Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

New interesting V13 results from Croatia. From Pribislav (also poreklo admin)

R3745; 23-121 AD; Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y30976>Y99739>BY66293

R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>BY4642>Z38334* (xBY4710,BY4715,Z37883)

Y30977 in Liburnian area 1st century AD.
Firstly Y30977 is an old and mostly Western Balkan branch that I used to connect with Cetina culture. This sort of result could give some support in that direction. I used to think of maybe some Nyirseg-Cetina connection, but I couldn't find any direct evidence for that archeologically. But Nyirseg was part of the Vucedol complex which encompassed the subsequent Cetina area.

Ofc I need to take a look at this site, who these people were in Roman times already.

Other main point is that Liburnians were also linguistically Venetian and Urnfield related, so this find could be related to that as well.

It could be a newer arrival in IA or even Roman age.. Parallel clade with MBA TMRCA was found in Avars recently. It was clearly of Byzantine origin, not only due to the very Southern autosomal profile but also due to Byzantine gear found there.

Basal Z5017 clade find is from near Zagreb, N.Croatia, Pannonia, it is newer (3rd-4th century) could be Roman, IA or Urnfield (less likely) related.
 
I expect E-V13 in Veneti and related people, more so than in Illyrians proper, especially in the regions not as much touched by Channelled Ware and the Thraco-Cimmerians. Both happened for Central Dalmatia/Liburnians and Veneti.
While the second is younger, its probably more interesting for the E-V13 in Illyrians debate.
 
Riverman said:
I expect E-V13 in Veneti and related people, more so than in Illyrians proper, especially in the regions not as much touched by Channelled Ware and the Thraco-Cimmerians. Both happened for Central Dalmatia/Liburnians and Veneti.
While the second is younger, its probably more interesting for the E-V13 in Illyrians debate.
Click to expand...


modern ftdna projects for all of north italy have as a percentage ( 90 plus people ) ...........24% E-V13 , 3% E-V22 and the remainder as E-M35 ( xE-V13 ) ................ancient times we expect the Liburnians who controlled the whole of the Adriatic with their fleet to be trading and moving some people from one place to another ............the Delmatae and Histrians far less so .............
 
Oroku Saki said:
New interesting V13 results from Croatia. From Pribislav (also poreklo admin)

R3745; 23-121 AD; Zadar_Hypo_banka, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>Y30977>Y30976>Y99739>BY66293

R3659; 249-378 AD; Scitarjevo, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5017>BY4642>Z38334* (xBY4710,BY4715,Z37883)

Y30977 in Liburnian area 1st century AD.
Firstly Y30977 is an old and mostly Western Balkan branch that I used to connect with Cetina culture. This sort of result could give some support in that direction. I used to think of maybe some Nyirseg-Cetina connection, but I couldn't find any direct evidence for that archeologically. But Nyirseg was part of the Vucedol complex which encompassed the subsequent Cetina area.

Ofc I need to take a look at this site, who these people were in Roman times already.

Other main point is that Liburnians were also linguistically Venetian and Urnfield related, so this find could be related to that as well.

It could be a newer arrival in IA or even Roman age.. Parallel clade with MBA TMRCA was found in Avars recently. It was clearly of Byzantine origin, not only due to the very Southern autosomal profile but also due to Byzantine gear found there.

Basal Z5017 clade find is from near Zagreb, N.Croatia, Pannonia, it is newer (3rd-4th century) could be Roman, IA or Urnfield (less likely) related.
Click to expand...


While linguistically the Venetic and Liburni are linked .............the Romans never linked them, they linked the Venetic and the Histrians into one region ( number 10 )

Liburnian samples in majority ( not including their colonies in Italy and Corfu ) are centred around ( look at BC times below )

 
source paper :

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247






I10166-300MKD_AncIsar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest NecropolisNorth Macedonia41,2822,491,56%E-L618..
I20185-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3376,23%E-BY3880H7c1
I19494-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,333,15%E-L618H7c1
I20183-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3369,57%E-BY3880T2+16189
I19490-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,334,33%E-M78H13a1a1
I20181-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3373,65%E-CTS1273U8b1a1
I20180-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3368,74%E-BY3880K1c1
I19495-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,331,33%E-L618H55+153
I19487-800BGR_Svilengrad_IASvilengrad ( Haskovo)Bulgaria41,7726,21,89%E-M78H13b1+200
I18792400BGR_RomByzBoyanovoBulgaria42,28126,6342511,81%E-V13H14b


I1950-250BGR_AncRozovo (Central, Stara Zagora, Kazanlak)Bulgaria42,5625,4138,38%E-BY14160HV9

I5724-282HRV_IASv. Križ BrdovečkiCroatia45,90083315,70028858,71%E-Y16721U5b1d1a

I8367600TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A_brother.I8366Basilica (Marmara, Iznik)Turkey40,4229,7145,31%E-V13T2g1
I8366600TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_ABasilica (Marmara, Iznik)Turkey40,4229,7171,10%E-Y30977T2g1
 
Is there a variance map for EV13? I'd say that's more important than frequency.

Frequency can be achieved in a matter of generations for small populations.
 
kingjohn said:
source paper :

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247






I10166-300MKD_AncIsar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest NecropolisNorth Macedonia41,2822,491,56%E-L618..
I20185-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3376,23%E-BY3880H7c1
I19494-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,333,15%E-L618H7c1
I20183-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3369,57%E-BY3880T2+16189
I19490-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,334,33%E-M78H13a1a1
I20181-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3373,65%E-CTS1273U8b1a1
I20180-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,3368,74%E-BY3880K1c1
I19495-800BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IAKapitan Andreevo (South)Bulgaria41,7326,331,33%E-L618H55+153
I19487-800BGR_Svilengrad_IASvilengrad ( Haskovo)Bulgaria41,7726,21,89%E-M78H13b1+200
I18792400BGR_RomByzBoyanovoBulgaria42,28126,6342511,81%E-V13H14b


I1950-250BGR_AncRozovo (Central, Stara Zagora, Kazanlak)Bulgaria42,5625,4138,38%E-BY14160HV9
I5724-282HRV_IASv. Križ BrdovečkiCroatia45,90083315,70028858,71%E-Y16721U5b1d1a

I8367600TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A_brother.I8366Basilica (Marmara, Iznik)Turkey40,4229,7145,31%E-V13T2g1
I8366600TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_ABasilica (Marmara, Iznik)Turkey40,4229,7171,10%E-Y30977T2g1
Click to expand...


So we have EV-13 sample found among Illyrians and in North Macedonia ? Confirms it was obviously not all of it spread in the Western Balkans or Greece by classical Thracians but possibly also gained a high frequency in the Western Balkans from a founder / bottle neck effect ?
 
Angela said:
Not surprised.

"Abstract

A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey."

The term Balkanization means something, although it seems extraordinary to me that people can live side by side like this without mingling. It's not what happens in the U.S., but it's also not what happened with the Arbereshe in Southern Italy.
Click to expand...


Yet Slavs from Macedonia show high IBD sharing with Albanian populations based on DNA studies.
 
This obsession with Y-DNA frequency is so offputting. Y-DNA frequency varies massively amongst Albanians. In some places EV13 is the highest. In some J2B2. In some R1b. It doesn't really mean anything. Autosomally they're almost identical and have extremely high IBD.
 
enter_tain said:
This obsession with Y-DNA frequency is so offputting. Y-DNA frequency varies massively amongst Albanians. In some places EV13 is the highest. In some J2B2. In some R1b. It doesn't really mean anything. Autosomally they're almost identical and have extremely high IBD.
Click to expand...

Obviously autosomal DNA and uniparentals are two different things. I mean most of my relatives are R-L51 haplogroup members. It's like a surname, people can have an exotic surname for their region, but all their other surnames are more typical and vice versa. The autosomal make up reflects the total ancestry, the uniparentals just the direct line, which might be a deviation from the rest. But doesn't matter, when it gets about statistics, they get relevant, because they prove the patrilinear descendance of whole people. And of course its interesting to trace the direct lineage back, which can be done much easier, much further back in time than with autosomal DNA.
 
He wouldn't be saying that if Illyrians were 33% E-V13, none of his ilk would. Instead so far Illyrians are something like 5% E-V13, though it's really zero since almost all is Roman era, or the Sava river region(frontier region). So he has to talk to that way, like a beggar(look there is a E-V13 under that rock) pointing out at some Roman population shuffling as proof and at the same time arguing it does not even matter because haplgroups are lottery games.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
He wouldn't be saying that if Illyrians were 33% E-V13, none of his ilk would. Instead so far Illyrians are something like 5% E-V13, though it's really zero since almost all is Roman era, or the Sava river region(frontier region). So he has to talk to that way, like a beggar(look there is a E-V13 under that rock) pointing out at some Roman population shuffling as proof and at the same time arguing it does not even matter because haplgroups are lottery games.
Click to expand...

Most of it is actually before Roman era from what I know. What would it change if it was Roman era. It's still Illyrian.

Only pseudo intellectuals could possibly believe EV-13 in the Balkans spread post-Roman era. It is something that is impossible.
 
1337_ said:
Most of it is actually before Roman era from what I know. What would it change if it was Roman era. It's still Illyrian.

Only pseudo intellectuals could possibly believe EV-13 in the Balkans spread post-Roman era. It is something that is impossible.
Click to expand...

They are all Roman except the one lone Slavonian sample from the frontiers of Sava river. Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm challenging you retard.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
He wouldn't be saying that if Illyrians were 33% E-V13, none of his ilk would. Instead so far Illyrians are something like 5% E-V13, though it's really zero since almost all is Roman era, or the Sava river region(frontier region). So he has to talk to that way, like a beggar(look there is a E-V13 under that rock) pointing out at some Roman population shuffling as proof and at the same time arguing it does not even matter because haplgroups are lottery games.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand how Y-DNA works. It could literally takes 1 person to completely change the landscape of a population's Y-DNA in a few hundred years.

If 1 single foreigner moves to another country and has 3 kids, and those kids have 3 kids, in 500 years/20 generations, that's a hypothetical 3 billion+ descendants, of which a huge portion could be direct patrilineal descendants. And I'm being conservative when I say "3 kids", since people back then were practically shitting out children. Obviously, this is just hypothetical, but it just shows how a few hundred years could change things drastically.

Yamnaya was overwhelmingly Z2103 and overnight it became L51. Illyrians were an IE people and had massive amounts of J2 which still hasn't been found anywhere in the Neolithic/EBA.

This is why we talk of "variance" and not just frequency. High frequency can be achieved rapidly. Variance can't be made up in a few hundred years.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
They are all Roman except the one lone Slavonian sample from the frontiers of Sava river. Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm challenging you retard.
Click to expand...

"Roman" is not an ethnicity, unless you're from Rome.
 
enter_tain said:
I don't think you understand how Y-DNA works. It could literally takes 1 person to completely change the landscape of a population's Y-DNA in a few hundred years.

If 1 single foreigner moves to another country and has 3 kids, and those kids have 3 kids, in 500 years/20 generations, that's a hypothetical 3 billion+ descendants, of which a huge portion could be direct patrilineal descendants. And I'm being conservative when I say "3 kids", since people back then were practically shitting out children. Obviously, this is just hypothetical, but it just shows how a few hundred years could change things drastically.

Yamnaya was overwhelmingly Z2103 and overnight it became L51. Illyrians were an IE people and had massive amounts of J2 which still hasn't been found anywhere in the Neolithic/EBA.

This is why we talk of "variance" and not just frequency. High frequency can be achieved rapidly. Variance can't be made up in a few hundred years.
Click to expand...

This is comedy, no one is going to take any advice from you, so relax kid with the lengthy essays. "Albanians could have been I2a-Dinaric, it's just that the Goddess of chance didn't struck at the right time, but it could have done that......."

Go home kid.
 
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