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Thread: Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

  1. #1
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    7 members found this post helpful.

    Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

    I opened up a thread on Anthrogenica some days ago and want to share my own research and the contributions made there here as well - the uploaded map is the newest version I made: E_V13_estimates.jpg
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Maps-and-Data

    Unfortunately the quality being quite reduced in the upload process. Here is a higher quality link: https://ibb.co/FnVdPwv


    Since I saw nice maps for other haplogroups, I wanted to produce a more updated map for E-V13. Maciamo or others surely can do better, but their current maps being outdated or lack data on the regional level which I consider to be important.
    If there is only E1b1b available, I did estimate E-V13 about 60-70 % (~ 65 %) for more Northern countries, based on the Austrian proportions, were subclades were available and if there are clear macro-regional trends, I fill from the spots available until more data comes in. Its just sketchy in some parts, any corrections or new data being welcomed. Please not that this is just to give a general impression. For a lot of regions not detailed subclades are known, so it has to rely on estimates for E-V13 or different studies yielded conflicting results.
    Another issue is that some subdivisions on this map are not ideal. Like I know that the Bavarian average is misleading, because Franconia, Munich and Swabia has by far more E-V13 than the typical Bavarian core of the rural countryside. East Tyrol has much less E-V13 than Northern Tyrol and so on.
    Its just to give a general impression with updated and more region specific data, as far as I could gather it. Countries without any differentation by region being the result of no available regional data at hands. This is especially true for France, Portugal, England, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

    Please no bashing, if you know better or have better data to share, just contribute!

    Also, if anybody has a better map down to the provincial level, just share. I just didn't find one to this point.



    In case I can't edit this posting any more, any newer update will be posted on the following pages.

    Data gathered from the following threads and studies:

    Austria:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Switzerland:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809082

    Czechia and Slovakia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    Slovenia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809097
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809193

    Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania:
    https://www.poreklo.rs/2019/06/12/y-...-ethnic-serbs/

    North Italian local samples, Frisians and English:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809215

    Local German and Polish samples:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...00000/download

    Poland:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...20.567309/full

    Italy:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...attini-et-al-)

    Greek provinces, Western Anatolian Greeks, Provence:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Mediterranean

    Greeks:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin

    Greeks and Turkish Cypriots:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0179474.s013

    Turkey:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ture-of-Turkey
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post795055

    Albanians:
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Romania and Moldova:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    Russia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....558#post811558

    Bulgaria:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0056779

    Data on various Slavic populations, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians etc. (Table K in S1 File):
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820

    Sweden:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201651/tables/1

    France:
    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...2b5a7/figure/3

    Basic informations also from:
    https://www.nevgen.org/Europe_haplogroups_overview.html
    Last edited by Riverman; 01-11-21 at 20:19.

  2. #2
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I opened up a thread on Anthrogenica some days ago and want to share my own research and the contributions made there here as well - the uploaded map is the newest version I made: E_V13_estimates.jpg
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Maps-and-Data

    Unfortunately the quality being quite reduced in the upload process.


    Since I saw nice maps for other haplogroups, I wanted to produce a more updated map for E-V13. Maciamo or others surely can do better, but their current maps being outdated or lack data on the regional level which I consider to be important.
    If there is only E1b1b available, I did estimate E-V13 about 60-70 % (~ 65 %) for more Northern countries, based on the Austrian proportions, were subclades were available and if there are clear macro-regional trends, I fill from the spots available until more data comes in. Its just sketchy in some parts, any corrections or new data being welcomed. Please not that this is just to give a general impression. For a lot of regions not detailed subclades are known, so it has to rely on estimates for E-V13 or different studies yielded conflicting results.
    Another issue is that some subdivisions on this map are not ideal. Like I know that the Bavarian average is misleading, because Franconia, Munich and Swabia has by far more E-V13 than the typical Bavarian core of the rural countryside. East Tyrol has much less E-V13 than Northern Tyrol and so on.
    Its just to give a general impression with updated and more region specific data, as far as I could gather it. Countries without any differentation by region being the result of no available regional data at hands. This is especially true for France, Portugal, England, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

    Please no bashing, if you know better or have better data to share, just contribute!

    Also, if anybody has a better map down to the provincial level, just share. I just didn't find one to this point.



    In case I can't edit this posting any more, any newer update will be posted on the following pages.

    Data gathered from the following threads and studies:

    Austria:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Switzerland:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809082

    Czechia and Slovakia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    Slovenia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809097
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809193

    Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania:
    https://www.poreklo.rs/2019/06/12/y-...-ethnic-serbs/

    North Italian local samples, Frisians and English:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809215

    Local German and Polish samples:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...00000/download

    Poland:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...20.567309/full

    Italy:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...attini-et-al-)

    Greek provinces, Western Anatolian Greeks, Provence:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Mediterranean

    Greeks:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin

    Greeks and Turkish Cypriots:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0179474.s013

    Turkey:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ture-of-Turkey
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post795055

    Albanians:
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Romania and Moldova:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    Russia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....558#post811558

    Bulgaria:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0056779

    Data on various Slavic populations, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians etc. (Table K in S1 File):
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820

    Sweden:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201651/tables/1

    France:
    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...2b5a7/figure/3

    Basic informations also from:
    https://www.nevgen.org/Europe_haplogroups_overview.html
    This is good ...........but its a modern breakup

    Can you do only a BC times one?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    This is good ...........but its a modern breakup

    Can you do only a BC times one?

    Not really, I can only offer my main expansion theory for E-V13, which is based on Channelled Ware/Gáva and its daughter cultures and fusions spreading it. It shows the distribution and spread of E-V13 in stages.
    1st stage is red, it outlines the zone of survival and later build up, recovery of the presumably Neolithic survivor E-V13 in an Epi-Corded environment, developing into specific regional cultures. The final stage of this epicentre is the Gáva-Holigrady culture and the associated Fluted Wares.These start to expand within and along with other Urnfield groups, which were not dominated by E-V13, just somewhat influenced by the South Eastern Urnfields, in the
    2nd stage, which is green, which shows the expansion phase in the Late Bronze Age, where those Urnfield-related E-V13 lineages got the upper hand and became the dominant lineage.
    The 3rd stage yellow is the maximal extent of this sphere of dominance, coming about in the Iron Age transition the early Iron to middle Iron Age period, which however shifted South, because other groups especially from the steppe (Cimmerians , Scythians, generally Iranian related) moved in and thinned the regional lineages there somewhat out. At this piont, the Thracian sphere might have had the highest percentage, keeping it into the later Iron Age and historical period.
    The 4th stage, represented by yellow arrows, shows secondary expansions out of the established centres in Central and South Eastern Europe, along other groups, mostly in Urnfield related networks first, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt later, or within the Greek world.


    Stages_E_V13.jpg

  4. #4
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    Country: Serbia



    Nice work on the Map, you got Serbia Spot on, the northern part "vojvodina" have a region called Banat, E is the highets haplogroup there, then you got East Serbia very good its the second largest haplogroup with J2 has also in second place, i2 is the first but not with much, then you have south Serbia that also if am not mistaking the largest one

  5. #5
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I opened up a thread on Anthrogenica some days ago and want to share my own research and the contributions made there here as well - the uploaded map is the newest version I made: E_V13_estimates.jpg
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Maps-and-Data

    Unfortunately the quality being quite reduced in the upload process.


    Since I saw nice maps for other haplogroups, I wanted to produce a more updated map for E-V13. Maciamo or others surely can do better, but their current maps being outdated or lack data on the regional level which I consider to be important.
    If there is only E1b1b available, I did estimate E-V13 about 60-70 % (~ 65 %) for more Northern countries, based on the Austrian proportions, were subclades were available and if there are clear macro-regional trends, I fill from the spots available until more data comes in. Its just sketchy in some parts, any corrections or new data being welcomed. Please not that this is just to give a general impression. For a lot of regions not detailed subclades are known, so it has to rely on estimates for E-V13 or different studies yielded conflicting results.
    Another issue is that some subdivisions on this map are not ideal. Like I know that the Bavarian average is misleading, because Franconia, Munich and Swabia has by far more E-V13 than the typical Bavarian core of the rural countryside. East Tyrol has much less E-V13 than Northern Tyrol and so on.
    Its just to give a general impression with updated and more region specific data, as far as I could gather it. Countries without any differentation by region being the result of no available regional data at hands. This is especially true for France, Portugal, England, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

    Please no bashing, if you know better or have better data to share, just contribute!

    Also, if anybody has a better map down to the provincial level, just share. I just didn't find one to this point.



    In case I can't edit this posting any more, any newer update will be posted on the following pages.

    Data gathered from the following threads and studies:

    Austria:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....NA-haplogroups

    Switzerland:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809082

    Czechia and Slovakia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....al-Differences

    Slovenia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809097
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809193

    Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania:
    https://www.poreklo.rs/2019/06/12/y-...-ethnic-serbs/

    North Italian local samples, Frisians and English:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post809215

    Local German and Polish samples:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...00000/download

    Poland:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...20.567309/full

    Italy:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...attini-et-al-)

    Greek provinces, Western Anatolian Greeks, Provence:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Mediterranean

    Greeks:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin

    Greeks and Turkish Cypriots:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0179474.s013

    Turkey:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ture-of-Turkey
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post795055

    Albanians:
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Romania and Moldova:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....lic-of-Moldova

    Russia:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....558#post811558

    Bulgaria:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0056779

    Data on various Slavic populations, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians etc. (Table K in S1 File):
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820

    Sweden:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201651/tables/1

    France:
    https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...2b5a7/figure/3

    Basic informations also from:
    https://www.nevgen.org/Europe_haplogroups_overview.html
    nice work, I would really love to have a higher resolution one, if you can be bothered to, please upload it to imgur.com, it is very easy and then you can share the link here
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    nice work, I would really love to have a higher resolution one, if you can be bothered to, please upload it to imgur.com, it is very easy and then you can share the link here
    Here is a link:

    https://ibb.co/FnVdPwv

  7. #7
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    Ethnic group
    Croat
    Country: Switzerland



    Nice, thank you.

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    Next version with changes especially for some Flemish and French regions:
    https://ibb.co/CWm9zcb

  9. #9
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Country: Albania



    Riv, maybe you should include Anatolia as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Riv, maybe you should include Anatolia as well?
    I would have, but my focus was on Europe, I found this great site where I could just fill in and unfortunately I don't know whether its even possible.

    Newest version with some corrections, especially for North Western Europe:
    https://ibb.co/LkKp9CT
    Last edited by Riverman; 02-11-21 at 18:50.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I would have, but my focus was on Europe, I found this great site where I could just fill in and unfortunately I don't know whether its even possible.

    Newest version with some corrections, especially for North Western Europe:
    https://ibb.co/LkKp9CT
    Not perfect, but maybe you can do it separately.

    https://mapchart.net/turkey.html

    Or, include some West Asian countries were you have data from, i have the feeling you can customly select countries based on continent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Not perfect, but maybe you can do it separately.

    https://mapchart.net/turkey.html

    Or, include some West Asian countries were you have data from, i have the feeling you can customly select countries based on continent.
    Yes, that's possible, but I won't work on it in the next time, unless you find an option to fuse the two maps (Europe and Anatolia-Caucasus), because my focus was on the general trend in the distribution. In Anatolia its rather going down smoothly from my impression.

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    How much E-V13 is there in Sardinia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    How much E-V13 is there in Sardinia?
    Not much, ,most of it is in the North, some in Cagliari, otherwise very low and more E-M81. The exact numbers provided depend often on where the sample was taken from, but its definitely below 2 %, rather lower than in England for example.

  15. #15
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Not much, ,most of it is in the North, some in Cagliari, otherwise very low and more E-M81. The exact numbers provided depend often on where the sample was taken from, but its definitely below 2 %, rather lower than in England for example.

    you said in the past, unless I am mistaken.......that E-V13 came from the carpathian mountain range ............do you have any date for this ?...............could be be the 120000 men women and children of the Bastarnae that philip V of Macedon invited to settle in northern Paeonia and western Macedonia ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    you said in the past, unless I am mistaken.......that E-V13 came from the carpathian mountain range ............do you have any date for this ?...............could be be the 120000 men women and children of the Bastarnae that philip V of Macedon invited to settle in northern Paeonia and western Macedonia ?
    The date is 1.300-1.100 BC, in the LBA-EIA transition for the bulk of it and its related to the spread of Gáva or in a wider sense Channelled Ware. The people related would be Daco-Thracians. Talking about later people of the same stock, that's Geto-Scythians, Thraco-Scythians, Karpi, Costobocci etc. and the Bastarnae surely got it some of it too, but I would rather bet on them having more I2 and less E-V13.
    Anyway, we don't know for sure how strong E-V13 was in every province of Gáva and Channelled Ware, what we do already know is that they came out on top in the successor groups of it, in Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. That's pretty safe at this point. And we also know that other Daco-Thracians and related, Channelled Ware influenced people had it too, like in more Northern Pannonia and the Carpathian bow, into Moldova, but probably in some lower frequency than the Psenichevo-Basarabi core, that's unknown.
    The secondary spread most likely was going primarily with Hallstatt and potentially the Greeks, because the Greeks got affected by Channelled Ware people too. However, in some regions the locals seem to have pushed them out again, so their legacy is uncertain.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The date is 1.300-1.100 BC, in the LBA-EIA transition for the bulk of it and its related to the spread of G�va or in a wider sense Channelled Ware. The people related would be Daco-Thracians. Talking about later people of the same stock, that's Geto-Scythians, Thraco-Scythians, Karpi, Costobocci etc. and the Bastarnae surely got it some of it too, but I would rather bet on them having more I2 and less E-V13.
    Anyway, we don't know for sure how strong E-V13 was in every province of G�va and Channelled Ware, what we do already know is that they came out on top in the successor groups of it, in Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. That's pretty safe at this point. And we also know that other Daco-Thracians and related, Channelled Ware influenced people had it too, like in more Northern Pannonia and the Carpathian bow, into Moldova, but probably in some lower frequency than the Psenichevo-Basarabi core, that's unknown.
    The secondary spread most likely was going primarily with Hallstatt and potentially the Greeks, because the Greeks got affected by Channelled Ware people too. However, in some regions the locals seem to have pushed them out again, so their legacy is uncertain.
    From Viminacium paper only E-V13 Z5017 has shown clear links with Thracian world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    From Viminacium paper only E-V13 Z5017 has shown clear links with Thracian world.
    I think that is related to this specific tribal grouping in the area. I'm pretty sure if going over the Danube North or in any other direction, a greater variety would eventually pop up. I also think that since Hallstatt latest Pannonia was always inhabited at least by some E-V13 members, possibly since much earlier times, but this needs to be proven.

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    Newest version with some updates for the British Isles, to give the Isles some more structure:



    https://ibb.co/4Z575NM

    There seems to be a correlation with Norman settlement in Southern Ireland.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    E-V13 in Apulia and Abruzzo was likely increased by Western Balkanites fleeing Slavs and Turks during and after the Middle Ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    E-V13 in Apulia and Abruzzo was likely increased by Western Balkanites fleeing Slavs and Turks during and after the Middle Ages.
    Yes, definitely. The question is how much is from earlier, especially Greek and Thracian migrants, and even from Central Europeans-Northern Italians.
    Interestingly, some Southern clusters might be independent or Southern centered, whereas others might point to a North to South movement also.
    To be sure we need way more data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, definitely. The question is how much is from earlier, especially Greek and Thracian migrants, and even from Central Europeans-Northern Italians.
    Interestingly, some Southern clusters might be independent or Southern centered, whereas others might point to a North to South movement also.
    To be sure we need way more data.
    In Iberia E-V13 seem to be mostly VisiGothic. It does not extend 3% in any province.
    Some real Germanic lines (as I1) were spread with post antiquity European movement.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    E-V13 in Apulia and Abruzzo was likely increased by Western Balkanites fleeing Slavs and Turks during and after the Middle Ages.
    And why only specific subclades, especially in Sicily, where some old subclades are there. You seem to be quite obsessed with reducing percentages of E-V13 further down in Balkans. I know why you are doing so, your ulterior motives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    And why only specific subclades, especially in Sicily, where some old subclades are there. You seem to be quite obsessed with reducing percentages of E-V13 further down in Balkans. I know why you are doing so, your ulterior motives.
    What subclades? What are you even talking about? I have made a post that maybe E-V13 could be partly Italic given how spread it is in Italy, unlike in Iberia. Even though J2b has popped out but not E-V13 which make it extremely confusing.

    Which old subclade are you even talking about? The Campanian study has over 100 samples, we will see if it is there.
    I know that Goths did not bring all or even most of E-V13 in Italy, they were not numerous enough to do that.
    Last edited by ihype02; 13-12-21 at 16:48.

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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    In Iberia E-V13 seem to be mostly VisiGothic. It does not extend 3% in any province.
    Some real Germanic lines (as I1) were spread with post antiquity European movement.
    I was wrong it pushes over 3% in some regions.

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