Copper Age–Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia

[bicicleur 2]

It's interesting to speculate that perhaps the original settlements, which showed no hierarchy among the people might have been a metal working group from abroad.

Los Millares, which always looked so Aegean like to me, and nothing like what the newly arriving steppe admixed people were building.

As so often in this hobbyist community, anything that didn't fit the narrative of David Anthony and Eurogenes had to be wrong.

if there was no hierarchy,

why are all these settlements surrounded by walls and constructions that look like watch towers?

why were some of them burried in such elaborate graves?



who are all these in this forum that connected the Iberian cahlcolithic with steppe people?

 

[real expert]

mtdna types ( no mtdna L,i see significant k1a4 % )

ALM001 X2B+226
ALM002 K1B1A1C
ALM003 X2B+226
ALM004 U5A1
ALM006 H
ALM007 H1
ALM008 V
ALM014 U5B1+16189
ALM015 K1A4A1
ALM016 H1+16189
ALM017 T2B21
ALM018 R0A
ALM019 K1B1A1C
ALM020 K1A3A
ALM021 U5B3
ALM024 J1C1
ALM025 H3
ALM026 K1A1B1
ALM027 K1A3A
ALM028 K1A+195
ALM029 H1BD
ALM030 H1
ALM031 J2B1A
ALM032 T2B3+151
ALM034 K1A+195
ALM035 K1A+195
ALM036 U5B3
ALM038 H1
ALM039 J1C2
ALM040 U5B2B3A
ALM041 H1E1
ALM042 H4A1A
ALM043 H1
ALM044 H3
ALM046 T2+16189
ALM047 H6A1B
ALM048 K1A
ALM049 H1
ALM050 H3
ALM051 V
ALM052 K1A4A1
ALM053 H1
ALM055 K1A4A1E
ALM056 K1A
ALM057 H1
ALM058 U5B1F1A
ALM060 U5A1+ @16192
ALM062 H1J
ALM063 K1A+195
ALM064 H1CF
ALM067 U5B1F1A
ALM068 K1A4B
ALM069 H1Q1
ALM070 K1A1B1
ALM071 K1A1B1
ALM073 H1J
ALM075 U5B1E
ALM076 H1+16189
ALM077 K1A4B
ALM078 K1A
ALM079 -----
ALM080 U5B3
ALM081 U5B3
ALM084 K2A
ALM086 U5B1F1
ALM087 X2
ALM088 V
BAS002 H1E1A
BAS003 H1
BAS017 U5B1
BAS018 U5B1
BAS022 K1A+195
BAS023 U5B2B3
BAS024 K1A+195
BAS025 H105A
BAS026 H3
BAS027 V3A
CBR004 H4A1A
CDM001 J2A1A1
CDM002 H3
CDM003 K1A+195
CDM004 H1E1A
CDM005 J1C1B1
CDM006 V
CDP001 K1A4A1
CDP002 J1C1E
CDP003 H1+152
CDP006 U5A1C1A
CDP007 K1A2B
CDP008 -------
CDP009 H1+152
CDP011 J2B1A
CLL001 K1A+195
CLL002 H1E1C
CLL003 K1A2B
CLL004 K1A+195
CLL005 K1A4A1
CLL006 H1
CLL007 K1A4A1
CLL008 J1C1B
CLL009 K1B1A
CLL010 J2B1A
CLL011 K1A4A1
CMO001 T2C1D+152
CMO002 K1A
CMO003 J2B1A2
EFA006 K1A4A1
EFA007 U5A2+16362
EFA008 H10B
EFA009 J2B1A
EFA010 K1A
EFA011 U5B2A
LHO001 K1A+195
LHO002 K1A+195
LHO003 U5B1B1G
LOT001 H1E1A8
MDP001 K1A
MDP002 V
MDP003 HV0
MIV001 J1C3G
MMI004 K1A1B1
MON013 H3
MON014 U5B1C
MON015 K1A4A1
MON016 T2C1D+152
MON017 H1E1A
MON019 H1
MON020 K1A+195
MON021 K1B1A
MON029 K1A1
MON033 U5B1
MON036 K1A4A1
PLZ001 K1A+195
PUC001 H3
PUC002 I1A1
PUC003 U5B2A+@16192
PUC004 V
ZAP002 H5A
BAS014 H1
EFA001 H1
EFA004 H1
FAL001 V+@72
FAL002 J1C1B1
MMI002 J2B1
MMI003 T2B3+151
ZAP001 J1C1

Thanks Kingjohn for showing us all the mtdna.

 

[Angela]

if there was no hierarchy,

why are all these settlements surrounded by walls and constructions that look like watch towers?

why were some of them burried in such elaborate graves?

View attachment 13024

who are all these in this forum that connected the Iberian cahlcolithic with steppe people?

I didn't write the paper, and the authors probably assumed they were locals. I think now, as I thought years ago that these may have been settlements of people from the east. It looks like there were many of these tombs; just look at the aerial view. Perhaps they were for the leaders of the expedition?

As for why they had walls for defense, they were surrounded by foreigners. Why wouldn't they surround their houses and craft areas with walls? The Phoenicians protected their emporia and the farming settlements they started for resupply of their trading vessels, so why not these people?

I don't completely understand the last sentence. For one thing I said I was debating this with Jean Manco and other people from dna forums years ago. The hobbyist community is larger than just this site. I don't remember clearly who on this site took precisely what position, other than Moesan, which is why I didn't mention anyone in particular, but since you asked the question, to the best of my recollection either LeBrok or Bicicleur 1 argued they were steppe people who somehow left Europe and suddenly took to sailing in boats to find ore, and went to Iberia. I found it completely implausible then and I find it completely implausible now. At that time the steppe people had barely any metallurgy of their own, and this is NOT steppe architecture. I'm not inclined to spend an hour or more trying to find the specific discussions. Perhaps you can shed some light on the matter?

 

[Anfänger]

I see an arrival in the late Copper age, and my idea, when I debated all of this with Jean Manco at least ten years ago, was that metallurgists indeed navigated long distances searching for ore and places to work it by hugging the coasts in their boats.

They could have come (as a mixture of Anatolia Neolithic and Iran Neo/CHG), directly from the Aegean, or with stop overs in Sicily and/or Sardinia.

Thank you for your answer. Metallurgists looking for ore, makes sense.These people remind me of an early form of the ancient Greeks or the Phoenicians.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I didn't write the paper, and the authors probably assumed they were locals. I think now, as I thought years ago that these may have been settlements of people from the east. It looks like there were many of these tombs; just look at the aerial view. Perhaps they were for the leaders of the expedition?

As for why they had walls for defense, they were surrounded by foreigners. Why wouldn't they surround their houses and craft areas with walls? The Phoenicians protected their emporia and the farming settlements they started for resupply of their trading vessels, so why not these people?

I don't completely understand the last sentence. For one thing I said I was debating this with Jean Manco and other people from dna forums years ago. The hobbyist community is larger than just this site. I don't remember clearly who on this site took precisely what position, other than Moesan, which is why I didn't mention anyone in particular, but since you asked the question, to the best of my recollection either LeBrok or Bicicleur 1 argued they were steppe people who somehow left Europe and suddenly took to sailing in boats to find ore, and went to Iberia. I found it completely implausible then and I find it completely implausible now. At that time the steppe people had barely any metallurgy of their own, and this is NOT steppe architecture. I'm not inclined to spend an hour or more trying to find the specific discussions. Perhaps you can shed some light on the matter?

They seem to have been skilled prospectors for ores and copper melters coming from abroad, there was no learning curve for the locals.
I guess some of them became quite wealthy from the copper trade with the meditarrenean.

 

[Aaron1981]

My closest Y-relative by a longshot from any other aDNA research ZAP002, after thousands of samples. Seems to be a foreigner and a mix of 3 sources Sicilian_EBA + German Bell Beaker + IberoMaurisian.

 

[kingjohn]

My closest Y-relative by a longshot from any other aDNA research ZAP002, after thousands of samples. Seems to be a foreigner and a mix of 3 sources Sicilian_EBA + German Bell Beaker + IberoMaurisian.

Cool for you
he is interesting case:
autosomally speaking
He is outlier yet buried regulary like all the rest
Not like a forgeiner

from the paper :

[FONT=&quot] We found that ZAP002 does not require a local Iberia_CA source and can be modeled as a three-way mixture of Germany_Bell_Beaker, Morocco_Iberomaurusian, and either Sicily EBA, Sardinia EBA, or Sardinia Nuragic BA ([/FONT]Fig. 5C[FONT=&quot] and table S2.18). These qpAdm results are congruent with the location of ZAP002 in PC space, where he clusters with Sicily EBA individuals ([/FONT]Fig. 3A[FONT=&quot]). Rotating the Iberian CA source to the outgroups in the same model still upholds the model fit ([/FONT]Fig. 5C[FONT=&quot], table S2.18, and text S9), suggesting an entirely nonlocal origin of individual ZAP002 despite being granted the same burial treatment as other individuals from El Argar (pithos burial and Argaric pottery) ([/FONT]Fig. 5C[FONT=&quot]).[/FONT]

 

[jose luis]

Kinship practices in the early state El Argar society from Bronze Age Iberia
27 December 2022

The large-scale transformations of the Early Bronze Age were not necessarily brought about by drastic changes, i.e., violent events and a complete replacement of social structures, but rather that socio-economic and demographic factors met already existing socio-political conditions that furthered the rise of inequality and hierarchization.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-25975-9

 

[MOESAN]

Always this swinging move between theories, invasion-colonization (even limited to an elite) and internal evolution based on economic and populational factors. If no violence, we can at least imagine strong contacts. ATW, as time passes, we see by accumulation of genetic data, that demic moves occurred in a lot of Europe places in far past, contrary to the 70-80's theories of lone acculturation based on trade and contacts. (Neolithic revolution, BB's, BA, IA and so on...)