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Thread: La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

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    Let's just say that I earned the infractions by venting my rage upon you in particular, on a subject entirely collateral to my reasons for frequenting this site. The hour was late, I had biked home at full speed along the Hudson, my veins engorged with red wine, no girlfriend to comfort me, energies redirected to internet warfare, etcetera, etcetera

    And not to butter you up, but it's mainly for your insights and Angela's that I make Eupedia a regular visit, as you are both exceedingly knowledgeable about Italian population genetics.

    So hopefully I learned my lesson, even if you didn't actually ban me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^The gradient of La Tène culture matches the map. The North down to Central, nearly 50% to 28%.

    After that, there seems to be a break with the south, I myself get about 6.5%. The modeling for the south still is primarily dependent on Catacomb and Minoan.
    Why does Southern Italy have more Catacomb than Northern Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^The gradient of La Tène culture matches the map. The North down to Central, nearly 50% to 28%.

    After that, there seems to be a break with the south, I myself get about 6.5%. The modeling for the south still is primarily dependent on Catacomb and Minoan.
    Setting 0.25 La Tène grows a bit. However, there is still undoubtedly a gradient.

    Sardinian never changes, but it has to be said that it always has the worst fit, and the academic sample used for the Sardinians from Ogliastra seems to be more isolated than other Sardinian samples.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Why does Southern Italy have more Catacomb than Northern Italy?
    Specifically regarding the calculator and this model, it must have something to do with higher Gedrosia. Part of it, in association to some North Euro (mainly), should generate Catacomb %.
    My father has the highest Gedrosia in K12b, and he does get more Catacomb than myself, my mother etc.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here are my results in ADC: 0.25x RC


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here are my results in ADC: 0.25x RC

    Is this ADC method more accurate at 0.25xRC?

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    @Malaparte/Dominique Nuit

    You have an extraordinary memory for my personal genetic data.

    The only calculator which labels me as Piemontese is the MDLP 16. The distance is still not great; 3.2. However, it's the closest I've gotten to any modern Italian population.

    The label of Piemontese for these samples is a bit of a misnomer, imo. The academic samples were collected from the Val Borbera, which is in the Appennines of the Piemonte region of Alessandria. That is a late political development, however. This is a Ligurian region; a Ligurian isolate, if you will, as much as it is Piemontese. Perhaps the best description is how they label themselves: the Quattro Province. Cuneo is quite different.

    From Wiki:
    The Val Borbera (Ligurian: Val Borbëa or Borbéia; Piedmontese: Val Borbaja) is a valley formed by the River Borbera, a tributary of the Scrivia, located in the province of Alessandria. It was historically linked to the Republic of Genoa, the Ligurian Republic and is still strongly tied to Liguria.[1][page needed]
    Geography[edit]

    This valley is wedged between Val Boreca (Piacenza) to the east; Val Vobbia, Val Brevenna and Alta Val Trebbia (Genoa) and Valle Spinti (Alessandria and Genoa) to the south; and Val Curone, Val Grue and Valley Ossona (Alessandria) to the north. It is bordered to the west by Valle Scrivia.
    History[edit]


    The Val Borbera is a large valley isolated from the surrounding areas by mountains and by a deep canyon on its western side. In the middle of 1800, the valley was inhabited by >10,000 people, living in seven villages located at about 400 to 800 m of altitude (Cantalupo Ligure, Albera Ligure, Rocchetta Ligure, Cabella Ligure, Carrega Ligure, Roccaforte Ligure and Mongiardino Ligure) in the Alessandria province

    The canyon as seen from above showing the Borbera river and the paralleling it

    The valley is surrounded by high mountains, making it a place isolated from the surrounding valleys, little touched by industrialization and with a well-preserved environment. Up until the beginning of the 20th century, there was no road connecting the upper with the lower valley, the main passageway being the gravel riverbed in the dry season. It is the only valley of Piedmont bordering on the Emilia-Romagna region.[citation needed]
    Until about the 1950s, viticulture was very widespread, especially in the lower valley. Today, a special grape variety is still cultivated in the valley, the Timorasso, which is known and appreciated even outside the valley. There are a lot of chestnut woods in the valley, but chestnuts are no longer harvested as before. Also, the water mills in the valley are no longer in operation, so chestnut flour is now produced outside the valley. Val Borbera is also known for a special kind of potatoes, namely the patata quarantina bianca genovese, and the fagiolane, a rather large, white bean that is very appreciated and used gastronomically in the Province of Alessandria.[2][page needed]
    Its population has been considered a genetic isolate.[3]


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    @Jovialis

    I noticed nobody gets Halstatt except the female sample R1 from Picene lands in Italy

    Why no North Italian gets it when Halstatt is Eastern Austria .......next door to Italy ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ... multi 0.25x RC and default



    Single 0.25X
    (I thought it would've been the same as the 0.25 multi, but it isn't)

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    @Jovialis
    I noticed nobody gets Halstatt except the female sample R1 from Picene lands in Italy
    Why no North Italian gets it when Halstatt is Eastern Austria .......next door to Italy ?
    La Tene, and Hallstatt are very similar, so it may be subsumed by the algorithm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Is this ADC method more accurate at 0.25xRC?
    I am not sure, tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Is this ADC method more accurate at 0.25xRC?
    Just my opinion, I think it's just multivariate statistics. It is not possible to get really completely accurate results, it is not like weighing sand or measuring water in a container. It is only possible to calculate probabilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Until about the 1950s, viticulture was very widespread, especially in the lower valley. Today, a special grape variety is still cultivated in the valley, the Timorasso, which is known and appreciated even outside the valley.
    Walter Massa's Timorasso = https://www.astorwines.com/SearchRes...htype=Contains

    And for a wine blogger who is exceptionally keen on Timorasso--some 25 individual posts--check out Mowse ==

    https://mowse.blogspot.com/search?q=timorasso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    La Tene, and Hallstatt are very similar, so it may be subsumed by the algorithm.
    ok

    500 years plus apart in starting times and they are similar !!?? ...............I have my doubts

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    ok

    500 years plus apart in starting times and they are similar !!?? ...............I have my doubts
    Why not just compare them in the calculator than.............................................. .................................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Why not just compare them in the calculator than.............................................. .................................
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    @Torzio, here are 2D and 3D visualizations of their genetic similarity.

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    Regarding the calculator designed by Jovialis -- Are the Iberomaurusian samples in Loosdrecht 2018 the same as the Taforalt samples discussed in the Lazaridis paper on Dzudzuana Cave, wherein he posited that Taforalt was a mix of a Dzudzuana-like population and some "deeper" ancestry?

    I imagine Iberomaurusian ancestry could have entered Italy through at least four movements:

    (1) Pre-Neolithic movements -- Is it possible that Iberomaurusians crossed over to Sicily and mixed with Villabruna-like WHG?

    (2) A Western Mediterranean trading network that had its first iteration in the Bronze Age, and a second iteration with Carthage and the Etruscans, with Sardinia an important node --->> Etruscans appear to have carried a significant percentage of Iberomaurusian, and Fernandes reported it in Sardinian samples

    (3) Migration from the Levant during the Imperial Era -- i.e., Iberomaurusian is partly constitutive of Natufian-descended peoples

    (4) Contact with Saracens

    Which is of these movements is likely the greatest source of Iberomaurusian on the western shores of Italy? My guess is #2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Out of curiosity, also if I'm only 1/4 Apulian and 3/16 northeastern Italian,the remaining being mostly other European
    Out of curiosity, if you're 1/4 Apulian and only 3/16 northeastern Italian and the remaining being mostly other European, why is your ethnic group "Friulian"?

    For your results, your distances seem too big.


    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    Etruscans appear to have carried a significant percentage of Iberomaurusian, and Fernandes reported it in Sardinian samples
    Etruscans did't have a significant percentage of Iberomaurusian. You are confusing with the foreigners, Punics or most likely Sardo-Punics, who were present in Etruria but who didn't change the genetic profile of the local population according to the latest study. The fact that someone is mixed is irrelevant for statistical purposes.

    Of course, some Sardinians mixed with the Punics but not all the Sardinians/Nuragics did so. Then here we would have to open a serious discussion on who the Punics really were. Because they in turn assimilated foreigners, such as Sardinians and Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Etruscans did't have a significant percentage of Iberomaurusian. You are confusing with the foreigners, Punics or Sardo-Punics, who were present in Etruria but who didn't change the genetic profile of the local population according to the latest study.

    Of course, some Sardinians mixed with the Punics but not all the Sardinians/Nuragics did so. Then here we would have to open a serious discussion on who the Punics really were. Because they in turn assimilated foreigners, such as Sardinians and Iberians.
    What about sample R145 from Antonio? Or was that a Sardo-Punic sample? When I say significant, I mean something around 5% Iberomaurusian.

    Further, I believe that you have "hinted" that Etruscan-like ancestry survived more in Campania than in Tuscany, despite Greek colony of Napoli -- or is that just my imagination?

    But what I am driving at, in my own naive & clumsy way, is that there must have been a Western Mediterranean zone of genetic exchange, encompassing Sardinia, Balearic Isles, Iberia, North Africa, Southwestern Italy. This zone of exchange may not have been as significant as the "genetic beltway" that ran from Anatolia across the Balkans and the Aegean, but it was still a factor in shaping Italians, especially along the Tyrrhenian coast. Tuscany was eventually submerged in Italic peoples who were already quite similar to Etruscans, but the Etruscan-like ancestry (carrying more C_Italian_N and C_Italian_ChL, but also more Iberomaurusian) survived in Campania and points southwest. That's my very rough theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    What about sample R145 from Antonio? Or was that a Sardo-Punic sample? When I say significant, I mean something around 5% Iberomaurusian.

    Further, I believe that you have "hinted" that Etruscan-like ancestry survived more in Campania than in Tuscany, despite Greek colony of Napoli -- or is that just my imagination?

    But what I am driving at, in my own naive & clumsy way, is that there must have been a Western Mediterranean zone of genetic exchange, encompassing Sardinia, Balearic Isles, Iberia, North Africa, Southwestern Italy. This zone of exchange may not have been as significant as the "genetic beltway" that ran from Anatolia across the Balkans and the Aegean, but it was still a factor in shaping Italians, especially along the Tyrrhenian coast. Tuscany was eventually submerged in Italic peoples who were already quite similar to Etruscans, but the Etruscan-like ancestry (carrying more C_Italian_N and C_Italian_ChL, but also more Iberomaurusian) survived in Campania and points southwest. That's my very rough theory.
    Based on what evidence, other than that you think so?

    If I were looking for "relict" populations I'd look for refugia, like perhaps in the Appennines, not near Napoli. You are aware that it's not only a port but that the surrounding countryside is a fertile, FLAT plain traipsed over by everybody and his brother, yes?

    As to Etruscan descent people carrying more Iberomaurisian, I think Pax addressed that quite nicely. The latest papers do not see that one admixed sample as denoting any significant presence or continuation of "North African" ancestry in Etruscans.

    Whether Saracens settled near Salento might have had a small impact I don't know, but Frederick Barbarossa, after using them, crushed the Saracens settled on the mainland, and the Spaniards, once they took over and imported the Inquisition, soon took care of the rest. Some y dna or mtDna may survive, but I doubt a lot of actual North African remains. I can speak for my husband, with both Neapolitan and Calabrian ancestry, and for the people with whom he shares at 23andme, and while they show surplus "Caucasus" ancestry, the North African is less than 2% in all of them, with most of them having about 1 to 1.5%, hardly anything to write home to mom about.

    Perhaps you've forgotten but we've had this discussion before. I'm not aware of any paper changing those essential facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    @Pax Augusta, I was born and grown up in a town in Friuli where most of my mix is common and seen as part of friulian ethnicity
    About results I checked more times, maybe my higher level of admixture from all the corners of Europe and some minor non euro component confuses the calculator
    It's fine to adopt the identity of the area where you were born; I did it here in the U.S.

    However, when the discussion is about genetics, it's best to be clear; you are more Pugliese than Friulan. I don't know the other more than 50% of your ancestry, but that may trump both those Italian regional genetic clusters.

    What is strange is that someone with only 1/4 Southern Italian ancestry should still show a mixture of Minoan and Catacomb, even if at such great distances.

    However, I wouldn't sweat it; these calculators aren't precision instruments. Only "through a glass darkly", if you know what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    What about sample R145 from Antonio? Or was that a Sardo-Punic sample? When I say significant, I mean something around 5% Iberomaurusian.
    Sample R475 from Necropolis La Mattonara on the seaside (Civitavecchia, Rome, Lazio) was indeed partially of Punic ancestry, according to the study she was 50% Punic and 50% Etruscan, but actually the sample Antonio used in the study to make the calculation is a sample from the Neolithic period in Morocco and If I remember correctly it was partly of Iberian Neolithic ancestry, and so probably that 50% of Punic was Sardo-Punic rather than properly Punic. The contacts between Etruscans and Punics were mediated by the Sardinians (still today Civitavecchia is not by chance one of the main ports to go from Mainland Italy to Sardinia). The point is that here and there were indeed people with this kind of ancestry but according to the latest study they were a tiny minority and not numerically enough to change the genetic profile of all Etruscans which remained unchanged for almost 1000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    Further, I believe that you have "hinted" that Etruscan-like ancestry survived more in Campania than in Tuscany, despite Greek colony of Napoli -- or is that just my imagination?
    Just your imagination, I can't have "hinted" it. The Etruscans were never numerically the dominant people in Campania, and their presence was due to settlers arriving from Lazio at the beginning of the Villanovan era (early Iron Age). At the beginning of the Second Iron Age, around 500-400 BC, the Etruscan presence in Campania was drastically reduced, almost to the point of disappearance, due to the expansion of the Oscans and possibly the Samnites as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    But what I am driving at, in my own naive & clumsy way, is that there must have been a Western Mediterranean zone of genetic exchange, encompassing Sardinia, Balearic Isles, Iberia, North Africa, Southwestern Italy. This zone of exchange may not have been as significant as the "genetic beltway" that ran from Anatolia across the Balkans and the Aegean, but it was still a factor in shaping Italians, especially along the Tyrrhenian coast. Tuscany was eventually submerged in Italic peoples who were already quite similar to Etruscans, but the Etruscan-like ancestry (carrying more C_Italian_N and C_Italian_ChL, but also more Iberomaurusian) survived in Campania and points southwest. That's my very rough theory.
    I confess that I got lost after the third line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    @Pax Augusta, I was born and grown up in a town in Friuli where most of my mix is common and seen as part of friulian ethnicity
    About results I checked more times, maybe my higher level of admixture from all the corners of Europe and some minor non euro component confuses the calculator
    Got it. It is true that nowadays in Italy people tend to identify themselves more and more with the place of birth and growth rather than with the place of ancestry, but I don't understand how the fact of not being of Friulian ancestry is seen as a characteristic of Friulian ethnicity.

    However, as Angela says, since we are talking about genetics, what really matters is ancestry and not how one identifies oneself.

    Calculators are not to be taken too seriously, and you, as I have already written, get results at very great distances.

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