Genetic study Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age.

[Riverman]

So the U-152 could have been a larger percentage of the actual migrating group. It would be informative if they isolated the yDna of that actual migrating group so more valid conclusions could be drawn.

Still, the U-152 is almost all L2, which provides a valuable clue.

There seems to be some clustering around the Carpathian sphere in some, but this needs to be figured out. Like the best case for E-V13 in Britain and to which other individuals from the study he's closest to:
The most relevant is imho I14465 E1b1b1a1b1a20~ E-BY4643 because of his subclade:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=812508&viewfull=1#post812508

And the most interesting part about him might be with which other samples from the studies he clusters, and their yDNA:
0.02434444 Britain_MLBA:I5691 J2b2a1a1a~ J-Z2516/etc*
0.02477432 Britain_MLBA:I13786 R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a4b6a R-BY325
0.02730967 Britain_MLBA:I13620 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 R-L2*
0.02735612 Britain_MLBA:I18259 R1b1a1b1a1 R-CTS7650*
0.02764787 Britain_MLBA:I13794 I13794 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 R-L2*

A lot of R-L2, so they are associated, like expected, with R-U152!
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L2/ (2)
But also more typical Western Celtic https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z253/ (1)

R-CTS7650 = ?

Upstream its being found in an ancient sample from the Polish Carpathians (!):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/

Sample PCW070 from a Corded Ware/Epi-Corded context near Przemyśl, Podkarpackie:
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#8/49.434/22.473

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Podkarpackie

The Corded Ware was from this study:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w

The study is also interesting for the context of the region:

All individuals studied here are associated to burials of the CWC and BBC complexes. Based on the geographic location and the strontium isotope analysis we identified four different territorial sub groups, and based on the genetics we identified at least two different groups within our sample set. The mtDNA and the Y-chromosome data provide a slightly different picture of the genetic variation in the region contrasting earlier studies of individuals from corresponding archaeological contexts from other regions of Central Europe. In contrast to observations by Juras et al.12 we did not find mitochondrial lineages specifically linked to Yamnaya pastoralists, instead most of mtDNA lineages found in our sample may be associated with European Neolithic farming groups as is the case for the Western Corded Ware sample in the earlier study12. Our results would indicate a stronger continuity with earlier Neolithic populations than previously observed. In other words, our study detected traces of an evident ?incorporation? of local individuals into the migrating groups. However, the funerary rituals seem to have been affected in limited extent as the burials exhibit the typical CWC pattern in all cases examined.

And like I say all the time, the most likely path for E-V13 to make it was to be incorporated into the Epi-Corded groups, in the Carpathians, possibly as specialist miners and metal workers, but in any case they were. If those two would stem from the same context, that would be big and E-V13 would prove that male lineages in the Carpathian region were incorporated too, together with a majority of females, by the local Corded Ware and Bell Beakers.

This was a different Corded Ware context:

he Y chromosome haplogroup lineage R1b-M269 or R-L11 are characteristic of Yamnaya and Bell Beaker individuals5,10 and they were particularly widespread throughout Eurasia in the Bronze Age and thereafter38. Curiously, the haplogroup is uncommon among other published Corded Ware Complex individuals from Europe (Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Estonia, Lithuania)6 and is associated with the later Bell Beaker communities5. We see the inclusion of the Yamnaya genetic signals but again in a different manner than what has been shown in adjacent regions. These results indicate a higher level of CWC continuity with earlier Neolithic individuals than those previously studied.

Also interesting:

Bell Beaker individuals from Pełczyska mostly favour German, Polish (lowland) and Estonian CWC as well as German and Czech Bell Beaker populations over Steppe ancestors (Table S16). Interestingly, in contrast to CWC individuals from south-eastern Poland (Group I, II and IV), they share significantly closer affinity to Neolithic Iberian, Italian, Hungarian, Swedish, Polish TRB and Brześć Kujawski group populations (and nonsignificant but positive affinity to Polish Globular Amphora) than Yamnaya, pointing to possible continuity between this group and earlier populations. The genetic specificity of the population associated with this process shows similarity to the features of the BBC complex in Central Europe dated ca. 150-200 years later

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w

And the J-guy seems to be: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/
So a J-L283 Pannonian-Illyrian most likely, which travelled with them, either in Urnfield or Hallstatt - or even staying, depending on where they found them.

 

[Angela]

Well, my bet would be that they left a lot of Neolithic like E-V13 behind, to filter down into Albania and Greece.

It is interesting for Italy to the extent that perhaps like G2a there are perhaps two "types" of E-V13 in Italy, which bore a different autosomal make up when they arrived in Italy.

Also, fwiw, the closest Bronze Age population to a lot of northern Italy, if you go beyond the Balkan populations, is Hungarian Bronze Age.

I'm afraid it's useless to direct me to anthrogenica threads since, when I happened to lose both my user name and password there when my computer crashed and died and I lost a lot of my data, and I tried to re-register, they banned me permanently without any discussion whatsoever. That, despite the fact that I have never in my life posted a single line there. I guess just my reading their posts somehow threatens them. They fit right in with the current climate of not welcoming debate and trying to cancel anyone who disagrees with them. It's unfortunate, because I think most people want to hear all sides of an issue. Ultimately, as our elections are pointing out, behavior like that turns people off.

 

[Riverman]

Well, my bet would be that they left a lot of Neolithic like E-V13 behind, to filter down into Albania and Greece.

Sure, the bulk was staying, a large fraction went South initially. They being thinned out later, mainly by the Slavic migrations, which might have carried E-V13 themselve, but less and different subclades.

It is interesting for Italy to the extent that perhaps like G2a there are perhaps two "types" of E-V13 in Italy, which bore a different autosomal make up when they arrived in Italy.

Yes, the North received most via Urnfield, Hallstatt, Celts and Germanics, only minor Greek and Illyrian, whereas it was the other way around for the south, with way more Illyrian, Greek and Thracian, but still from the more Northern route also, on the long run.

Also, fwiw, the closest Bronze Age population to a lot of northern Italy, if you go beyond the Balkan populations, is Hungarian Bronze Age.

Italics and Celts both came from the Rhenish-Alpine-Danubian area and as we know by now, Etruscans too picked a lot up from those Bell Beaker derived Central Europeans. Pannonia-Carpathian region is where most of the non-Corded, non-Bell Beaker lineages for modern Europeans came from I'd say. This includes most of I2, G2a, J2 and E-V13, probably even I1, but that's unresolved, might as well be local Northern European. Its at first best visible in Unetice, which was a fusion of Epi-Corded and Carpatho-Pannonian groups on top of Bell Beakers as well.

 

[Angela]

Sure, the bulk was staying, a large fraction went South initially. They being thinned out later, mainly by the Slavic migrations, which might have carried E-V13 themselve, but less and different subclades.



Yes, the North received most via Urnfield, Hallstatt, Celts and Germanics, only minor Greek and Illyrian, whereas it was the other way around for the south, with way more Illyrian, Greek and Thracian, but still from the more Northern route also, on the long run.



Italics and Celts both came from the Rhenish-Alpine-Danubian area and as we know by now, Etruscans too picked a lot up from those Bell Beaker derived Central Europeans. Pannonia-Carpathian region is where most of the non-Corded, non-Bell Beaker lineages for modern Europeans came from I'd say. This includes most of I2, G2a, J2 and E-V13, probably even I1, but that's unresolved, might as well be local Northern European. Its at first best visible in Unetice, which was a fusion of Epi-Corded and Carpatho-Pannonian groups on top of Bell Beakers as well.

As to your bolded comment, we'll see.

As to Italy in terms of Hungarian Bronze Age:

 

[Riverman]

As to your bolded comment, we'll see.

As to Italy in terms of Hungarian Bronze Age:

BR2 is an ancestor of Urnfield, related to G?va, he's being considered Kyjatice (even if not, genetically the individual is close), which is the sister group of G?va and had Channelled pottery too, so being part of the same South Eastern Urnfield complex. Kind of funny it peaks in Liguria and very Southern Italia. Quite fitting. It represents South Eastern Urnfielders before they mixed more heavily with the more Southern Pannonian-Balkan women on the way South (Belegis II-G?va, Fluted Ware Bulgaria, Knobbed Ware).
I wrote about the context of this sample and its relevance for E-V13 and South Eastern Urnfield here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page8?p=633773&viewfull=1#post633773

Typically he had a Neolithic or Bronze Age Southern haplogroup as well.

 

[Angela]

BR2 is an ancestor of Urnfield, related to G�va, he's being considered Kyjatice (even if not, genetically the individual is close), which is the sister group of G�va and had Channelled pottery too, so being part of the same South Eastern Urnfield complex. Kind of funny it peaks in Liguria and very Southern Italia. Quite fitting. It represents South Eastern Urnfielders before they mixed more heavily with the more Southern Pannonian-Balkan women on the way South (Belegis II-G�va, Fluted Ware Bulgaria, Knobbed Ware).
I wrote about the context of this sample and its relevance for E-V13 and South Eastern Urnfield here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page8?p=633773&viewfull=1#post633773

Typically he had a Neolithic or Bronze Age Southern haplogroup as well.

It peaks not only in Liguria, but also in Northwestern Tuscany, encompassing not only the Lunigiana and Garfagnana, but also Lucca and inland.

I remember seeing that he was also related to the French when the first results came out.

Anyway, as you can see, the ancestors of Rathlin went into Gaul, and then that Gaulish ancestry also went into the same area of Liguria and Northwest Tuscany via the 400 B.C. migrations. That migration is attested in the sudden appearance of new weapons in Liguria and the Lunigiana, as shown in the altering of our stone menhir.

[/IMG]

 

[Riverman]

It peaks not only in Liguria, but also in Northwestern Tuscany, encompassing not only the Lunigiana and Garfagnana, but also Lucca and inland.

I remember seeing that he was also related to the French when the first results came out.

Anyway, as you can see, the ancestors of Rathlin went into Gaul, and then that Gaulish ancestry also went into the same area of Liguria and Northwest Tuscany via the 400 B.C. migrations. That migration is attested in the sudden appearance of new weapons in Liguria and the Lunigiana, as shown in the altering of our stone menhir.

For E-V13 and that Kyjatice-related peak, one might consider the LBA and earlier IA too, especially Urnfield and Hallstatt. Something surely happened in between. The J-L283 sample from Slovenia is from the Unterkrainer group, which used the Illyrian burial rite and societal organisation. So the Illyrian : J-L283 connection being now confirmed. They also had Tumulus culture ancestry from the Rhenish-Alpine-Danubian sphere, those being represented by R-L2 and R-DF13, another I-Y3672.
Those being the Alpine-Middle Danubian Tumulus culture and Middle Danubian Urnfielders, Kyjatice-G?va is the South Eastern Urnfield group, with which they mixed at the Middle Danube, but they are separate units. Kyjatice and G?va had more of the earlier Epi-Corded and Neolithic influences, probably being also closer to Unetice.

 

[johen]

.

From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:

https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002

"Dating from between 900 and 800BC, the objects will go on show for the first time in Havering Hoard: A Bronze Age Mystery, at the Museum Of London Docklands."

More than 450 bronze objects, including weapons and tools, were unearthed.https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/...-bronze-age-treasure-goes-on-display-1744346/

late bronze age at Britain

The One That’s The Biggest

© WikiCommons
​

Isleham Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 1000 BC, Cambridgshire, England
The One That’s A Bit Woolly

© National Museums Scotland
​

St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
The One That Smells The Sweetest

© Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
​

Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England
The One With The Most Wheels (And Sea Shells!)

© British Museum
​

Heathery Burn, Late Bronze Age, 1000-750 BC, County Durham, England

https://digventures.com/st-neot/tim...bronze-age-hoards-ever-discovered-in-britain/

​

# compare traditional nomad 銅鍑:
https://t1.daumcdn.net/cafefile/pds66/6_cafe_2008_03_08_12_41_47d20adcb52ec

 

[Northener]

WERE THE OLD FRISII 'NORTH SEA CELTS' !?

Let me introduce to you: Aak. A nine year old boy. He lived in the iron age in nowadays Uitgeest, West-Friesland.


A few years ago they reconstructed him, because contrair to his old Frisian folk in IA he was not incremented, but buried in a Tumulus in some kind of holy place near a river. The remains have been found in the eighties.

Item Dutch national broadcasting news, a few years ago:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2015504-even-voorstellen-aak-een-jochie-uit-de-ijzertijd


But of course for some is this too 'romantic', these are the "data" :

I12907 R-S265*(xAMM490.2) Netherlands_IA 356-57 cal BCE (2160±30 BP, GrN 25639) Noord-Holland, Uitgeest-Dorregeest Netherlands 52.529 4.709

A line beneath Z156, according to R1b U106 Iain Mc Donald it's an subbranche associated with Tumulus/ Urnfield spread. Aak lived in the iron age. But during MBA/LBA his (probable) ancestors lived in the so called Hoogkarspel culture, part of Elp culture, which is a Tumulus/ Urnfield culture.


Wiki

The so-called Hoogkarspel culture is an important part of the Elp culture, a culture of the Bronze Age dating from approx. 1800-800 BC. In the 1960s remains were found of a tumulus behind the Hoogkarspel water tower, and remains of an agricultural settlement were discovered in the 1970s, dating from 1000 BC. Two periods are identified, Hoogkarspel-I (1400-1100 cal BC) and Hoogkarspel-II (800-400 cal BC).[2] Earthenware found in the area is divided into old and young, following the influential publication by R. W. Brandt in 1988.[3]

More about Aak's contemporary culture of iron age Frisians (in english):
https://collectie.huisvanhilde.nl/pdf/Koning_J_de_2003_Why_did_they_leave.pdf


These folks were more autosomal mort probably more "Celtic" like than "Germanic" like. Ok I took an old fashioned calculator (K36 eurogenes), but to some extent it wil do the job. I used some info from Maciamo (2014)

IA West Frisia
 
I12907 - R-S265*
Amerindian: 2.27%
Basque: 1.46%
Central Euro: 8.05%
East Central Euro: 2.51%
Eastern Euro: 2.90%
Fennoscandian: 15.60%
French: 3.67%
Iberian: 13.08%
Italian: 5.29%
North Atlantic: 16.36%
North Caucasian: 0.50%
North Sea: 25.88%
West Caucasian: 2.42%
 
vs
Modern North Dutch My Dad
Basque 2.48 Pct
Central_Euro 4.25 Pct
East_Balkan 4.76 Pct
East_Central_Euro 3.15 Pct
Eastern_Euro 5.71 Pct
Fennoscandian 13.34 Pct
French 6.78 Pct
Iberian 7.98 Pct
Italian 7.26 Pct
North_Atlantic 19.5 Pct
North_Sea 24.15 Pct
West_Caucasian 0.64 Pct
 
Modern North Dutch My Mom
Population
Basque 2.12 Pct
Central_Euro 7.03 Pct
East_Balkan 2.89 Pct
East_Central_Euro 9.53 Pct
Eastern_Euro 4.03 Pct
Fennoscandian 13.11 Pct
French 7.23 Pct
Iberian 7.25 Pct
Italian 5.16 Pct
North_Atlantic 18 Pct
North_Sea 21.88 Pct
West_Med 1.78 Pct

An add in the golden oldies sphere, K36 of the Hinxtons, done by Maciamo and Davidski long time ago, nevertheless the West Frisian IA sample is, because of his high Iberian, clearly on the Celtic side of the Hinxtons. He comes closer to Hinxton 1 and 4 regarding Iberian! Seen the modern result of for example Dad and Mom, I guess modern North Dutch are Anglo-Saxon like with an IA "Celtic like" substrate....his "Iberian" (and EEF component) is in the 'middle' (7/8%) between Anglo-Saxon Hinxton 2 (0%) and West Frisian IA (13%)!

Reich's publication is very much about an enhanced EEF ("Iberian" / K36) during BA/IA.

Hinxton 1 (Iron-age Celt, R1b-L21, K1a1b1b)
 
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.00% Armenian
0.18% Basque
0.00% Central_African
6.95% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
2.83% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.11% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
8.63% Eastern_Euro
7.28% Fennoscandian
7.69% French
20.20% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
5.01% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.09% North_African
18.73% North_Atlantic
1.49% North_Caucasian
20.11% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.71% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
0.00% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med
 
Hinxton 4 (Iron Age Celt, R1b-L21, H1ag1)
 
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.00% Armenian
1.01% Basque
0.00% Central_African
8.46% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.24% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
6.52% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
1.22% Eastern_Euro
12.00% Fennoscandian
10.18% French
18.53% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
5.53% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
19.48% North_Atlantic
3.90% North_Caucasian
12.92% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
0.00% West_Caucasian
0.01% West_Med
 
 
Hinxton 2 (Anglo-Saxon, H2a2b)
 
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.00% Armenian
2.78% Basque
0.00% Central_African
7.27% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.04% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
2.25% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
5.78% Eastern_Euro
10.38% Fennoscandian
5.66% French
0.01% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
10.57% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
24.92% North_Atlantic
0.00% North_Caucasian
27.69% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.74% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
1.90% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
0.00% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med
 
 
Hinxton 3 (Anglo-Saxon, mix?, K1a4a1a2)
 
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.01% Armenian
4.67% Basque
1.04% Central_African
8.10% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.25% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
0.18% Eastern_Euro
11.54% Fennoscandian
6.34% French
5.18% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
2.77% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.02% North_African
21.30% North_Atlantic
2.22% North_Caucasian
31.83% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
1.04% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.24% Volga-Ural
0.01% West_African
3.25% West_Caucasian
0.01% West_Med
 
Hinxton 5 (Anglo-Saxon, mix?, H2a2a)
 
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.00% Armenian
3.35% Basque
0.00% Central_African
6.27% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
3.06% East_Balkan
0.00% East_Central_Asian
6.16% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
3.65% Eastern_Euro
12.55% Fennoscandian
6.15% French
15.42% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
6.28% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.00% Near_Eastern
0.94% North_African
15.76% North_Atlantic
1.05% North_Caucasian
19.35% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
0.00% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med

Ok this genetics but we see the same in the case of language, old Frisian is just like old English, Germanic with a Celtic substrate.....

Jan de Koning and Menno Dijkstra (quote):


So the old Frisii were "North Sea Celts" !?

 

[kingjohn]

Interesting thanks for sharing
Sad:sadcry:
From what did he died that young ?

 

[Northener]

Interesting thanks for sharing
Sad:sadcry:
From what did he died that young ?

Welcome! That's still unclear he had no injuries seemed healthy. He was buried at a sacred placed, near a river....beneath a tumulus kind of exceptional. So stays enigmatic.....

 

[mwauthy]

Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

 

[kingjohn]

Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

i think than we going to see more I1 remains

p.s
it could be that altverd was wrong and maybe he missed other I1 cases
in the bam files who knows

 

[Flann Fina]

Disappointing so see only one I1 sample. I’ve read about widespread trading networks connecting Europe during the Bronze Age. However, there doesn’t appear to be any real gene flow out of Scandinavia into Britain until the Migration Period. Looking forward to the upcoming study on Anglo-Saxons to see if there is an appreciable difference in I1 gene flow into Britain between the Migration Period and the Viking Age.

Yes, it is a bit disappointing. Unfortunately, that’s the way it seems to go with I1. Personally, I wasn’t expecting very much for the Bronze Age, considering where they tested but the lack of IA samples was a little surprising to me. A lot will depend on where they sampled and when. So hopefully, we’ll still be able to learn something by seeing where I1 wasn’t during the time periods in question. Once the details are finally released.

 

[Duarte]

ok i will post altverd from anthrogenica work i count on him

6 - DF27 R1b1a1b1a1a2a
51 - U152 R1b1a1b1a1a2b (47 L2, 3 Z36, 1 Z56 / PF6601)
151 - L21 R1b1a1b1a1a2c
2 - DF19 R1b1a1b1a1a2e
238 - P312 R1b1a1b1a1a2
10 - U106
9 - R1a
4 - E1b1b1a1b1
19 - G2a2b2a
1 - H2
64 - I2 (51 - I2a1)
1 - I1
12 - J2 (1 J2a, 11 J2b)
1 - N1a1a1a1a1a1a

[FONT=&quot]‘The Atlantic Bronze Age could correspond to the period when DF27 radiated more evenly around Iberia and ended up, following Atlantic trade routes, all the way to the British Isles, the Netherlands and Scandinavia.’ By Maciamo in [/FONT]https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27

 

[MOESAN]

Halstatt expansion ? , was it phase 1 1000BC ( everybody likes to forget this phase ).... or phase 2, 800BC ................or is it 400 years a later under La Tene ?

If La Tene and Halstatt are the same people ? ......as they are over 400 years apart in time

maybe it was just plain old Southern-Germany celtish lands

or even celtish central-Germany from Glauberg

I think western Hallstatt is based on a foreign input from Hungary or around (1/4 of the elites seemed come from elsewhere, physically speaking) among already Celtised tribes; La Tène is a turn in geographical trade relations and maybe the result of complete assimilation of these "previous new" elites; kind of return to more ancient demic structures? Perhaps Hallstatt is responsible for the Qw- to P- change in Celtic (and elsewhere?); I know, I repeat myself!

apart this answer, more generally (you are not concerned) I think someones rely too much on schemes like "population replacement"; too often in history we see what seems the return of pop's structures considered as erased before. It cannot be everytime the result of new pop's which were by hazard very similar to ancient gone ones. What is not to say that in this very case, there are not been heavy changes in peopling of Britain around LBA/EIA.

 

[johen]

The One That’s A Bit Woolly

© National Museums Scotland
​

St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
The One That Smells The Sweetest

© Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
​

Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England

Hallstatte has also circle ring culture. As far as I am concerned, typical altai culture is circle ring (sun) culture, the circle ring means also snake like snake torc.

Hallstatte:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165

celtic in spain:

"Unfortunately, in China we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the Chemurchek culture. Kovalev, Erdenebaatar, Tishkin and Grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated Chemurchek stone boxes (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar 2014a; Tishkin et al. 2015). Such lead rings are typical for Elunino culture,which occupied the entire West Altai after 2400–2300 BCE (Tishkin et al. 2015)."

seima turbino shaman:

 

[Riverman]

I think western Hallstatt is based on a foreign input from Hungary or around (1/4 of the elites seemed come from elsewhere, physically speaking) among already Celtised tribes; La Tène is a turn in geographical trade relations and maybe the result of complete assimilation of these "previous new" elites; kind of return to more ancient demic structures? Perhaps Hallstatt is responsible for the Qw- to P- change in Celtic (and elsewhere?); I know, I repeat myself!

apart this answer, more generally (you are not concerned) I think someones rely too much on schemes like "population replacement"; too often in history we see what seems the return of pop's structures considered as erased before. It cannot be everytime the result of new pop's which were by hazard very similar to ancient gone ones. What is not to say that in this very case, there are not been heavy changes in peopling of Britain around LBA/EIA.

Hallstatt was mainly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi culture (Daco-Thracians). This is very evident in every respect, but especially in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere, the Fr?g and Kalenderberg group. Probably even some of the elites were of foreign descent. The line of communication was along the Danube:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

La Tene did profit from the Phoceans setting up their colony Massilia and its daughter colonies, which made them independent and gave the La Tene group direct access to the East Mediterranean world, instead of depending on the Eastern Hallstatt elites. This happened right when the Eastern group was severely crippled and almost completely destroyed, later transformed, by the Scythian and Thraco-Scythian incursions. These were very influential on La Tene too, but didn't weaken it as much, which gave the West, together with the Massilia trade port and Greek allies, decisive advantages. Things like trousers, animal style, horse cult, larger horse breeds and heavy cavalry spread from the East and formed the new Celtic world.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Hallstatt was mainly influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Basarabi culture (Daco-Thracians). This is very evident in every respect, but especially in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere, the Fr�g and Kalenderberg group. Probably even some of the elites were of foreign descent. The line of communication was along the Danube:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

La Tene did profit from the Phoceans setting up their colony Massilia and its daughter colonies, which made them independent and gave the La Tene group direct access to the East Mediterranean world, instead of depending on the Eastern Hallstatt elites. This happened right when the Eastern group was severely crippled and almost completely destroyed, later transformed, by the Scythian and Thraco-Scythian incursions. These were very influential on La Tene too, but didn't weaken it as much, which gave the West, together with the Massilia trade port and Greek allies, decisive advantages. Things like trousers, animal style, horse cult, larger horse breeds and heavy cavalry spread from the East and formed the new Celtic world.

what is the relation between La Tene and Gauls?

 

[Riverman]

what is the relation between La Tene and Gauls?

La Tene is the Gauls and La Tene is the only culture which can be clearly linked with the Celtic ethnicity, unlike Urnfield or Hallstatt, which had different archaeological groups and were most likely multi-ethnic. La Tene is THE classically Celtic culture. Hallstatt was not, not even for the Celtic parts of it, because La Tene was a cultural and social revolution, even in the Western Celtic territories, were old aristocratic upper classes and religious ideas were destroyed and replaced by new ones. Many associate that with Greek ideas, because in Greece there were at that time new social phenomenons and (democratic) ideas as well. Hallstatt was strictly hiearchic, most likely like a caste society and in some regions even different elements in the upper class than in the common populace.
We can also see that there were pockets of old Hallstatt groups, which seem to have been conquered, destroyed or assimilated by the La Tene Celts. So this was a very clear divide. Like in Central Germany, there was a whole belt of conservative Hallstatt cultural elements with huge fortifications. They were destroyed in a huge pincer movement of La Tene Celts and Jastorf Germanics. This is also when (proper) Celts and Germanics came in very direct contact the first time. The Northern part was taken by the Germanics, the Southern by the expanding La Tene Celts.