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Thread: Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age.

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    BR2 is an ancestor of Urnfield, related to G�va, he's being considered Kyjatice (even if not, genetically the individual is close), which is the sister group of G�va and had Channelled pottery too, so being part of the same South Eastern Urnfield complex. Kind of funny it peaks in Liguria and very Southern Italia. Quite fitting. It represents South Eastern Urnfielders before they mixed more heavily with the more Southern Pannonian-Balkan women on the way South (Belegis II-G�va, Fluted Ware Bulgaria, Knobbed Ware).
    I wrote about the context of this sample and its relevance for E-V13 and South Eastern Urnfield here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post633773

    Typically he had a Neolithic or Bronze Age Southern haplogroup as well.
    It peaks not only in Liguria, but also in Northwestern Tuscany, encompassing not only the Lunigiana and Garfagnana, but also Lucca and inland.

    I remember seeing that he was also related to the French when the first results came out.

    Anyway, as you can see, the ancestors of Rathlin went into Gaul, and then that Gaulish ancestry also went into the same area of Liguria and Northwest Tuscany via the 400 B.C. migrations. That migration is attested in the sudden appearance of new weapons in Liguria and the Lunigiana, as shown in the altering of our stone menhir.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by Angela; 03-11-21 at 21:59.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It peaks not only in Liguria, but also in Northwestern Tuscany, encompassing not only the Lunigiana and Garfagnana, but also Lucca and inland.

    I remember seeing that he was also related to the French when the first results came out.

    Anyway, as you can see, the ancestors of Rathlin went into Gaul, and then that Gaulish ancestry also went into the same area of Liguria and Northwest Tuscany via the 400 B.C. migrations. That migration is attested in the sudden appearance of new weapons in Liguria and the Lunigiana, as shown in the altering of our stone menhir.
    For E-V13 and that Kyjatice-related peak, one might consider the LBA and earlier IA too, especially Urnfield and Hallstatt. Something surely happened in between. The J-L283 sample from Slovenia is from the Unterkrainer group, which used the Illyrian burial rite and societal organisation. So the Illyrian : J-L283 connection being now confirmed. They also had Tumulus culture ancestry from the Rhenish-Alpine-Danubian sphere, those being represented by R-L2 and R-DF13, another I-Y3672.
    Those being the Alpine-Middle Danubian Tumulus culture and Middle Danubian Urnfielders, Kyjatice-Gva is the South Eastern Urnfield group, with which they mixed at the Middle Danube, but they are separate units. Kyjatice and Gva had more of the earlier Epi-Corded and Neolithic influences, probably being also closer to Unetice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    .




    From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:




    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002
    "Dating from between 900 and 800BC, the objects will go on show for the first time in Havering Hoard: A Bronze Age Mystery, at the Museum Of London Docklands."

    More than 450 bronze objects, including weapons and tools, were unearthed.https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/e...splay-1744346/

    late bronze age at Britain



    The One That’s The Biggest


    © WikiCommons
    Isleham Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 1000 BC, Cambridgshire, England
    The One That’s A Bit Woolly


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
    The One That Smells The Sweetest


    © Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
    Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England
    The One With The Most Wheels (And Sea Shells!)


    © British Museum
    Heathery Burn, Late Bronze Age, 1000-750 BC, County Durham, England

    # compare traditional nomad 銅鍑:
    https://t1.daumcdn.net/cafefile/pds6..._47d20adcb52ec

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    WERE THE OLD FRISII 'NORTH SEA CELTS' !?

    Let me introduce to you: Aak. A nine year old boy. He lived in the iron age in nowadays Uitgeest, West-Friesland.


    A few years ago they reconstructed him, because contrair to his old Frisian folk in IA he was not incremented, but buried in a Tumulus in some kind of holy place near a river. The remains have been found in the eighties.

    Item Dutch national broadcasting news, a few years ago:
    https://nos.nl/artikel/2015504-even-...t-de-ijzertijd


    But of course for some is this too 'romantic', these are the "data" :

    I12907 R-S265*(xAMM490.2) Netherlands_IA 356-57 cal BCE (2160±30 BP, GrN 25639) Noord-Holland, Uitgeest-Dorregeest Netherlands 52.529 4.709
    A line beneath Z156, according to R1b U106 Iain Mc Donald it's an subbranche associated with Tumulus/ Urnfield spread. Aak lived in the iron age. But during MBA/LBA his (probable) ancestors lived in the so called Hoogkarspel culture, part of Elp culture, which is a Tumulus/ Urnfield culture.


    Wiki


    The so-called Hoogkarspel culture is an important part of the Elp culture, a culture of the Bronze Age dating from approx. 1800-800 BC. In the 1960s remains were found of a tumulus behind the Hoogkarspel water tower, and remains of an agricultural settlement were discovered in the 1970s, dating from 1000 BC. Two periods are identified, Hoogkarspel-I (1400-1100 cal BC) and Hoogkarspel-II (800-400 cal BC).[2] Earthenware found in the area is divided into old and young, following the influential publication by R. W. Brandt in 1988.[3]
    More about Aak's contemporary culture of iron age Frisians (in english):
    https://collectie.huisvanhilde.nl/pd...they_leave.pdf


    These folks were more autosomal mort probably more "Celtic" like than "Germanic" like. Ok I took an old fashioned calculator (K36 eurogenes), but to some extent it wil do the job. I used some info from Maciamo (2014)

    Code:
    IA West Frisia
     
    I12907 - R-S265*
    Amerindian: 2.27%
    Basque: 1.46%
    Central Euro: 8.05%
    East Central Euro: 2.51%
    Eastern Euro: 2.90%
    Fennoscandian: 15.60%
    French: 3.67%
    Iberian: 13.08%
    Italian: 5.29%
    North Atlantic: 16.36%
    North Caucasian: 0.50%
    North Sea: 25.88%
    West Caucasian: 2.42%
     
    vs
    Modern North Dutch My Dad
    Basque 2.48 Pct
    Central_Euro 4.25 Pct
    East_Balkan 4.76 Pct
    East_Central_Euro 3.15 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 5.71 Pct
    Fennoscandian 13.34 Pct
    French 6.78 Pct
    Iberian 7.98 Pct
    Italian 7.26 Pct
    North_Atlantic 19.5 Pct
    North_Sea 24.15 Pct
    West_Caucasian 0.64 Pct
     
    Modern North Dutch My Mom
    Population
    Basque 2.12 Pct
    Central_Euro 7.03 Pct
    East_Balkan 2.89 Pct
    East_Central_Euro 9.53 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 4.03 Pct
    Fennoscandian 13.11 Pct
    French 7.23 Pct
    Iberian 7.25 Pct
    Italian 5.16 Pct
    North_Atlantic 18 Pct
    North_Sea 21.88 Pct
    West_Med 1.78 Pct
    An add in the golden oldies sphere, K36 of the Hinxtons, done by Maciamo and Davidski long time ago, nevertheless the West Frisian IA sample is, because of his high Iberian, clearly on the Celtic side of the Hinxtons. He comes closer to Hinxton 1 and 4 regarding Iberian! Seen the modern result of for example Dad and Mom, I guess modern North Dutch are Anglo-Saxon like with an IA "Celtic like" substrate....his "Iberian" (and EEF component) is in the 'middle' (7/8%) between Anglo-Saxon Hinxton 2 (0%) and West Frisian IA (13%)!

    Reich's publication is very much about an enhanced EEF ("Iberian" / K36) during BA/IA.

    Code:
    Hinxton 1 (Iron-age Celt, R1b-L21, K1a1b1b)
     
    0.00% Amerindian
    0.00% Arabian
    0.00% Armenian
    0.18% Basque
    0.00% Central_African
    6.95% Central_Euro
    0.00% East_African
    0.00% East_Asian
    2.83% East_Balkan
    0.00% East_Central_Asian
    0.11% East_Central_Euro
    0.00% East_Med
    8.63% Eastern_Euro
    7.28% Fennoscandian
    7.69% French
    20.20% Iberian
    0.00% Indo-Chinese
    5.01% Italian
    0.00% Malayan
    0.00% Near_Eastern
    0.09% North_African
    18.73% North_Atlantic
    1.49% North_Caucasian
    20.11% North_Sea
    0.00% Northeast_African
    0.00% Oceanian
    0.00% Omotic
    0.00% Pygmy
    0.00% Siberian
    0.00% South_Asian
    0.00% South_Central_Asian
    0.00% South_Chinese
    0.71% Volga-Ural
    0.00% West_African
    0.00% West_Caucasian
    0.00% West_Med
     
    Hinxton 4 (Iron Age Celt, R1b-L21, H1ag1)
     
    0.00% Amerindian
    0.00% Arabian
    0.00% Armenian
    1.01% Basque
    0.00% Central_African
    8.46% Central_Euro
    0.00% East_African
    0.00% East_Asian
    0.24% East_Balkan
    0.00% East_Central_Asian
    6.52% East_Central_Euro
    0.00% East_Med
    1.22% Eastern_Euro
    12.00% Fennoscandian
    10.18% French
    18.53% Iberian
    0.00% Indo-Chinese
    5.53% Italian
    0.00% Malayan
    0.00% Near_Eastern
    0.00% North_African
    19.48% North_Atlantic
    3.90% North_Caucasian
    12.92% North_Sea
    0.00% Northeast_African
    0.00% Oceanian
    0.00% Omotic
    0.00% Pygmy
    0.00% Siberian
    0.00% South_Asian
    0.00% South_Central_Asian
    0.00% South_Chinese
    0.00% Volga-Ural
    0.00% West_African
    0.00% West_Caucasian
    0.01% West_Med
     
     
    Hinxton 2 (Anglo-Saxon, H2a2b)
     
    0.00% Amerindian
    0.00% Arabian
    0.00% Armenian
    2.78% Basque
    0.00% Central_African
    7.27% Central_Euro
    0.00% East_African
    0.00% East_Asian
    0.04% East_Balkan
    0.00% East_Central_Asian
    2.25% East_Central_Euro
    0.00% East_Med
    5.78% Eastern_Euro
    10.38% Fennoscandian
    5.66% French
    0.01% Iberian
    0.00% Indo-Chinese
    10.57% Italian
    0.00% Malayan
    0.00% Near_Eastern
    0.00% North_African
    24.92% North_Atlantic
    0.00% North_Caucasian
    27.69% North_Sea
    0.00% Northeast_African
    0.00% Oceanian
    0.00% Omotic
    0.00% Pygmy
    0.00% Siberian
    0.00% South_Asian
    0.74% South_Central_Asian
    0.00% South_Chinese
    1.90% Volga-Ural
    0.00% West_African
    0.00% West_Caucasian
    0.00% West_Med
     
     
    Hinxton 3 (Anglo-Saxon, mix?, K1a4a1a2)
     
    0.00% Amerindian
    0.00% Arabian
    0.01% Armenian
    4.67% Basque
    1.04% Central_African
    8.10% Central_Euro
    0.00% East_African
    0.00% East_Asian
    0.00% East_Balkan
    0.00% East_Central_Asian
    0.25% East_Central_Euro
    0.00% East_Med
    0.18% Eastern_Euro
    11.54% Fennoscandian
    6.34% French
    5.18% Iberian
    0.00% Indo-Chinese
    2.77% Italian
    0.00% Malayan
    0.00% Near_Eastern
    0.02% North_African
    21.30% North_Atlantic
    2.22% North_Caucasian
    31.83% North_Sea
    0.00% Northeast_African
    0.00% Oceanian
    0.00% Omotic
    0.00% Pygmy
    0.00% Siberian
    0.00% South_Asian
    1.04% South_Central_Asian
    0.00% South_Chinese
    0.24% Volga-Ural
    0.01% West_African
    3.25% West_Caucasian
    0.01% West_Med
     
    Hinxton 5 (Anglo-Saxon, mix?, H2a2a)
     
    0.00% Amerindian
    0.00% Arabian
    0.00% Armenian
    3.35% Basque
    0.00% Central_African
    6.27% Central_Euro
    0.00% East_African
    0.00% East_Asian
    3.06% East_Balkan
    0.00% East_Central_Asian
    6.16% East_Central_Euro
    0.00% East_Med
    3.65% Eastern_Euro
    12.55% Fennoscandian
    6.15% French
    15.42% Iberian
    0.00% Indo-Chinese
    6.28% Italian
    0.00% Malayan
    0.00% Near_Eastern
    0.94% North_African
    15.76% North_Atlantic
    1.05% North_Caucasian
    19.35% North_Sea
    0.00% Northeast_African
    0.00% Oceanian
    0.00% Omotic
    0.00% Pygmy
    0.00% Siberian
    0.00% South_Asian
    0.00% South_Central_Asian
    0.00% South_Chinese
    0.00% Volga-Ural
    0.00% West_African
    0.00% West_Caucasian
    0.00% West_Med
    Ok this genetics but we see the same in the case of language, old Frisian is just like old English, Germanic with a Celtic substrate.....

    Jan de Koning and Menno Dijkstra (quote):


    So the old Frisii were "North Sea Celts" !?

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    Interesting thanks for sharing
    Sad
    From what did he died that young ?
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Interesting thanks for sharing
    Sad
    From what did he died that young ?
    Welcome! That's still unclear he had no injuries seemed healthy. He was buried at a sacred placed, near a river....beneath a tumulus kind of exceptional. So stays enigmatic.....

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    Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.
    i think than we going to see more I1 remains




    p.s
    it could be that altverd was wrong and maybe he missed other I1 cases
    in the bam files who knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

    Yes, it is a bit disappointing. Unfortunately, that’s the way it seems to go with I1. Personally, I wasn’t expecting very much for the Bronze Age, considering where they tested but the lack of IA samples was a little surprising to me. A lot will depend on where they sampled and when. So hopefully, we’ll still be able to learn something by seeing where I1 wasn’t during the time periods in question. Once the details are finally released.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ok i will post altverd from anthrogenica work i count on him

    6 - DF27 R1b1a1b1a1a2a
    51 - U152 R1b1a1b1a1a2b (47 L2, 3 Z36, 1 Z56 / PF6601)
    151 - L21 R1b1a1b1a1a2c
    2 - DF19 R1b1a1b1a1a2e
    238 - P312 R1b1a1b1a1a2
    10 - U106
    9 - R1a
    4 - E1b1b1a1b1
    19 - G2a2b2a
    1 - H2
    64 - I2 (51 - I2a1)
    1 - I1
    12 - J2 (1 J2a, 11 J2b)
    1 - N1a1a1a1a1a1a
    ‘The Atlantic Bronze Age could correspond to the period when DF27 radiated more evenly around Iberia and ended up, following Atlantic trade routes, all the way to the British Isles, the Netherlands and Scandinavia.’ By Maciamo in https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...DNA.shtml#DF27

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Halstatt expansion ? , was it phase 1 1000BC ( everybody likes to forget this phase ).... or phase 2, 800BC ................or is it 400 years a later under La Tene ?

    If La Tene and Halstatt are the same people ? ......as they are over 400 years apart in time

    maybe it was just plain old Southern-Germany celtish lands

    or even celtish central-Germany from Glauberg
    I think western Hallstatt is based on a foreign input from Hungary or around (1/4 of the elites seemed come from elsewhere, physically speaking) among already Celtised tribes; La Tène is a turn in geographical trade relations and maybe the result of complete assimilation of these "previous new" elites; kind of return to more ancient demic structures? Perhaps Hallstatt is responsible for the Qw- to P- change in Celtic (and elsewhere?); I know, I repeat myself!

    apart this answer, more generally (you are not concerned) I think someones rely too much on schemes like "population replacement"; too often in history we see what seems the return of pop's structures considered as erased before. It cannot be everytime the result of new pop's which were by hazard very similar to ancient gone ones. What is not to say that in this very case, there are not been heavy changes in peopling of Britain around LBA/EIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The One That’s A Bit Woolly


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
    The One That Smells The Sweetest


    © Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
    Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England
    Hallstatte has also circle ring culture. As far as I am concerned, typical altai culture is circle ring (sun) culture, the circle ring means also snake like snake torc.

    Hallstatte:
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165

    celtic in spain:



    "Unfortunately, in China we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the Chemurchek culture. Kovalev, Erdenebaatar, Tishkin and Grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated Chemurchek stone boxes (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar 2014a; Tishkin et al. 2015). Such lead rings are typical for Elunino culture,which occupied the entire West Altai after 2400–2300 BCE (Tishkin et al. 2015)."

    seima turbino shaman:


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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think western Hallstatt is based on a foreign input from Hungary or around (1/4 of the elites seemed come from elsewhere, physically speaking) among already Celtised tribes; La Tène is a turn in geographical trade relations and maybe the result of complete assimilation of these "previous new" elites; kind of return to more ancient demic structures? Perhaps Hallstatt is responsible for the Qw- to P- change in Celtic (and elsewhere?); I know, I repeat myself!

    apart this answer, more generally (you are not concerned) I think someones rely too much on schemes like "population replacement"; too often in history we see what seems the return of pop's structures considered as erased before. It cannot be everytime the result of new pop's which were by hazard very similar to ancient gone ones. What is not to say that in this very case, there are not been heavy changes in peopling of Britain around LBA/EIA.
    Hallstatt was mainly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi culture (Daco-Thracians). This is very evident in every respect, but especially in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere, the Frg and Kalenderberg group. Probably even some of the elites were of foreign descent. The line of communication was along the Danube:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Hallstattzeit

    La Tene did profit from the Phoceans setting up their colony Massilia and its daughter colonies, which made them independent and gave the La Tene group direct access to the East Mediterranean world, instead of depending on the Eastern Hallstatt elites. This happened right when the Eastern group was severely crippled and almost completely destroyed, later transformed, by the Scythian and Thraco-Scythian incursions. These were very influential on La Tene too, but didn't weaken it as much, which gave the West, together with the Massilia trade port and Greek allies, decisive advantages. Things like trousers, animal style, horse cult, larger horse breeds and heavy cavalry spread from the East and formed the new Celtic world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Hallstatt was mainly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi culture (Daco-Thracians). This is very evident in every respect, but especially in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere, the Fr�g and Kalenderberg group. Probably even some of the elites were of foreign descent. The line of communication was along the Danube:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Hallstattzeit

    La Tene did profit from the Phoceans setting up their colony Massilia and its daughter colonies, which made them independent and gave the La Tene group direct access to the East Mediterranean world, instead of depending on the Eastern Hallstatt elites. This happened right when the Eastern group was severely crippled and almost completely destroyed, later transformed, by the Scythian and Thraco-Scythian incursions. These were very influential on La Tene too, but didn't weaken it as much, which gave the West, together with the Massilia trade port and Greek allies, decisive advantages. Things like trousers, animal style, horse cult, larger horse breeds and heavy cavalry spread from the East and formed the new Celtic world.
    what is the relation between La Tene and Gauls?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    what is the relation between La Tene and Gauls?
    La Tene is the Gauls and La Tene is the only culture which can be clearly linked with the Celtic ethnicity, unlike Urnfield or Hallstatt, which had different archaeological groups and were most likely multi-ethnic. La Tene is THE classically Celtic culture. Hallstatt was not, not even for the Celtic parts of it, because La Tene was a cultural and social revolution, even in the Western Celtic territories, were old aristocratic upper classes and religious ideas were destroyed and replaced by new ones. Many associate that with Greek ideas, because in Greece there were at that time new social phenomenons and (democratic) ideas as well. Hallstatt was strictly hiearchic, most likely like a caste society and in some regions even different elements in the upper class than in the common populace.
    We can also see that there were pockets of old Hallstatt groups, which seem to have been conquered, destroyed or assimilated by the La Tene Celts. So this was a very clear divide. Like in Central Germany, there was a whole belt of conservative Hallstatt cultural elements with huge fortifications. They were destroyed in a huge pincer movement of La Tene Celts and Jastorf Germanics. This is also when (proper) Celts and Germanics came in very direct contact the first time. The Northern part was taken by the Germanics, the Southern by the expanding La Tene Celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    La Tene is the Gauls and La Tene is the only culture which can be clearly linked with the Celtic ethnicity, unlike Urnfield or Hallstatt, which had different archaeological groups and were most likely multi-ethnic. La Tene is THE classically Celtic culture. Hallstatt was not, not even for the Celtic parts of it, because La Tene was a cultural and social revolution, even in the Western Celtic territories, were old aristocratic upper classes and religious ideas were destroyed and replaced by new ones. Many associate that with Greek ideas, because in Greece there were at that time new social phenomenons and (democratic) ideas as well. Hallstatt was strictly hiearchic, most likely like a caste society and in some regions even different elements in the upper class than in the common populace.
    We can also see that there were pockets of old Hallstatt groups, which seem to have been conquered, destroyed or assimilated by the La Tene Celts. So this was a very clear divide. Like in Central Germany, there was a whole belt of conservative Hallstatt cultural elements with huge fortifications. They were destroyed in a huge pincer movement of La Tene Celts and Jastorf Germanics. This is also when (proper) Celts and Germanics came in very direct contact the first time. The Northern part was taken by the Germanics, the Southern by the expanding La Tene Celts.
    You have a very precise and seemingly very well documented narrative, about Y-E-V13,Channeled Ware, Hallstatt and so on ; I'm just cautious about the interpretations of all these cultural changes and both their demic causes and consequences. Concerning the quasi destruction of Hallstatt in West by Gaulish Celts and first Germanics I would be glad to have some more supporting clues. These cultural changes are surely linked to some demic moves, but in my mind, I see Celts in these region before Hallstatt and before LaTène. I see more inter-elites exchanges than allover populational changes in West. In West, in place of huge genetic new arrivals after Chalco I see rather progressive osmosis between ethnies and tribes (evidently, not an allover level one, and rather females mediated yet?). Hallstatt is somewhat intrusive in West (N-Alps and around) but not a complete turnover in pop's auDNA, LaTène even less. The Elites were prone to exchanges of prestige goods and personal weapons, and they could sometimes loan the service of foreign technicians for buildings, or foreign artists for some decorative goods;
    the sociological/political analysis of the UF/Hallstatt/LaTène period of moves and changes needs knowledge I have not, but since BA we are no more in a pure invasion/replacement model; destructions could be more social sometimes than ethnic, even if one can intensify an other. More my personal interrogations than a sound affirmation.

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    @Riverman. I'm a bit expeditive in my comments, spite yourself was moderate in your last post. My first aim was to propose LaTène/Western Hallstatt late conflicts were intra-Celts conflict, as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    You have a very precise and seemingly very well documented narrative, about Y-E-V13,Channeled Ware, Hallstatt and so on ; I'm just cautious about the interpretations of all these cultural changes and both their demic causes and consequences. Concerning the quasi destruction of Hallstatt in West by Gaulish Celts and first Germanics I would be glad to have some more supporting clues. These cultural changes are surely linked to some demic moves, but in my mind, I see Celts in these region before Hallstatt and before LaTène. I see more inter-elites exchanges than allover populational changes in West. In West, in place of huge genetic new arrivals after Chalco I see rather progressive osmosis between ethnies and tribes (evidently, not an allover level one, and rather females mediated yet?). Hallstatt is somewhat intrusive in West (N-Alps and around) but not a complete turnover in pop's auDNA, LaTène even less. The Elites were prone to exchanges of prestige goods and personal weapons, and they could sometimes loan the service of foreign technicians for buildings, or foreign artists for some decorative goods;
    the sociological/political analysis of the UF/Hallstatt/LaTène period of moves and changes needs knowledge I have not, but since BA we are no more in a pure invasion/replacement model; destructions could be more social sometimes than ethnic, even if one can intensify an other. More my personal interrogations than a sound affirmation.
    The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Frg and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
    La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
    In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
    We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
    This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    La Tene
    Do you know where celtic head-hunting culture originated in?
    I think it is not so much different from scythian culture.
    -
    Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
    "They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts


    - I think the following cultures seems to originte in steppe:
    China

    During the Spring and Autumn period and Warring States period, Qin soldiers frequently collected their defeated enemies' heads as a means to accumulate merits. After Shang Yang's reforms, the Qin armies adopted a meritocracy system that awards the average soldiers, most of whom were conscripted serfs and were not paid, an opportunity to earn promotions and rewards from their superiors by collecting the heads of enemies, a type of body count. In this area, authorities also displayed heads of executed criminals in public spaces up to the early 20th century.
    Japan


    Tom O'Neill wrote:
    Samurai also sought glory by headhunting. When a battle ended, the warrior, true to his mercenary origins, would ceremoniously present trophy heads to a general, who would variously reward him with promotions in rank, gold or silver, or land from the defeated clan. Generals displayed the heads of defeated rivals in public squares.[20]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Fr�g and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
    La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
    In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
    We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
    This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.
    it depends on the perspective.

    Aurignacian dna ( proto ANE) was likely an eastward movement from more western location (Goyet like) in Europe ( and it reached all the way to north east Siberia)
    WHG repopulated the continent from the south and again it was mostly a west to east movement.
    EEF is a south to north movement but the most succesful of the EEF ( atlanto -mediterranean GAC/TRB like) was again a west to east movement.


    europeans are ANE/WHG/EEF with steppe being just a combination of the three
    culturally europeans are mostly a roman/greek construct. South to north in this case.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Do you know where celtic head-hunting culture originated in?
    I think it is not so much different from scythian culture.
    -
    Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
    "They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts


    - I think the following cultures seems to originte in steppe:
    China

    During the Spring and Autumn period and Warring States period, Qin soldiers frequently collected their defeated enemies' heads as a means to accumulate merits. After Shang Yang's reforms, the Qin armies adopted a meritocracy system that awards the average soldiers, most of whom were conscripted serfs and were not paid, an opportunity to earn promotions and rewards from their superiors by collecting the heads of enemies, a type of body count. In this area, authorities also displayed heads of executed criminals in public spaces up to the early 20th century.
    Japan


    Tom O'Neill wrote:
    Samurai also sought glory by headhunting. When a battle ended, the warrior, true to his mercenary origins, would ceremoniously present trophy heads to a general, who would variously reward him with promotions in rank, gold or silver, or land from the defeated clan. Generals displayed the heads of defeated rivals in public squares.[20]
    Yes, that's correct, and La Tene Celts surely had many Scythian derived influences, most likely transmitted via Thraco-Scythian contacts over Pannnonia-Southern Germany. However, I wouldn't emphasize head hunting too much, because it was a fairly common practise in many people throughout the world, some of which not even Eurasian.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    While investigating the E-V13 samples, I came across what might be a Bronze Age North Pannonian cluster, possibly related to Unetice and Fzesabony. In detail I wrote about it from this post on:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post634475

    The cluster is fairly close in the modern context, right on the borderline between Germanic and Slavic. Any opinions on the samples, their coverage and the haplogroups assigned - looks unreliable for some:

    Others close to Fzesabony are:

    Top:
    Celtic_paper:I25525 0.02440513 (H-FT328400) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, still inside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT328400/
    Celtic_paper:I12106 0.02489549 (I-Y199009) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y199009/
    Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/
    Celtic_paper:I16272 0.03078742 (E-Z1057 / E-V13) (closest to Austrian and East German, plots in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, solidly in the German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1057/

    Also:

    Celtic_paper:I7964 0.03253927 (G-M3146)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M3146/
    Celtic_paper:I11719 0.03283871 (H-M6344)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M6344/
    Celtic_paper:I18183 0.03398289 (CT)
    Celtic_paper:I2448 0.03485399 (R-CTS6919)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6919/
    Celtic_paper:I15646 0.03490963 (I-S6635)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S6635/
    Celtic_paper:I14188 0.03518577 (R-L2)
    Celtic_paper:I5287 0.03563537 (R-Y30815)
    Celtic_paper:I13780 0.03566515 (R-YP5267)
    Celtic_paper:I14863 0.03593852 (R-L21)

    That's a very high fraction of Neolithic yDNA in the top 6 results, especially of haplogroup H, based on the results teapean47 posted:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post812982
    Unfortunately some of the results might be not as reliable, since their coverage is rather low.

    The top 4 in the Northern European plot:


    https://ibb.co/CWZfRRh


    They are also very close in their basic components:


    https://ibb.co/tPR6k8y

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    While investigating the E-V13 samples, I came across what might be a Bronze Age North Pannonian cluster, possibly related to Unetice and F�zesabony. In detail I wrote about it from this post on:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post634475

    The cluster is fairly close in the modern context, right on the borderline between Germanic and Slavic. Any opinions on the samples, their coverage and the haplogroups assigned - looks unreliable for some:

    Others close to F�zesabony are:

    Top:
    Celtic_paper:I25525 0.02440513 (H-FT328400) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, still inside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-FT328400/
    Celtic_paper:I12106 0.02489549 (I-Y199009) (closest to Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y199009/
    Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/
    Celtic_paper:I16272 0.03078742 (E-Z1057 / E-V13) (closest to Austrian and East German, plots in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, solidly in the German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1057/

    Also:

    Celtic_paper:I7964 0.03253927 (G-M3146)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M3146/
    Celtic_paper:I11719 0.03283871 (H-M6344)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M6344/
    Celtic_paper:I18183 0.03398289 (CT)
    Celtic_paper:I2448 0.03485399 (R-CTS6919)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6919/
    Celtic_paper:I15646 0.03490963 (I-S6635)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S6635/
    Celtic_paper:I14188 0.03518577 (R-L2)
    Celtic_paper:I5287 0.03563537 (R-Y30815)
    Celtic_paper:I13780 0.03566515 (R-YP5267)
    Celtic_paper:I14863 0.03593852 (R-L21)

    That's a very high fraction of Neolithic yDNA in the top 6 results, especially of haplogroup H, based on the results teapean47 posted:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post812982
    Unfortunately some of the results might be not as reliable, since their coverage is rather low.

    The top 4 in the Northern European plot:


    https://ibb.co/CWZfRRh


    They are also very close in their basic components:


    https://ibb.co/tPR6k8y

    Celts look like all eastern alps area ( halstatt ) and even maybe some Przeworsk culture
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The issue is, that we actually see a constant flow of individuals, especially elites, from Basarabi to Eastern Hallstatt groups, especially Fr�g and Kalenderberg, and from there going on. All the iron metal working and new types of weapons first came from Channelled Ware, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi in an East -> West movement.
    La Tene is a very fundamental, revolutionary change, as it was rising up exactly when the Eastern Hallstatt sphere was going down. What we do know is that some elites might have been slaughtered in the later Celtic sphere, some temples and princely seats burned to the ground. Idols, symbols of the old belief and elite destroyed, a quite big change in customs and style - everything happening in the Hallstatt -> La Tene transition.
    In some parts of the Benelux and Central Germany, a more conservative group which wasn't at first affected by the La Tene power shift and revolution, was persisting and blocked the Germanics from direct contact and access to the La Tene world. This really just changed when they, like decribed before, together crushed those Hallstatt remains in Benelux and Germany.
    We don't know what the people in these Hallstatt groups spoke, we don't know what pre-La Tene Hallstatt people from Noricum were. Probably they were Celts, or Para-Celts, or something different - or one thing here, another there. But what we do know is that the elite in Hallstatt was very strongly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerians, Daco-Thracians and Pannonians, by Greek culture and influences, more so than La Tene. This means La Tene is in any case "more purely Celtic". And typically, in the core regions of the Celts, some of the haplogroups go down, which being more common in Hallstatt core zones, this includes E-V13. They are there, because there were also spread into Western Hallstatt, but on a lower level and again reduced by this massive shift, from a East -> West flow to the West -> East flow with La Tene.
    This is rather exceptional, because how many examples from prehistory are known? Usually it was always going East -> West. Bell Beakers, La Tene Celts and early Romans are rather exceptional. If you think about it, how many population movements came from Iberia, how many ended up there? The difference is huge.
    Noricum history ( by old scholars ) state that it was named after the Nori ( illyrian ) tribe ..........when celts moved in from southern Germany in the first phase of Halstatt , circa 1000BC .........the 2 races mixed ..............these Nori became the Norici tribe once they became celtinized.

    We have the Illyrian iron mines as well, Noric steel .............Strabo and Livy did state that the Illyrian where as far west as neighbors of the Rhaetic tribes in modern Austria

    Heading into southern Noricum ( known by Romans as Noricum Mediterranean ) ...........we have many trading hubs of Venetic-Pannonin-Illyrian tribes merging around the current slovenian capital areas and further south into modern North Croatia

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Noricum history ( by old scholars ) state that it was named after the Nori ( illyrian ) tribe ..........when celts moved in from southern Germany in the first phase of Halstatt , circa 1000BC .........the 2 races mixed ..............these Nori became the Norici tribe once they became celtinized.
    We have the Illyrian iron mines as well, Noric steel .............Strabo and Livy did state that the Illyrian where as far west as neighbors of the Rhaetic tribes in modern Austria
    Heading into southern Noricum ( known by Romans as Noricum Mediterranean ) ...........we have many trading hubs of Venetic-Pannonin-Illyrian tribes merging around the current slovenian capital areas and further south into modern North Croatia
    That's disputed, but my opinion as well. However, we don't deal with "Illyrian proper" North of the Unterkrainer group, but rather zones of mixture between Celts, Pannonian-Illyrians (Middle Danubian Urnfielders) and Basarabi (Daco-Thracian). That's different from the "real" or Illyrians in the narrower sense of Glasinac related formations.

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