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Thread: IE Tarim Basin theory reconsidered

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    IE Tarim Basin theory reconsidered

    Tlingits are the closest people to the "oldest" Tarim stratum.

    J2BvLNF.png (469×747) (imgur.com)
    uRcO6L9.png (475×753) (imgur.com)

    Tlingits have the highest Andronovo-related Altai_MLBA ancestry (63.2%). Altai_MLBA ancestry has ~50% WSH, ~40% Northeast Asian and 10% Amerindian ancestries.

    DuxWwUj.png (2649×1305) (imgur.com)

    If Altai_MLBA ancestry has such high WSH ancestry, then a comparable EMBA population must have existed. What I say is that Fan Zhang and his team were unaware of this steppe ancestries and IE origins are still the most likely origin for the Tarim Basin people. If we consider the fact that Amerindian Tlingits and Altaian Telengits are somewhat related, it only confirms the long-known close genetic Altai-Great Lakes proximity.


    Y-dna R1 (M173)is found predominantly in North American groups like the Ojibwe (50-79%), Seminole (50%), Sioux (50%), Cherokee (47%), Dogrib (40%) and Tohono O'odham Papago (38%). Allele frequency-based D-statistic tests20 show that all 48 tested modern-day populations with First American ancestry19 are equally related to Mal'ta–Buret' culture (MA-1) within the resolution data, which would not be expected if the signal was driven by recent European admixture. So the high R1 numbers in Native Americans must have come from the Bronze Age steppe herders (WSH ancestry), because MA-1 is closer to Native Americans than any of the 15 tested European populations. The principal-component analysis suggests a close genetic relatedness between some North American Amerindians (the Chipewyan and the Cheyenne) and certain populations of central/southern Siberia (particularly the Kets, Yakuts, Selkups and Altays), at the resolution of major Y-chromosome haplogroups (Bortolini et al.). This pattern agrees with the distribution of mtDNA haplogroup X, which is found in North America, is absent from eastern Siberia, but is present in the Altais of southern central Siberia. Similarly, the Asian populations closest to Native Americans are characterized by a predominance of lineage P-M45* and low frequencies of C-RPS4Y.

    We urgently need deep SNP tests for the Amerindian R1b clades!

    4IzxreC.png (674×495) (imgur.com)





    Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Caucasoid mtDNA U3 and X2 in Taklamakan Desert

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    this is an interesting find, it deserves further investigation

    but R1b has nothing to do with it
    the Native American R1b is M269 (the European branch), and the Tarim Basin R1b is PH155, 2 completely different branches that split more than 20.000 years ago

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the Native American R1b is M269 (the European branch)
    This is not possible because: Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans (nih.gov)
    Allele frequency-based D-statistic tests20 show that all 48 tested modern-day populations with First American ancestry19 are equally related to Mal'ta–Buret' culture (MA-1) within the resolution data, which would not be expected if the signal was driven by recent European admixture.
    There are no European alleles among Native American R1b. So they are of WSH R1b origin migrating to the East.

    Here is the evidence:
    Tlingit: 3461.0:44 = 78.7%
    Inuit_Greenland_West: 2561.5:44 = 58.2%
    Inuit_Greenland_East:
    Cree: 1591.2:44 = 36.2%
    Inuit_Sireniki: 856.6:44 = 19.5%
    Inuit_Naukan: 820.7:44 = 18.7%
    Inuit_Chaplin:
    Chipewyan: 682.7:44 = 15.5%

    Code:
    -------------------- SAMPLES --------------------
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I12976,0.078538,-0.165531,0.041483,0.018411,0.005539,0.018128,0.004465,0.008077,-0.012271,-0.013668,-0.041409,-0.006744,-0.00223,-0.020919,0.014386,0.011933,0.000913,-0.000127,0.001508,0.004252,0.005865,-0.00643,-0.004314,0.001566,0.002634
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6363,0.093335,-0.06804,0.062602,0.062985,-0.022773,0.011435,0.00893,0.004846,-0.005522,-0.020957,-0.009581,-0.012739,0.007879,-0.022157,0.01045,-0.001989,-0.010822,-0.007348,-0.000377,5e-04,-0.013851,0.00272,-0.001602,0.016629,-0.007424
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I7033,0.086506,-0.083273,0.056568,0.046189,-0.029236,0.018686,-0.00705,-0.001154,-0.00409,-0.019317,-0.002273,-0.003147,0.006838,-0.022845,0.008143,0.009546,-0.005215,-0.001014,-0.004399,0.008629,-0.025081,0.00779,-0.010106,0.006627,-0.007903
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I12978,0.095611,-0.032497,0.053551,0.124033,-0.067705,0.029841,-0.018096,-0.027922,-0.03845,-0.068703,-0.000812,0.003447,0.006095,-0.03647,0.03013,0.014585,-0.002086,-0.003041,-0.001885,0.000875,-0.021587,0.003091,0.016885,0.017472,-0.00479
    Steppe_EMBA_East:EBA1,0.076261,-0.174671,0.088623,0.111759,-0.080938,0.009761,-0.031491,-0.041537,-0.02352,-0.056858,0.01429,-0.007343,0.016353,-0.049131,0.013436,0.012198,-0.005215,-0.004307,0.00352,0.007879,-0.03656,0.007419,0.013311,0.013255,-0.011137
    Steppe_EMBA_East:EBA2,0.084229,-0.156392,0.07203,0.117896,-0.080938,0.021753,-0.033372,-0.034614,-0.020043,-0.061049,0.016726,-0.004796,0.018137,-0.045828,0.023344,0.000133,-0.025295,0.00038,0.000754,-0.003877,-0.033067,0.008285,0.017871,0.007832,-0.008143
    Steppe_EMBA_East:RISE681,0.093335,-0.1046,0.072784,0.098192,-0.065551,0.010877,-0.026556,-0.02123,-0.032315,-0.060867,0.004872,-0.004646,0.002081,-0.039911,0.022122,0.001989,-0.024251,-0.009502,0.000126,0.003252,-0.023334,0.011623,0.019473,0.00976,-0.003113
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I13173,0.071709,-0.219354,0.043746,0.047158,-0.074168,0.00251,-0.012456,-0.008307,-0.019021,-0.033167,-0.023871,-0.007793,0.00773,-0.02202,0.009365,0.000796,-0.005346,-0.004814,0.004651,0.00075,-0.026578,0.010387,-0.007518,0.004458,-0.000359
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6362,0.097888,-0.074134,0.052043,0.05491,-0.0437,0.012271,0.001645,0,-0.017385,-0.030251,-0.007957,-0.007044,-0.002973,-0.026424,0.016151,0.006762,-0.01343,-0.00038,0.004525,0.001501,-0.019341,0.00507,-0.007395,0.011929,-0.002634
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6367,0.084229,-0.079211,0.053928,0.045543,-0.013849,0.013945,-0.00329,0.002077,-0.01268,-0.022415,-0.020623,-0.005545,-0.006095,-0.017203,0.025651,-0.011403,-0.028163,-0.001394,-0.004525,-0.001626,-0.010107,0.008532,-0.007148,0.003253,-0.002634

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    If Altai_MLBA ancestry has such high WSH ancestry, then a comparable EMBA population must have existed. What I say is that Fan Zhang and his team were unaware of this steppe ancestries and IE origins are still the most likely origin for the Tarim Basin people.
    I think archaeology factor should be considered. Even if tarim culture has ANE or WSHG culture, they don't have afanasievo or sintahsta or andronovo's culture at all. They were buried in upside down boat. Likewise it is a problem for kalash people to bronze steppe people although they have large steppe admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think archaeology factor should be considered. Even if tarim culture has ANE or WSHG culture, they don't have afanasievo or sintahsta or andronovo's culture at all. They were buried in upside down boat. Likewise it is a problem for kalash people to bronze steppe people although they have large steppe admixture.
    I understand this part but why Tlingit have highest Tarim ancestry and east-asianized WSH ancestry at the same time? That's my question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    This is not possible because: Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans (nih.gov)
    There are no European alleles among Native American R1b.
    Pretty interesting. 5 years ago I claimed and quoted same, however there is a great rebuttal:

    johen
    07-07-2016, 06:34 PM

    If R had moved into the Americas at this time and survived to leave modern descendants, then this R would by now have SNPs forming subclades completely different from the Eurasian ones and easily distinguished.
    There is another 2014 research about american Natives. It seems to me that R1b Native tribes didnot get the R1b from European. Moreover, their language is similar to proto IE, Tocharian,


    In addition, we exclude post-Columbian European admixture (after 1492 ad) as an explanation for the genetic affinity between MA-1 and Native Americans for three reasons. First, for SNP array-based analyses, we take recent European admixture into account by using a data set masked for inferred admixed genomic regions19. Second, allele frequency-based D-statistic tests20 show that all 48 tested modern-day populations with First American ancestry19 are equally related to MA-1 within the resolution of our data (Supplementary Information, section 14.4), which would not be expected if the signal was driven by recent European admixture. Third, MA-1 is closer to Native Americans than any of the 15 tested European populations (Supplementary Information, section 14.8).
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/

    Supplementary Information, section 14.4
    https://s31.postimg.org/q4o0qnvkb/Capture.png

    52 American Indian population was including in Algonquian(5), Ojibwe(5), and Chipewyan (15)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3615710/


    It is now the most common haplogroup after the various Q-M242, especially in North America, highest worldwide R1 rates among Great Lakes/Algonquian-speakers,[3] in Ojibwe people at 79%, Chipewyan 62%, Seminole 50%, Cherokee 47%, Dogrib 40% and Papago 38%. 97% of R1 had the M269 SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) wiki


    Kale
    07-08-2016, 04:34 PM

    I think this paper needs to be bookmarked somewhere on this forum whenever R1b and Native Americans come up...
    https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerFSIinpress.pdf (page 5)

    To simplify the results into three columns (Native American, Native American minus C and Q, European American)
    C: 9.0%, 0%, 0.1%
    E: 2.9%, 8.7%, 4.9%
    G: .3%, .9%, 3.8%
    I: 6.6%, 19.8%, 19.5%
    J: 1.6%, 4.8%, 3.4%
    Q: 58.1%, 0%, .7%
    R1*: 0%, 0%, .1%
    R-M17: 1.5%, 4.5%, 7.2%
    R-P25: .3%, .9%%, .6%
    R-M269: 21.9%, 65.7%, 58.3%

    They all add up to like 101-102% because of rounding.
    Compare the following two lines...
    71.1% R, 4.8% J, 19.8% I, .9% G
    71.5% R, 3.5% J, 20.5% I, 1.5% G
    The first line is Native Americans (minus obvious C and Q lineages), the second line is English.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    This is not possible because: Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans (nih.gov)

    There are no European alleles among Native American R1b. So they are of WSH R1b origin migrating to the East.

    Here is the evidence:
    Tlingit: 3461.0:44 = 78.7%
    Inuit_Greenland_West: 2561.5:44 = 58.2%
    Inuit_Greenland_East:
    Cree: 1591.2:44 = 36.2%
    Inuit_Sireniki: 856.6:44 = 19.5%
    Inuit_Naukan: 820.7:44 = 18.7%
    Inuit_Chaplin:
    Chipewyan: 682.7:44 = 15.5%

    Code:
    -------------------- SAMPLES --------------------
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I12976,0.078538,-0.165531,0.041483,0.018411,0.005539,0.018128,0.004465,0.008077,-0.012271,-0.013668,-0.041409,-0.006744,-0.00223,-0.020919,0.014386,0.011933,0.000913,-0.000127,0.001508,0.004252,0.005865,-0.00643,-0.004314,0.001566,0.002634
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6363,0.093335,-0.06804,0.062602,0.062985,-0.022773,0.011435,0.00893,0.004846,-0.005522,-0.020957,-0.009581,-0.012739,0.007879,-0.022157,0.01045,-0.001989,-0.010822,-0.007348,-0.000377,5e-04,-0.013851,0.00272,-0.001602,0.016629,-0.007424
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I7033,0.086506,-0.083273,0.056568,0.046189,-0.029236,0.018686,-0.00705,-0.001154,-0.00409,-0.019317,-0.002273,-0.003147,0.006838,-0.022845,0.008143,0.009546,-0.005215,-0.001014,-0.004399,0.008629,-0.025081,0.00779,-0.010106,0.006627,-0.007903
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I12978,0.095611,-0.032497,0.053551,0.124033,-0.067705,0.029841,-0.018096,-0.027922,-0.03845,-0.068703,-0.000812,0.003447,0.006095,-0.03647,0.03013,0.014585,-0.002086,-0.003041,-0.001885,0.000875,-0.021587,0.003091,0.016885,0.017472,-0.00479
    Steppe_EMBA_East:EBA1,0.076261,-0.174671,0.088623,0.111759,-0.080938,0.009761,-0.031491,-0.041537,-0.02352,-0.056858,0.01429,-0.007343,0.016353,-0.049131,0.013436,0.012198,-0.005215,-0.004307,0.00352,0.007879,-0.03656,0.007419,0.013311,0.013255,-0.011137
    Steppe_EMBA_East:EBA2,0.084229,-0.156392,0.07203,0.117896,-0.080938,0.021753,-0.033372,-0.034614,-0.020043,-0.061049,0.016726,-0.004796,0.018137,-0.045828,0.023344,0.000133,-0.025295,0.00038,0.000754,-0.003877,-0.033067,0.008285,0.017871,0.007832,-0.008143
    Steppe_EMBA_East:RISE681,0.093335,-0.1046,0.072784,0.098192,-0.065551,0.010877,-0.026556,-0.02123,-0.032315,-0.060867,0.004872,-0.004646,0.002081,-0.039911,0.022122,0.001989,-0.024251,-0.009502,0.000126,0.003252,-0.023334,0.011623,0.019473,0.00976,-0.003113
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I13173,0.071709,-0.219354,0.043746,0.047158,-0.074168,0.00251,-0.012456,-0.008307,-0.019021,-0.033167,-0.023871,-0.007793,0.00773,-0.02202,0.009365,0.000796,-0.005346,-0.004814,0.004651,0.00075,-0.026578,0.010387,-0.007518,0.004458,-0.000359
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6362,0.097888,-0.074134,0.052043,0.05491,-0.0437,0.012271,0.001645,0,-0.017385,-0.030251,-0.007957,-0.007044,-0.002973,-0.026424,0.016151,0.006762,-0.01343,-0.00038,0.004525,0.001501,-0.019341,0.00507,-0.007395,0.011929,-0.002634
    Steppe_EMBA_East:I6367,0.084229,-0.079211,0.053928,0.045543,-0.013849,0.013945,-0.00329,0.002077,-0.01268,-0.022415,-0.020623,-0.005545,-0.006095,-0.017203,0.025651,-0.011403,-0.028163,-0.001394,-0.004525,-0.001626,-0.010107,0.008532,-0.007148,0.003253,-0.002634
    I don't have the link at hand, but the R1b in Native Americans is M269, it is the result of mixing with early European colonisers.
    However, you're right, the Tarim Basin mummies and the Native Americans have common autosomal DNA and possibly also mtDNA as suggested by Dienekes.
    That is very interesting.
    The Tarim Basin mummies have R1b-PH155
    The common ancestor of R1b-PH155 is only 7300 years old, Native Americans arrived in America 15000 years ago. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PH155/
    The common autosomal DNA of Tarim Basin mummies and Native Americans must be 15000 years old or older.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I don't have the link at hand, but the R1b in Native Americans is M269, it is the result of mixing with early European colonisers.
    I have to strictly disagree here, we don't know Native American subclades til today. I bet they will turn out Z2103, so steppe invaders. The autosomal Altai_MLBA and Steppe_EMBA_East signals support my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    It is now the most common haplogroup after the various Q-M242, especially in North America, highest worldwide R1 rates among Great Lakes/Algonquian-speakers,[3] in Ojibwe people at 79%, Chipewyan 62%, Seminole 50%, Cherokee 47%, Dogrib 40% and Papago 38%. 97% of R1 had the M269 SNP (Single Nucleotide Polymorphism) wiki

    Kale
    07-08-2016, 04:34 PM
    I think this paper needs to be bookmarked somewhere on this forum whenever R1b and Native Americans come up...
    https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerFSIinpress.pdf (page 5)

    To simplify the results into three columns (Native American, Native American minus C and Q, European American)
    C: 9.0%, 0%, 0.1%
    E: 2.9%, 8.7%, 4.9%
    G: .3%, .9%, 3.8%
    I: 6.6%, 19.8%, 19.5%
    J: 1.6%, 4.8%, 3.4%
    Q: 58.1%, 0%, .7%
    R1*: 0%, 0%, .1%
    R-M17: 1.5%, 4.5%, 7.2%
    R-P25: .3%, .9%%, .6%
    R-M269: 21.9%, 65.7%, 58.3%

    They all add up to like 101-102% because of rounding.
    Compare the following two lines...
    71.1% R, 4.8% J, 19.8% I, .9% G
    71.5% R, 3.5% J, 20.5% I, 1.5% G
    The first line is Native Americans (minus obvious C and Q lineages), the second line is English.

    This map should be fairly enough: Y chromosome R haplogroup among Native Americans (Malhi et al., 2008), and population density map.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    I have to strictly disagree here, we don't know Native American subclades til today. I bet they will turn out Z2103, so steppe invaders. The autosomal Altai_MLBA and Steppe_EMBA_East signals support my view.
    the subclades are known, but as I said, I don't have the link

    the Ojibwe were trading with French traders along the great lakes even before European colonisers arrived inland
    that how the Ojibwe got firearms and became dominant along the great lakes and further west
    but they did not only get firearms, they also got a lot of R1b-M269 from these French traders

    check the history of the Ojibwe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    I have to strictly disagree here, we don't know Native American subclades til today. I bet they will turn out Z2103, so steppe invaders. The autosomal Altai_MLBA and Steppe_EMBA_East signals support my view.
    well, here it is, Johen just provided a link :

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post



    Kale
    07-08-2016, 04:34 PM

    I think this paper needs to be bookmarked somewhere on this forum whenever R1b and Native Americans come up...
    https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerFSIinpress.pdf (page 5)

    To simplify the results into three columns (Native American, Native American minus C and Q, European American)
    C: 9.0%, 0%, 0.1%
    E: 2.9%, 8.7%, 4.9%
    G: .3%, .9%, 3.8%
    I: 6.6%, 19.8%, 19.5%
    J: 1.6%, 4.8%, 3.4%
    Q: 58.1%, 0%, .7%
    R1*: 0%, 0%, .1%
    R-M17: 1.5%, 4.5%, 7.2%
    R-P25: .3%, .9%%, .6%
    R-M269: 21.9%, 65.7%, 58.3%

    They all add up to like 101-102% because of rounding.
    Compare the following two lines...
    71.1% R, 4.8% J, 19.8% I, .9% G
    71.5% R, 3.5% J, 20.5% I, 1.5% G
    The first line is Native Americans (minus obvious C and Q lineages), the second line is English.

    alongside R1b-M269 the Native Americans also have other European Y-DNA like G, I and J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the subclades are known, but as I said, I don't have the link
    I doubt there is a link to a study with Native American subclades. There is no study til today. I know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the Ojibwe were trading with French traders along the great lakes even before European colonisers arrived inland that how the Ojibwe got firearms and became dominant along the great lakes and further west
    but they did not only get firearms, they also got a lot of R1b-M269 from these French traders
    check the history of the Ojibwe
    There are no European alleles among Native American R1b. Their R1b directly comes from Sibeian P1 clades moving into Americas 6000 years ago. So they are most likely of WSH R1b origin migrating to the East. Here is the link to the study: Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans (nih.gov)

    Check the population density map, it confirms it. There is no relation between European colonisers and Native American R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    well, here it is, Johen just provided a link :
    The link "provided" says nothing and nothing. Malhi et al., 2008 confirms me. Did you already saw the populations density comparison map?

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    alongside R1b-M269 the Native Americans also have other European Y-DNA like G, I and J.
    This is no argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    This is no argument.
    However, those numbers are too perfect to be true, aren't they?

    "71.1% R, 4.8% J, 19.8% I, .9% G

    71.5% R, 3.5% J, 20.5% I, 1.5% G
    The first line is Native Americans (minus obvious C and Q lineages), the second line is English."

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    02-04-15
    Location
    Saray
    Posts
    106

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    L1b Elite Hun

    Ethnic group
    Turkic/Iranian
    Country: Kazakhstan



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    However, those numbers are too perfect to be true, aren't they?

    "71.1% R, 4.8% J, 19.8% I, .9% G

    71.5% R, 3.5% J, 20.5% I, 1.5% G
    The first line is Native Americans (minus obvious C and Q lineages), the second line is English."
    J, I and G are typical for CHG, Yamnaya and Maykop. Nothing unusual.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    454


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpakut View Post
    J, I and G are typical for CHG, Yamnaya and Maykop. Nothing unusual.
    I rest my case.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-05-21
    Posts
    234


    Ethnic group
    southern EUROPEAN
    Country: Spain



    They weren't IndoEuropeans after all.

    It turned out they were other peoples that also lived in the Steppes, but more in Central Siberia.
    They're most related today to Turkic peoples, like the Kirgyz, Tajik, Turkmen, Uyghur, Turks, Tartars...

    Which by the way also traded and were ready to contact people from long distances.

    Interestingly, some of these, have been farmers and nomad herders until pretty recently. So they have preserved those lifestyles kind of well.

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