Genomes From Verteba Cave Suggest Diversity Within The Trypillians In Ukraine

[Vallicanus]

The guy you posted has a flat and narrow forehead, doesn't match much I would suggest.
But you would never find someone who matches 100% to a description. 80% for example means still 20% not matching with the sample of a population.

He has a broad forehead. He's "Alpine" after all.


Trypillians looked like North Europeans and Brits, really? Not the most typical ones.

 

[Vallicanus]

Double Post

 

[Miroslav]

Even if you were right, though, we'd still have three different I2 lineages out of three I2 samples. Who is to say that if they test 1000 Cucuteni-Trypillian samples there won't be any I2-L621.

It is a false argument. In your article about I2-L621 which (represented by one subclade) is today mainly found in (South)Eastern Europe (Slavs) mention your CT culture theory on a basis of an assumption. Until when this assumption will stay there? Until you have 1000 CT samples? That is basically forever. We already have many Neolithic, Bronze age, Iron age and Ancient samples until the end of Roman period from Southeastern and Eastern Europe. Where is I2-L621 and especially downward ancestral subclade(s) related to Early Slavs? There is none and that speaks volume.

One thing I don't understand is why you write L621 (> I-CTS10936 > I-S19848 > I-CTS4002 > I-CTS10228 > I-Y3120+) ? I was talking about L621, not its subclades. I-Y3120 is 3400 years old, so it's impossible that it is belongs to the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, which started 7500 years ago and ended almost 5000 years ago.

Because your theory is phylogenetically outdated, illogical and without context. You cannot write about I2-L621 which formed thousands years ago and then Slavic migration which happened in current era. Your are making direct links between I2-L621, CT culture, Eastern Europe and Slavs. Not all I2-L621 is Slavic or Eastern European. Today demographically mainly is but other part is Western-Central European. You need to differentiate the Western-Central European subclades from (South)Eastern European subclade.

Indeed, the geographical distribution of ancestral and sister clades of I2-Y3120 as well as age formation and TMRCA of I2-Y3120 (and its subclades) confirm it is impossible there's any direct link of I2-L621 with CT culture as well as of that culture with Early Slavs regarding the Y-DNA lineage we are speaking about.

 

[Miroslav]

@Moesan, argument is genetics itself. We are dealing with a single Proto-Celtic lineage from Central Europe thousands of years ago. Of course we won't have any recognizable Proto-Celtic input into Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis by now. We are not speaking about cultural exchnage, although some traces maybe could be found in pagan mythology, but anthropological legacy. It is like expecting to find recognizable Caucasian-Indo European input in Western-Central Africans who belong to R1b-V88.

Look, there's even less argument arguing CTC, Daco-Thracian or Illyrian connection with I2-L621. We already have many archaeological samples from various archaeological cultures, periods and people in Southeastern Europe. The Proto-Slavs and even less in their Early Slavic expansion they couldn't possibly get and expand in such a way only one lineage without any other trace in Southeastern Europe. What is even less logical is basically saying that the Daco-Thracian tribes had (distant) cousins in Western-Central Europe.

 

[torzio]

from the paper :

It is also interesting to remark that, except for two individuals, the majority of individuals from Verteba cave have the variant of SNP rs12913832 associated with blue eyes and the other two associated with dark eyes​

i am A/G eyes are hazel

as I placed on other thread ..........I am G/G and have green eyes ...father the same ..................all my sons have G/G , but all have blue eyes like their mother

23andme state
70% blue
28% green
2% hazel ............for myself

 

[MOESAN]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

The Slavic subclade is I-Y3120, it split 3400 years ago from I-Y81696 which is found in Bas-Rhin and Baden-Wurttemberg.
3400 years ago is just when the mutation occured, the migration into Eastern Europe probably wasn't immedieately but some generations after.

More widely speaking these are subclades of the 14,100 year old I-M423, which was found in mesolithic and neolithic samples from Scandinavia, British Isles, Spain, etc.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/

Even today I-M423 is found only in western Europe. Out of 100s of modern and ancient samples, in Eastern Europe there is only this rare subclade : https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13336/
and the Slavic one which I already mentioned, which splits from the West European ones 3400 years ago.

With such deep roots, I can hardly imagine what kind of samples could be found which would shift the origins of I-L621 away from Western Europe.

I cannot exclude any hypothesis, by lack of more intermediary SNP's; the yfull samples you provide me are to scarce to conclude anything, but:
small number of westernly todate scattered people with very ancient upstream clades is not at all the proof of a big pop's of ancestors just there; I think the bulk of this group of I2a1b-M423 was not centered on western Europe, plus the original place of higher density of a primal clade become often the place of lesser density of it later: number favours mutations so more downstreams, not only time!
without knowing indeed, we can speculate that the place of specific I-Y81696 was in Central Europe, that some moves westwards AND eastwards at the Urnfield times may be imagined; if some Celts had picked the Y81696 clade concerned, this subset of Y-haplo's was not the bulk of the Celts. Some scholars thought the Tumuli people who entered S-W Poland just before Urnfields and Lusacian times
were Celts; I think they rather send a lot of Y-R1b-U152if it was the case, but who knows? Maybe some Y-I2a1b too, at those times they were no more in the absolute clannic system of the Chalcolithic/EBA and we can suppose some males of other ethnies, bearers of Y-G or Y-I could have been integrated if they had some peculiar skills.

 

[MOESAN]

My aim was about general making of these tribes or groups. Some of you ar interested in almost "individual" lineages (it's a picture) and their individual source (on the male lineage, because otherwise, themselves and their descendants owe to a lot of mother lineages). Whatever the place of source these male lineages took strength later among other cultural groups, among Slavs by instance; but it isn't sure the most of the last I-Y3120 were of Slavic culture at first, spite I think they developped more in East. ATW I made hypothesis, ancient DNA is safer!

 

[johen]

It seems the Trypilla culture reached china. see flexed burial and trypilla type pottery:

From yangshao to trypillia: the development of early agricultural societies in the 5th-4th millennia bce:
"Almost a hundred years ago, Johan Andersson discovered Yangshao prehistoric agricultural culture in China. Just in his first publication, he compared his findings of pottery with known at that time cultures of painted pottery Trypillia in Ukraine and Anau in Central Asia, believing that the culture of Yangshao originated from western influences. In our opinion, the issue of social development and the historical fate of early agricultural societies, the appearance of their first civilizations, is more relevant than the search for a common ancestral home.
At the same time, the cultural complexes of Yangshao and Cucuteni-Trypillia have gone a similar way of social development, the indispensable components of which are the establishment of large settlements, among them, fortified ones, large public buildings, and these settlements become the centers of handicraft production. The scholars define them as some kind of proto-cities.
The difference between Yangshao and Cucuteni-Trypillia is that in the East, the progressive development of society leading to the creation of urban civilization continues, while in the West in Trypillia region, it stops for several millennia. If we consider this issue concerning South-East and East Europe, then during the 3rd millennium BCE a similar transition takes place in some regions, including the territory of Hellas.
A brief overview of the development of Yangshao and Cucuteni-Trypillia cultural complexes clearly shows the importance and efficiency of the comparative method in the study of early societies, including the early urbanization processes, which begin in cultural complexes belonging to early agricultural societies of the 5th-4th millennia BCE in different parts of the world. Their beginning depends primarily on the dynamics of the development of the societies themselves, rather than on outside influences or borrowings. The development of techniques (including painted pottery making) can only be adapted if certain prerequisites are met."

 

[Miroslav]

Cucuteni, one of the most mysterious civilizations of prehistory, with a greater antiquity than the Mesopotamian one, left behind impressive vestiges, which could be brought to light in over 1800 archeological sites in Romania. It also impresses with the mysterious disappearance of this civilization. 90% of the discovered settlements were ritually destroyed by fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLA9W6HGzio&t=86s

Considering Y-DNA and atDNA and "strange" downfall of the archaeological culture would argue that burning is probably related to violent interaction with Indo-Europeans. but there exist various theories.

 

[Riverman]

They were attacked by pastoralist warriors from two sides, from the North East by GAC and from the West by steppe groups which came under pressure from Yamnaya. Some of the pastoralist groups which moved into the Carpathians had elements of Western steppe groups (Corded decorated horizon, especially Cernavoda-Usatovo) and GAC.
For a very long time they had kept the steppe people under check, imho primarily by using allied steppe people and trade partners as sort of a buffer, just like steppe Maykop had the same function for Maykop in the East and its not by chance that both collapsed when the steppe groups got under pressure and needed to break through. Its like most of the time a migration period event, caused by one or more major group pushing the other, like Yamnaya and GAC.

 

[Riverman]

I think that the degree of burning of the houses until the glazing of the clay shows a long and deliberate preparation and maintenance of the incineration of the houses. So accidental fires, or fires caused by the invaders are excluded, because the invaders did not maintain the fire with tens of tons of combustible material brought for each house from the tens or hundreds that existed in a single village, to cause the vitrification of the houses!... Also, in the case of migrant attacks or accidental fires, human bodies remain were probably found in many of the thousands of houses found cremated. In my opinion, for 3000 years or so, in Cucuteni culture, burning houses with all the inventory found inside was indeed a religious ritual custom. Archaeologists assume that the total lack of graves probably shows that the houses were probably also a funeral pyre for the deceased owners. It is possible that the ritual meant that any traces of ash or burnt human bones that may have been left were scattered in the water or in the wind.

The most likely explanation in this huge towns with limited hygienic standards is that they were regularly affected by massive plagues. Probably it became a standard procedure to burn the whole town down and rebuild it afterwards, instead of trying to clean things up. This would also mean that any sort of plague came rather from them, instead of being brought to them. However, they surely were regularly weakened by these incidents, would have been an optimal time for attacking them, once they were either rebuilding or suffering from a plague.

Another big issue is the supply of this mega-towns. They might have been hard to conquer directly, but they could have been easily raided to death by more mobile competitors. Similar to what we know from the written records in Mesopotamia. The townsfolk came always to late to defend their fields and outposts.