Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

[enter_tain]

This is comedy, no one is going to take any advice from you, so relax kid with the lengthy essays. "Albanians could have been I2a-Dinaric, it's just that the Goddess of chance didn't struck at the right time, but it could have done that......."

Go home kid.

Seriously, do some basic research before running off at the mouth (or keyboard). You have 0 clue how Y-DNA works. Rrenjet has mapped this out and pretty much states 10% of all northern Albanians are from EV-13/Berisha line from 500 years ago.

"E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102 është një ndër linjat atërore më të përhapura ndër gegë, sidomos në Kosovë dhe pjesën më veriore të Shqipërisë. Rezultatet nga fisi Berishë i takojnë kryesisht degëzimit E-Y93102>Y91573, paraardhësi i të cilës vlerësohet të ketë jetuar para rreth 500 vitesh."
"sot përbën rreth 2-3% të gjithë linjave atërore shqiptare, por në Pukë, Tropojë, Kosovë e Luginë të Preshevës mbërrin deri në 10%, kurse në krahinat e tjera shqiptare është nën 1%.



That's literally 1 EV-13 guy that lived 500 years ago, and his Y-DNA reaches 10% of all Y-DNAs in all major regions.

 

[Riverman]

The diversity in most regions in which E-V13 is well-represented is much too high for a Roman era dispersal. What's also against the Roman expansion is that E-V13 dropped to the ground, having its worst time when the Romans conquered Dacia and crushed the revolts in the Balkans. There is no evidence whatsoever for E-V13 having a great expansion in the Roman era. Only a limited redistribution, but that doesn't account for the majority of E-V13 subclades and members in Europe and beyond.
Probably there will be some more evidence for a dispersal in the Roman era, eventually, but looking at the current gap, it won't ever be the biggest part of the modern E-V13 distribution.

One of the biggest issues of E-V13 is the same as with the early Germanics and Slavs: Cremation, plus the lack of relevant cultural groups being tested, like Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, G?va (including Lapus II, Holigrady, Belegis II-G?va), Mezocsat (Thraco-Cimmerians) into Eastern Vekerzug (Western Vekerzug was mixed, we already got E-V13 there from the pre-Roman period!), Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi, Ferigile, historical Dacians.
For now we have the South Eastern Thracians, Psenichevo derived, same group from Channelled Ware into Stamped Pottery as Babadag and Basarabi.

In Albania we will see whether already Channelled Ware brought E-V13, rather Basarabi or later movements.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Seriously, do some basic research before running off at the mouth (or keyboard). You have 0 clue how Y-DNA works. Rrenjet has mapped this out and pretty much states 10% of all northern Albanians are from EV-13/Berisha line from 500 years ago.

"E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102 është një ndër linjat atërore më të përhapura ndër gegë, sidomos në Kosovë dhe pjesën më veriore të Shqipërisë. Rezultatet nga fisi Berishë i takojnë kryesisht degëzimit E-Y93102>Y91573, paraardhësi i të cilës vlerësohet të ketë jetuar para rreth 500 vitesh."
"sot përbën rreth 2-3% të gjithë linjave atërore shqiptare, por në Pukë, Tropojë, Kosovë e Luginë të Preshevës mbërrin deri në 10%, kurse në krahinat e tjera shqiptare është nën 1%.

That's literally 1 EV-13 guy that lived 500 years ago, and his Y-DNA reaches 10% of all Y-DNAs in all major regions.

You are proving the expansions of Albanians, with a Albanian haplogroup.

 

[enter_tain]

You are proving the expansions of Albanians, with a Albanian haplogroup.

I'm proving the expansions of Albanians recently, because you're crying about Illyrians thousand of years ago.

The issue is you don't understand that Y-DNA frequency changes over hundreds of years drastically, let alone thousands of years.

 

[enter_tain]

The diversity in most regions in which E-V13 is well-represented is much too high for a Roman era dispersal. What's also against the Roman expansion is that E-V13 dropped to the ground, having its worst time when the Romans conquered Dacia and crushed the revolts in the Balkans. There is no evidence whatsoever for E-V13 having a great expansion in the Roman era. Only a limited redistribution, but that doesn't account for the majority of E-V13 subclades and members in Europe and beyond.
Probably there will be some more evidence for a dispersal in the Roman era, eventually, but looking at the current gap, it won't ever be the biggest part of the modern E-V13 distribution.

One of the biggest issues of E-V13 is the same as with the early Germanics and Slavs: Cremation, plus the lack of relevant cultural groups being tested, like Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, G�va (including Lapus II, Holigrady, Belegis II-G�va), Mezocsat (Thraco-Cimmerians) into Eastern Vekerzug (Western Vekerzug was mixed, we already got E-V13 there from the pre-Roman period!), Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi, Ferigile, historical Dacians.
For now we have the South Eastern Thracians, Psenichevo derived, same group from Channelled Ware into Stamped Pottery as Babadag and Basarabi.

In Albania we will see whether already Channelled Ware brought E-V13, rather Basarabi or later movements.

The issue here is EV-13 has many different branches, just like any other group. It has enough diversity. To expect all branches to have the same origin and point of origin is absurd.

This fixation on 1 group of people owning a haplogroup has to end. It's anti-scientific and straight up wrong.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The diversity in most regions in which E-V13 is well-represented is much too high for a Roman era dispersal. What's also against the Roman expansion is that E-V13 dropped to the ground, having its worst time when the Romans conquered Dacia and crushed the revolts in the Balkans. There is no evidence whatsoever for E-V13 having a great expansion in the Roman era. Only a limited redistribution, but that doesn't account for the majority of E-V13 subclades and members in Europe and beyond.
Probably there will be some more evidence for a dispersal in the Roman era, eventually, but looking at the current gap, it won't ever be the biggest part of the modern E-V13 distribution.

One of the biggest issues of E-V13 is the same as with the early Germanics and Slavs: Cremation, plus the lack of relevant cultural groups being tested, like Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, G�va (including Lapus II, Holigrady, Belegis II-G�va), Mezocsat (Thraco-Cimmerians) into Eastern Vekerzug (Western Vekerzug was mixed, we already got E-V13 there from the pre-Roman period!), Babadag, Bosut-Basarabi, Ferigile, historical Dacians.
For now we have the South Eastern Thracians, Psenichevo derived, same group from Channelled Ware into Stamped Pottery as Babadag and Basarabi.

In Albania we will see whether already Channelled Ware brought E-V13, rather Basarabi or later movements.

Roman Croatia shows 3 E-V13 vs 2 J2b (in Montenegro), that's sus. It is irrelevant if E-V13 was being suppressed in it's core regions, just as it is irrelevant if J2b was suppressed in it's homeland as well, it's exiled members are showing up in Roman Moesia.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I'm proving the expansions of Albanians recently, because you're crying about Illyrians thousand of years ago.

The issue is you don't understand that Y-DNA frequency changes over hundreds of years drastically, let alone thousands of years.

No kid, you're chasing your tail. Why is Berisha not R1a, N1c, Q1e, etc....? Why it happened to be a E-V13 and not something else?
Because they were Albanian.

 

[eupator]

"Roman" is not an ethnicity, unless you're from Rome.

It's not an ethnicity now but it used to be one all the way up to the 20th century.

 

[Riverman]

The issue here is EV-13 has many different branches, just like any other group. It has enough diversity. To expect all branches to have the same origin and point of origin is absurd.

This fixation on 1 group of people owning a haplogroup has to end. It's anti-scientific and straight up wrong.

There are clear indications for up to which point in time the E-V13 lineages lived, by and large, together, in one united population and ethnicity. That's the TMRCA of the major branches, their splits and branching events. These two vary by major clades, but for the bulk of all E-V13, we can say that they lived together up to the Transitional Period, up to about 1.300-900 BC. And this is the Proto-Thracian period. So all E-V13 or at least more than 90 % were still Thracians at the dawn of the Iron Age.
After that, we can clearly see that down to the lower subclade levels they split up into different groups and ethnicities. But up to the Transitional Period, this was one people and population. No doubt about that. The symmetric spread of the E-V13 subclades and their common timing speaks for itself. It was one big expansion horizon with Channelled Ware into the Thraco-Cimmerian and Stamped Pottery groups (Bosut-Basarabi, Psenichevo, Babadag).

From about 1.000 BC onwards you find them - probably, in Illyrians, Paeonians, Greeks, Celts, Scythians, Philistines etc. also. But before the Transitional Period: One united population which can be equated with Proto-Thracian.

 

[MOESAN]

Y-haplo's %'s have not big value for long term links, but they still signify something for shorter bits of time (at least clannic system can be in play beside hazard).
E-V13 is surely older than Roman period, maybe last mesolithic/early neolithic, somewhere between Pelopponese and Central Eastern Adriatic shores, but its "explosion" came very later, say about LBA/EIA and elsewhere in Balkans.

 

[enter_tain]

No kid, you're chasing your tail. Why is Berisha not R1a, N1c, Q1e, etc....? Why it happened to be a E-V13 and not something else?
Because they were Albanian.

Wtf are you going on about? Greeks are on average the same EV13 as Albanians. Are they Albanians too? EV13's popularity goes beyond Albanians, to Greek/Slavs, etc... There are plenty of lineages that could have arisen. J2a, J1, T, G, etc... EV13 was the winner because there's always a winner.

Some of your brains still can't wrap your head around the fact that every lineage starts with 1 person. R1b was 1 guy. EV13 was 1 guy. J2B2 was 1 guy. And they can achieve drastically different population distribution that the original. That's what founder effects are.

Albanians were a small population that was highly clan based. Literally 1 guy 500 years ago that was EV13 spread his line to 10% of some major regions. That's how drastically things change with Y-DNA.

 

[ihype02]

Target: Albanian Distance: 2.1890% / 0.02188955
53.0	BGR_IA
24.6	Polish
22.4	ALB_Çinamak_Anc

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Wtf are you going on about? Greeks are on average the same EV13 as Albanians. Are they Albanians too? EV13's popularity goes beyond Albanians, to Greek/Slavs, etc... There are plenty of lineages that could have arisen. J2a, J1, T, G, etc... EV13 was the winner because there's always a winner.

Some of your brains still can't wrap your head around the fact that every lineage starts with 1 person. R1b was 1 guy. EV13 was 1 guy. J2B2 was 1 guy. And they can achieve drastically different population distribution that the original. That's what founder effects are.

Albanians were a small population that was highly clan based. Literally 1 guy 500 years ago that was EV13 spread his line to 10% of some major regions. That's how drastically things change with Y-DNA.

Greek E-V13 is Thracian, Vlach and Albanian, there is no continuity, the Greeks in this forum are coming to that conclusion, have fun talking them out of reality to suit your wet dreams.

Your point about Berisha is mute, the only true loser that suffered from the Ottoman invasions is R-Z2103. But that void was not only filled by Berisha and other obscure E-V13 clans, J2b clans also benefited from Ottoman scorch earth policy. J2b were anasi status pre-Ottoman times, after the chaos they came out as major tribes. Hoti is a good example. The anasi in Hoti are E-V13(these would represent the Hoti recorded by Venice in the 1300s), after the Ottoman scorch earth, the J2b(former anasi) turn the E-V13 into anasi/subjugated 2nd tier tribe. Overall its a mute argument and a dumb one because as my example shows, these J2b and E-V13 mushroom events balance themselves out.

There is a argument that R-Z2103 has lost some of it's representation with time but its major role has not disappeared as can happen in your proposed fictional lottery games.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Target: Albanian Distance: 2.1890% / 0.02188955
53.0	BGR_IA
24.6	Polish
22.4	ALB_Çinamak_Anc

And that model is with a BGR IA sample that are south-east Thracian, that's like using north Croatian Illyrian instead of Cinamak for Illyrian substrate.

 

[enter_tain]

Greek E-V13 is Thracian, Vlach and Albanian, there is no continuity, the Greeks in this forum are coming to that conclusion, have fun talking them out of reality to suit your wet dreams.

Your point about Berisha is mute, the only true loser that suffered from the Ottoman invasions is R-Z2103. But that void was not only filled by Berisha and other obscure E-V13 clans, J2b clans also benefited from Ottoman scorch earth policy. J2b were anasi status pre-Ottoman times, after the chaos they came out as major tribes. Hoti is a good example. The anasi in Hoti are E-V13(these would represent the Hoti recorded by Venice in the 1300s), after the Ottoman scorch earth, the J2b(former anasi) turn the E-V13 into anasi/subjugated 2nd tier tribe. Overall its a mute argument and a dumb one because as my example shows, these J2b and E-V13 mushroom events balance themselves out.

There is a argument that R-Z2103 has lost some of it's representation with time but its major role has not disappeared as can happen in your proposed fictional lottery games.

Greek EV13 is a quarter (or a third in some regions) of their Y-DNAs. How many of their vocabulary is Thracian? -5% or -20%?

You have brain rot to the point where you don't realize there was a pan-Balkanian spread of this lineage in Medieval and Post-Medieval times that has nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever the **** else you're coming up when you're snorting whatever you're snorting.

You talking about "Illyrians" when there 0 samples of EV13 in either Medieval/Post-Medieval Albania or Greece.

 

[Illyria]

Greek E-V13 is Thracian, Vlach and Albanian, there is no continuity, the Greeks in this forum are coming to that conclusion, have fun talking them out of reality to suit your wet dreams.

Your point about Berisha is mute, the only true loser that suffered from the Ottoman invasions is R-Z2103. But that void was not only filled by Berisha and other obscure E-V13 clans, J2b clans also benefited from Ottoman scorch earth policy. J2b were anasi status pre-Ottoman times, after the chaos they came out as major tribes. Hoti is a good example. The anasi in Hoti are E-V13(these would represent the Hoti recorded by Venice in the 1300s), after the Ottoman scorch earth, the J2b(former anasi) turn the E-V13 into anasi/subjugated 2nd tier tribe. Overall its a mute argument and a dumb one because as my example shows, these J2b and E-V13 mushroom events balance themselves out.

There is a argument that R-Z2103 has lost some of it's representation with time but its major role has not disappeared as can happen in your proposed fictional lottery games.

There are E-V13 lines that Greeks and Vlachs are under that have an older origin clade in Albanians, from Arvanites & Ancient Proto-Albanians. Same with R-Z2103.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Greek EV13 is a quarter (or a third in some regions) of their Y-DNAs. How many of their vocabulary is Thracian? -5% or -20%?

You have brain rot to the point where you don't realize there was a pan-Balkanian spread of this lineage in Medieval and Post-Medieval times that has nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever the **** else you're coming up when you're snorting whatever you're snorting.

You talking about "Illyrians" when there 0 samples of EV13 in either Medieval/Post-Medieval Albania or Greece.

I didn't say Thracians came in as tribes into Greece. First they trickled in as migrants in classical Greece and Roman times. Then many Romanized and Hellenized Thracians took shelter in Greece during the Slavic migrations. They didn't come in as compact groups with their IA traditions intact, speaking Thracian, they came in as rootless Roman citizens. Vlach and Albanians are the booster shots of E-V13.

You talking about "Illyrians" when there 0 samples of EV13 in either Medieval/Post-Medieval Albania or Greece.

Low IQ moron, which Montenegrin tribe of Albanian origin has been shown to not be E-V13? Almost all of these old pastoral Albanian tribes in Montenegro and Herzegovania are linked to E-V13, a few R1b. Not a single one is linked to L283-Z638. Cope with that little twerp.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There are E-V13 lines that Greeks and Vlachs are under that have an older origin clade in Albanians, from Arvanites & Ancient Proto-Albanians. Same with R-Z2103.

If you want a good estimate of Greek E-V13 that's of Albanian origin, just take out the Albanian R-Z2103 as a percentage of total Greek Y-DNA, and multiply it by 1.7, that yields a safe number.

 

[Riverman]

Thracians are likely to have migrated as tribals. Don't forget that much of what is now Greece was Thracian to begin with and much of the other areas have verifiable Balkan/Thracian influences from the Transitional Period. It's possible E-V13 was present at a low level since then.

Looking at the Greek E-V13 carriers, there is really everything in there, from old lineages which might date to the Bronze Age-Early Iron Age, to later Thracian migrants, Vlachs, Albanians, Slavs etc.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

When we bring up Greek E-V13, I always assume Greece south of mount of Olympus, it is this region that E-V13 moved in the form of a foreigner.