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Thread: The genomic origins of the Bronze Age Tarim Basin mummies

  1. #151
    Elite member holderlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    I disagree, because those features are everything else then unique to ANE. They are very common among ancient Eurasian populations.

    For example broad cheekbones are in the genetic sense the wild type. Narrow faces evolved much later and are a feature that is linked to the expansion of cardial and linear pottery in Europe.
    Archaic human skulls appear longer on pictures, but his is not because of narrow cheek bone genetics, but of larger mandibles.
    Hooked nose bridge is the wild type that is also present in archaic humans like Neanderthals.
    The breadth of the nose of Tarim Mummies (Narrow nose) is not wild type, but it is also found in many populations from the west like Italy Mesolithic, Villabruna, Maglemose, Natufians, Cheddar Man, WHG.

    The only feature that is a unique in Europeans today, is the alleles for blonde hair, but this version of blonde is also present in the more western samples like Ukraine Mesolithic and Yamnaya.

    The problem is, it is nearly impossible to clarify if an allele is of this or that population, if it is the same. For that you would need an algorithm that can proof what other SNPs are standing near in the same gene region.

    Simplificated example:

    rs123TT is the hypothetical allele for slim nose.

    Ancient Population 1

    rs1235 AA
    rs3434 AA
    rs123 TT
    rs4456 AT
    rs9865 AT

    Ancient Population 2

    rs1235 TT
    rs3434 TT
    rs123 TT
    rs4456 TT
    rs9865 AT

    Living Population

    rs1235 TT
    rs3434 TT
    rs123 TT
    rs4456 TT
    rs9865 AT

    In this case it is more likely, that the allele is of Population 2 origin.
    I wasn't saying that these features were unique to ANE/Tarim, I was just saying that they're undoubtedly exhibited. The point of my post was to say that it might be futile to compare the skulls to modern populations with much precision i.e. do we even know that mongloid per se shows up before devils cave?

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    529p.jpgAn old photo (< 1999) of the "lady of Zagunluq".

    Attachment 13005

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    AG3 and at least one of the Tarim samples has no EBA Baikal. EBA Baikal definitely has mongloid features judging by the fact that they're appox. 80% East Siberian, half of which is devils cave. They'd be more mongloid than modern Kazakh populations. They are very similar to Baikal_EN.

    Devils cave is very similar to modern North West Chinese (Yumin).

    East Asian features today result from a mix of Devils Cave, ancestor of Ami/Atalyal, and a Siberian ancestor that split from Devil cave very recently. Devils cave is only 8000 years ago. The mixing of proto-ANE/Yana with the ancestors of devils cave happened 40k years ago. It can't really be described in terms of modern East Asian phenotypical features. This would be like equating a 40k year old common west Eurasian sample to a Modern Estonian with high WHG. These people are phenotypical relics with some samples showing more actual East Asian than AG3.

    That being said you can still draw some conclusions based on not only the fact that we have the mummified remains right in front of us but from the contribution to modern Europeans and recent ancestors of modern Europeans. Denying this would be like denying Devil's cave contribution to modern East Asians.

    Undeniable features include super-thin pronounced noses, pronounced chins, and broad faces/pronounced cheek bones.
    my guess is that Mongoloids spread 14000 years ago from Manchuria all over eastern Siberia, from Lake Bajkal in the west till Alaska in the East
    they were all part of the rapidly expanding tribe C2b-F1699 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F1699/
    this coincides with the spread of microliths made from wedge-shaped boat cores
    during Bajkal EN, haplogroup N arrived in the area, and during Bajkal EBA Q-L330
    of course the newcomers mixed with the Mongolid HG who were there long before

    notice UKY001 dated 13,9 ka

  4. #154
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    It seems some people know nothing about photography and over-exposure. No wonder so many people photo-shop their pictures; the majority of those looking at them can't tell.

    Off topic, but celebrities don't really look like the photos you see. Also, in terms of "anthropology" as applied to modern populations, don't assume people are really the "color" they appear in a photo. Just one example: one of the women at my salon is from Egypt; she said one of the things she loves about America is that she doesn't have to have all her pictures "whitened", and can just be herself. Indians and Pakistinis and the East Asians, especially the Japanese, are notorious for doing this, as well as the obvious use of skin foundation.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It seems some people know nothing about photography and over-exposure. No wonder so many people photo-shop their pictures; the majority of those looking at them can't tell.
    Uhm, are you referring to the photo of "lady of Zagunluq" I've posted?
    In that case, maybe it can be appropriate to make the following clarification.
    No photoshop. It is taken from the web: https://www.dandebat.dk/images/529p.jpg
    But it is identical to the photo appearing in the book "In search of immortals", H.Reid, 1999 (so the photo must be previous).
    IMG_20211104_224902_4.jpg
    (I enjoyed taking the photo of the page of the book taht I own)
    The reason I posted that photo is to show CroMagnon features in a female Tarim mummy.
    Apart from pigmentation, I would say that these are Americanoid ( in the sense of classical anthorpology) face features.
    I find that face structures in the following photo are very similar (the main feature is the euriprosopy, the size of nose in the mummy can not be considered for the reasons mentioned above):

    cromagnon_types.png
    a) Sitting bull
    b) Cromagnon man reconstruction
    c) Geronimo
    d) Lady of Zaganluq
    Last edited by jormung; 08-11-21 at 12:57.

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    And now some other "heresy", attempting to put all the pieces together..


    What we know:
    * blue or light eyes are selectively disadvantaged in regions where the landscape is covered with snow and ice for most of the year, due to the phenomenon of albedo which, without protection, can lead to blindness and light eyes have less amount of protective melanin (blue color is given by Tyndall effect).Even the Eskimos who have black eyes often wear protective glasses/goggles, since ancient times (IMHO very ingenious, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_goggles )
    * blue or light eyes developed in paleolithic europa and maybe in middle east, among a population with dark skin and adark hair (see Cheddar Man), in regions where lighting for most of the year is low, but the environment is not constantly covered with snow. Anyway, this feature can persist where no negative selection is present or it is even an advantage (maybe in cloudy and humid climates, where there is less lighting).
    * following David Reich, the blonde hair originated in a region probably in Siberia between lake Baykal and Balhas, possibily around 16000 AC; such area is tha ANE areal, I define it the "pole of blondism".
    * in the same area, i.e. ANE areal, a population mainly Cromagnon and partly north-east easian survived, let's' say, up to the Eneolithic. In the following, we will call their face features "Americanoid" features. No or a few of blondes before 16000 AC), blondes increasing after 16000 AC. No light eyes, but brown or dark eyes, because the snow dominated ambient.
    * following C.C.UhlenBeck, the proto-indoeuropean seems to show two different components one of Uralic type (I will call IndoUralic) and of (dene)caucasion; so we could interpret proto-indoeuropean as a Creole Language, likely originated in Siberia.



    What could have happened:
    * american indians shows "americanoid features", but AFAIK they shows very low frequencies of light hair (anyway, this can be disputed). So I infer that ANE migration beyond Beringia in America, happened before the development of the blond hair ( <16000 AC).
    *IF one only "pole of blondism" emerged in Siberia during the paleolithic (disputable), so we must suppose that after the expansion towards America, another expansion occurred toward West Europe and from there to north Africa (see problem of IberoMauresian culture, and blondism in Berbers and Guanches; is it linked with R1b-v88???), this migration should be after the origin blondism in siberia.
    * IF we accept the controversial abovementioned paper on earliest tarim mummy genetics (2021), we can state that earliest Tarim mummies were the depgmented version of such "americanoid" people.
    Because of in the same age, loanwords from a Kentum language to old-chinese are well documented (see above discussions), it is natural to suppose that such americanoid people (with blonde hair but dark eyes) is the the people that carried such kentum language, and it is obvious to think that this kentum language is so-called Tocharian or "Arsikantu" as they, the Arsi (as they called themselves), called their language. So in a first stage, the proto-indoeuropeans where blonde with dark eyes.
    * Together, or before, with tocharian-Arsi migration, other migrations occurred : anatholians and maybe guthians, and then a large part toward west, which became the ancestor of illyrians, celtic, italics,...; such branches mixed themeselves with different cultures they found on the way (Yamna, Corded ware...) and new anthropological features originated from this mix...
    * ... in the west, the light eyes were present since the paleolithic (accompanied by dark complexion). As we know, dark eyes were present, too, after the expansion of agriculture during the neolithic. Here a mix between blonde dark-eyed proto-indoeuropeans and dark-and-light-eyed europeans natives occurred. And in the east part of Europe emerged the second stage of indoeuropean language, the real steppe indoeuropean: Satem languages, i.e. : indo-aryan first (migration to Afanasievo?) and then Iranics( migration to Andronovo?). There is reason to believe that satem-speaking steppe indoeuropeans were carriers of light eyes and light hair. They expanded in the bronze Age toward east: central asia till Mongolia and toward south: near est (2000AC), Iran and (final bronze age) India. No conjectures, these area the places where indo-iranias are well attested. It is unpleasant to say, but indo-aryans built a racist society: the caste system in India is its descendant. Instead it is interesting to observe that in case of iranians, the Persian Empire (Achemenid, Partian,Sassanid) seems not to show similar "bias". A brief note about the Sumerians: they called themeselves "the black headed people", evidently to stand out from neighbors with lighter skin: semites, Hurrians, indoeuropeans. It is interesting to observe that there is some evidence (sumerian statues with blue eyes) that blue eyes were present in sumerian people (now this mix is a rarity, but it is a pattern widespread in European Paleolithic). Now, if we consider (highly hypotetical I know) Gutians as proto-indoeureopens linked with Tocharians-Arsi (as appeared in literature), and we consider blondism in Guthians (as already discussed in other threads), we can immagine a curious situation ... the clash of these two peoples: sumerians with blue eyes and dark complexion battling against gutians with fair complexion and brown eyes (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian...in_Mesopotamia)


    Now, I enjoyed trying to imagine a coherent picture of a part of history over the past 20,000 years, but I myself must admit that there are many highly hypothetical or controversial aspects.

    PS:
    It could be reasonable to suppose that also blonde proto-indouropeans (i.e. the people of tarim mummies) entering in China during bronze Age attempted to build a racist system based on (at least) two castes, indeed we can read:

    “The emperor [Yao] said:
    ‘Qi, the black-haired people are still suffering the distress of hunger.
    It is yours, O prince, the minister of Agriculture, to sow for them various kinds of grain’”
    (The Canon ofYao, Shang shu).

    So we have at least two peoples, not yet mixed. One with black hair suffering from hunger and another, presumibly, not: two different castes ?
    I would like to thank the user johen for allowing me to know this incredible paper (Zhao,2005):
    http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...griculture.pdf
    Last edited by jormung; 05-11-21 at 22:42.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jormung View Post
    Uhm, are you referring to the photo of "lady of Zagunluq" I've posted?
    In that case, maybe it can be appropriate to make the following clarification.
    No photoshop. It is taken from the web: https://www.dandebat.dk/images/529p.jpg
    But it is identical to the photo appearing in the book "In search of immortals", H.Reid, 1999 (so the photo must be previous).
    IMG_20211104_224902_4.jpg
    (I enjoyed taking the photo of the page of the book taht I own)
    The reason I posted that photo is to show CroMagnon features in a female Tarim mummy.
    Apart from pigmentation, I would say that these are Americanoid ( in the sense of classical anthorpology) face features.
    I find that face structures in the following photo are very similar (the main feature is the euriprosopy, the size of nose in the mummy can not be considered for the reasons mentioned above):

    cromagnon_types.png
    a) Sitting bull
    b) Cromagnon man reconstruction
    c) Geronimo
    d) Lady of Zaganluq
    Native Americans have significant east Asian admixture which takes you from the reconstruction to the actual... The original Siberians were not what we would consider East Asian today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I'm mad they didn't reference Villabruna and some other old WHG. Why?
    R1b from Villabruna comes from Basque-like Iron_Gate_HG_o and proto-Bell_Beaker_Iberia




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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    The Tarim basin was inhabited by Iranics coming from the west and south. You can see that in languages like Saka Khotanese. Uyghurs also carry a lot of BMAC ancestry so does the ancient Wusun people another hint that the Tarim basin was later inhabited by Iranics which do have steppe ancestry.

    Attachment 12995

    Attachment 12996

    Side note: I am not going to discuss the politics with you (real expert) but ANE isn't something particular North European. Indians carry much more ANE than Northern Europeans so does some indigenous Siberians.
    Why only considering BMAC ancestry, there was also tons of Anatolian ancestry back than.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Originally Posted by Megalophias
    ( anthrogenica)
    The Tarim Basin samples (~1600-1900 BC) had 2 R1b2-pre-PH155 and 1 R1(xR1a, R1b-L754), which is probably the same thing.
    The Dzhungarian ones (2800-3000 BC) had 2 Q2a-F1213 and 1 R1b1-Z2103.
    The R1b1-Z2103 is presumably from Afanasievo, the R1b2-PH155 from ANE/West Siberian/Central Asian people native to the Tarim Basin or nearby areas.
    P.s
    No surprise remains belong to r1b and Q1b1
    And i see also 1 individual R1(× r1b, r1a)
    They could be my ancestors.

    I am a Mongolian born PH155.

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