Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

[Angela]

I've rarely seen such a perfect example of a conclusion which doesn't flow logically in any way from the exposition.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What subclades? What are you even talking about? I have made a post that maybe E-V13 could be partly Italic given how spread it is in Italy, unlike in Iberia. Even though J2b has popped out but not E-V13 which make it extremely confusing.

Which old subclade are you even talking about? The Campanian study has over 100 samples, we will see if it is there.
I know that Goths did not bring all or even most of E-V13 in Italy, they were not numerous enough to do that.

When is the campanian study being released?

 

[kuzmosi]

Congratulations Riverman! Great work! Please allow to me, to show the results of my own research:

For the past 5 years I have collected every known E-V13-Z17107+ families. From YFULL, and from FtDNA E-CTS9320 and E-35 project. I made communication with everyone (if was possible) to gather the data I could get to know. According this Z17107 father lived 2400-3600 years ago. (average 2900 ybp)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

Many descending branches came from him.

The first and largest is the Y30991. Within this, - in the A24070 branch - the oldest (2800 years old) subdivision is a hungarian family: The Apro family from Hungary. His oldest known direct paternal line ancestors came from the northern parts of Old Hungary (today Slovakia) Then, from an 1850-year-old common ancestor, there are 1 Montenegrin, 2 Croatian, and 4 Bosnian families. In the other branch (Z38456) the oldest families (2300 years old) is two swedish family and a french. After that, (from an 1850 years old common father) we know 30 families today: (12 albanian (from Albania and Kosovo), 5 bulgarian, 3 greek, 3 from Italy, all from Sicily, 2 macedonian, 2 croatian, 2 serbian, 1 ukrainian. The oldest branches are therefore not Balkan, and even the Balkan branches are only 2300-1850 years old.

The second branch is mine, the A19247 branch. (I'm YF11315 on Yfull). The common ancestor of this branch lived 2400 years ago. In addition to an Albanian family in Tirana, there are Hungarian Küzmös and Szinetár families on this branch. The first known ancestor of the Küzmös's came from the village of Bárdháza, old Hungary (today: Barbovo in Transcarpathia in present-day Ukraine, near Mukacheve). The first known ancestor of Szinetár's came from 15 km to east from Barbovo: tthe village of Drágabártfalva, today: Dorobatovo.

The third subbranch of Z17107 is not on Yfull, only visible on the FtDNA BigY Block Tree. This is the FTA44339 subbranch. This branch consists of one family, the Hungarian Forgách family. His oldest known direct paternal line ancestors came from the northern parts of Old Hungary (today Slovakia) too, like the Apro ancestors.

The fourth son of Z17107 is Y196687. He is not on Yfull, only visible on the FtDNA BigY Block Tree. There is only one known family here, the Schepak family. I first tried to talk to the owner of the Schepak sample five years ago and now he’s responding at Christmas. His father was born in Temryuk, Russia, but the paternal ancestors of the family are from the foothills of the Carpathians, From the village of Baranya, (today Baranovo) which is in the territory of today's Transcarpathia in Ukraine and is part of the city of Uzhgorod. 40-50 km northwest of the place where my Küzmös ancestors came from.

There is also a branch that did not perform complete Y chromosome sequencing. All we know is that Z17107 +, but negative for all four subdivisions (Y30991, A19247, FTA44339, Y196687) So this is the fifth (Feduska) branch. Here too, we know only one family, The Feduska, from Dobromyl, a small village on the Ukrainian-Polish border, in the northern foothills of the northeastern Carpathians!!!!!

All this proves that the map you have drawn is perfectly true for the Z17107 subdivision. Two of the 5 subdivisions come from inside the line you drew in red, and 3 are very close to it, even from 2,900 years later. Probably the Piliny or Berkesz cultures, and later the Gáva. (Berkesz is 40 km north and Gava is 70 km west of the house where I still live today.)

But the whole truth is that we know 4 more families who don’t fit into the picture and form 3 more subdivisions. They did not perform complete Y chromosome sequencing. (like Feduska-branch) They are Z17107+, but negative for all known subdivision. All families with English names living in the US who do not know their European origins exactly. Johnson (Dublin, Ireland), Anderson (Pennslyvania), Smith (Indiana) and Elmore (North Carolina) families. Johnson and Anderson are close based on the STR results. They are the sixth (Johnson-Anderson) branch. With the seventh (Smith), and the eighth (Elmore) branch together we have a complete - at this time - knowledge of our ancestor Z17107, who lived 2900 years ago and currently know 8 descendants. There is no answer yet to the Anglo-Irish line, but the rest point to the Gava and even the former Berkesz, Piliny culture, all of which were Urnfield systems.

 

[kuzmosi]

And I almost forget, to mention the best-known Z17107 person: Gjergj Kastrioti, alias Skanderbeg. As a hungarian, I am infinitely proud to be related with him for 2400-2900 years. Our Y chr-s are almost the same. Skanderbeg was the ally of János Hunyadi, during the endless wars against the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Hawk]

Hello kuzmosi, people have suspected E-V13 to be related with Danubian Urnfield complex but it was Riverman who systematically laid out the theory at why he thinks so. Putting the reasons why. when and how.

Now, it's almost confirmed that this lineage grew up in size via the Urnfield network during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition.

 

[kuzmosi]

Hello Hawk!

I was only researching my own Z17107 subbranch, not the much larger CTS9320, or the whole V13 kinship, but based on that, I can say to Riverman: Touchdown!!!! Congratulations!!! I think the key word for spreading our paternal line is the art of bronze casting. Bronzes from Piliny and Berkesz cultures have even been found in Scandinavia and the Rhine valley.

 

[Riverman]

Hello Hawk!

I was only researching my own Z17107 subbranch, not the much larger CTS9320, or the whole V13 kinship, but based on that, I can say to Riverman: Touchdown!!!! Congratulations!!! I think the key word for spreading our paternal line is the art of bronze casting. Bronzes from Piliny and Berkesz cultures have even been found in Scandinavia and the Rhine valley.

Yes, they were the smiths of Bronze Age Europe and when they dispersed, they spread iron technology. Teleac had one of the first potential mass production of iron weapons in Europe. This post and maps might be interesting for you:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...lyrian)/page38?p=637423&viewfull=1#post637423

Look at the concentration of Reutlingen Naue II swords in the Upper Tisza region.

The Northern Channelled Ware groups in Transcarpathia are interesting because they declined the Thraco-Cimmerians access and kept a more traditional G?va type society when it no longer existed in most other regions, but was fused and transformed. However, they were eventually also integrated in larger networks and partly broken, which leaves up the question as to whether how much of the Northern E-V13 dates to survival of the Transcarpathian G?va, to later Bosut-Basarabi/Psenichevo related northward movement of Daco-Thracians from the south or even later Vlach migrations in Medieval times.
I guess all three did contribute lineages to the region, but its at this point difficult to sort things out, unless they have a very clear regional distribution back to the Bronze Age/EIA, like some of the subclades you mentioned might have. I would wish more people from Central and Eastern Europe would do their BigY. So far many don't and some even say they won't test on because they have not enough matches at the STR-level. But that way it won't move on to the next level forever, unfortunately.

 

[kingjohn]

This is good research:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497319301097

P.s
It didnt checked for snp e-v13 only
To e-m35 level
But with 27 y-str almost all of the e-m35
Are indeed e-v13 in negven
The few m35 haplotypes who are not ev13
Are : e-m81, e-m34>z841, e-v22 , e-v12> cts693

 

[Angela]

Not surprised.

[h=2]"Abstract[/h]A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey."

The term Balkanization means something, although it seems extraordinary to me that people can live side by side like this without mingling. It's not what happens in the U.S., but it's also not what happened with the Arbereshe in Southern Italy.

 

[Hawk]

Albos from Macedonia showed high E-V13 percentage ~35% ( just confirming older studies) by this peer reviewed study, but Macedonians seem to have high E-V13 as well, like ~20%, the title just showed the 1st Y-DNA with highest percentage present, the only Y-DNA which shows high percentages more than ~50% in the Balkans is Y-DNA I2a among Herzegovinians and to a degree Croats/Bosnians.

Other Y-DNA present among Albanians in Macedonia are R1b-Z2103(~18%) and J2b2-L283 (~14%).

 

[Riverman]

Not surprised.

[h=2]"Abstract[/h]A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey."

The term Balkanization means something, although it seems extraordinary to me that people can live side by side like this without mingling. It's not what happens in the U.S., but it's also not what happened with the Arbereshe in Southern Italy.

The isolation depends on cultural distance, ethnicity with language and religion.
If those three being combined, the chance for gene flow get lower.
Religion is usually the most important single factor.

Some Bulgarian regions reach the same level of E-V13 as do Albanians in Macedonia.

I get more and more curious as to where most of the R-Z2103 comes from in Albanians. It came with Yamnaya into Pannonia, the Central Balkans and Thrace, it might have been associated with Greek-Armenian too, but details are nebulous for potential other associations.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The isolation depends on cultural distance, ethnicity with language and religion.
If those three being combined, the chance for gene flow get lower.
Religion is usually the most important single factor.
Some Bulgarian regions reach the same level of E-V13 as do Albanians in Macedonia.
I get more and more curious as to where most of the R-Z2103 comes from in Albanians. It came with Yamnaya into Pannonia, the Central Balkans and Thrace, it might have been associated with Greek-Armenian too, but details are nebulous for potential other associations.

R1b z2103 is the true marker of proto illyrians

 

[Riverman]

R1b z2103 is the true marker of proto illyrians

So far the association with J-L283 with Illyrians and E-V13 with Thracians seems to be more safe than for R-Z2103 in the Central Balkans imho. But we'll see.
Also, from my personal impression R-Z2103 seems to be not closer associated with J-L283 than E-V13 in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, but that's debatable like many things I guess, especially since all three might have been together in the Maros and neighbouring groups at some point already. .

 

[enter_tain]

So far the association with J-L283 with Illyrians and E-V13 with Thracians seems to be more safe than for R-Z2103 in the Central Balkans imho. But we'll see.
Also, from my personal impression R-Z2103 seems to be not closer associated with J-L283 than E-V13 in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, but that's debatable like many things I guess, especially since all three might have been together in the Maros and neighbouring groups at some point already. .

Stop embarrassing yourself. You're turning into a joke.

The Bronze/Age Iron Balkans had more than 1 Y-DNA/region.

 

[Riverman]

Stop embarrassing yourself. You're turning into a joke.

The Bronze/Age Iron Balkans had more than 1 Y-DNA/region.

I know that, but it had a couple of founder effects in the later Bronze Age period, because otherwise the distribution and frequencies wouldn't look like they do. Many of the Bronze Age lineages being largely replaced either completely or in specific regions.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

So far the association with J-L283 with Illyrians and E-V13 with Thracians seems to be more safe than for R-Z2103 in the Central Balkans imho. But we'll see.
Also, from my personal impression R-Z2103 seems to be not closer associated with J-L283 than E-V13 in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, but that's debatable like many things I guess, especially since all three might have been together in the Maros and neighbouring groups at some point already. .

I was mostly pointing out that r1b z2103 likely gave illyrians their indo european language - but probably other paleo south european people too before diverging. We can only wait and see for more samples, but right now it makes most sense (to me anyway)

 

[kingjohn]

Albos from Macedonia showed high E-V13 percentage ~35% ( just confirming older studies) by this peer reviewed study, but Macedonians seem to have high E-V13 as well, like ~20%, the title just showed the 1st Y-DNA with highest percentage present, the only Y-DNA which shows high percentages more than ~50% in the Balkans is Y-DNA I2a among Herzegovinians and to a degree Croats/Bosnians.

Other Y-DNA present among Albanians in Macedonia are R1b-Z2103(~18%) and J2b2-L283 (~14%).

more like 14-15% which is also significant % either way
i say this because some of the e-m35 haplotypes look (non e-v13) when i ran them in negven :

north macedonians
1 look e-m81
2 look e-v22
2 look e-m34>-z841
2 look e-v12>ct693
1 look e-L618>BY28614


p.s
but negven can be wrong( although it it is very good)

 

[Hawk]

more like 14-15% which is also significant % either way
i say this because some of the e-m35 haplotypes look (non e-v13) when i ran them in negven :

north macedonians
1 look e-m81
2 look e-v22
2 look e-m34>-z841
2 look e-v12>ct693
1 look e-L618>BY28614


p.s
but negven can be wrong( although it it is very good)

Ah, alright. I think i saw in anthrogenica in the thread summing up from various studies to ~20%, but a range from 14-20% is acceptable margin.

 

[kingjohn]

Ah, alright. I think i saw in anthrogenica in the thread summing up from various studies to ~20%, but a range from 14-20% is acceptable margin.

yes
and among albanians from north macedonia
from this study
the (non e-v13 ) according to negven are :

albanian -102 samples


north macedonian (albanian) -e-z841( likely e-by45411)

north macedonian (albanian)- e-m81

north macedonian (albanian)- e-v68 (not sure)

north macedonian albanian- e-v12>cts693

north macedonian (albanian)- e-pf1975 (not sure)

north maceonian (albanian)- e-m81

north macedonian (albanian)-e-v1515>ph-1818 or e-z841 (not sure)

north macedonian(albanian)-e-z841(likely e-y4972)




p.s

some of them i not sure to confusing even for negven lol
that still leave us with something like 30% e-v13 thats still pretty huge
i need to check again
but from what i remember
the e-m35 haplotypes among turkish macedonians in this study
are all e-v13 not even one (non e-v13 type)

 

[kingjohn]

1160-1214Ad remain from
Berlin
https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(22)00059-X/fulltext#sec0060
Individual 3443.1 was e-v13