europeans so does some indigenous Siberians.

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