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Thread: La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

  1. #51
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    It's interesting how E-V13 has showed consistently in La Tene sites, though in absolute minority but present very likely in Southern France, Czech Central Bohemia, Western Hungary, Western Slovakia.

    I think that E-V13 was a considerable lineage of the so called Eastern/Carpathian Urnfielders and participated in this culture but largely in South-Eastern variants like Gava, Piliny but also got integrated into more western variants and descendants of Urnfield like a minority Y-DNA in the sea of R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's interesting how E-V13 has showed consistently in La Tene sites, though in absolute minority but present very likely in Southern France, Czech Central Bohemia, Western Hungary, Western Slovakia.

    I think that E-V13 was a considerable lineage of the so called Eastern/Carpathian Urnfielders and participated in this culture but largely in South-Eastern variants like Gava, Piliny but also got integrated into more western variants and descendants of Urnfield like a minority Y-DNA in the sea of R1b.
    I am Predominantly Celtic Scandinavian with a Very small Dib of Magyar per FTDNA. I am E-V13>S2979>FT191655 and believe my paternal line had to have assimilated in with I1 or R1B people and went North. I am 10th Gen American and my Paternal Family is Goode from Southern England and Cornwall. Based on my research I believe they would have been Anglo-Saxon Migration to England. I am listed as S2979* Kentucky in YFULL I would appreciate any thoughts

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Based on what evidence, other than that you think so?

    If I were looking for "relict" populations I'd look for refugia, like perhaps in the Appennines, not near Napoli. You are aware that it's not only a port but that the surrounding countryside is a fertile, FLAT plain traipsed over by everybody and his brother, yes?

    As to Etruscan descent people carrying more Iberomaurisian, I think Pax addressed that quite nicely. The latest papers do not see that one admixed sample as denoting any significant presence or continuation of "North African" ancestry in Etruscans.

    Whether Saracens settled near Salento might have had a small impact I don't know, but Frederick Barbarossa, after using them, crushed the Saracens settled on the mainland, and the Spaniards, once they took over and imported the Inquisition, soon took care of the rest. Some y dna or mtDna may survive, but I doubt a lot of actual North African remains. I can speak for my husband, with both Neapolitan and Calabrian ancestry, and for the people with whom he shares at 23andme, and while they show surplus "Caucasus" ancestry, the North African is less than 2% in all of them, with most of them having about 1 to 1.5%, hardly anything to write home to mom about.

    Perhaps you've forgotten but we've had this discussion before. I'm not aware of any paper changing those essential facts.
    If we've had this discussion, I've forgotten it. You had a really long debate with Ygorcs on the Italian & Jewish thread that touched on this question, the details are a blur. Or if you are referring to a conversation involving me in particular, well, I am almost always motivated by trying to figure out how Calabria fits into the overall Italian scheme (though sometimes my interest is more detached). And I agree that there was not much Saracen influence on mainland Italy, it was passing and superficial. I'm suggesting, rather, a more "persistent" role for the Iberomaurusian component. So far as I know -- and I will be the first to admit my knowledge is paltry compared with most here -- the Central Italian Neolithic samples tend to be around 2% to 3% NW African. In much of Italy this percentage declined because the Italic tribes and Greek colonizers did not carry this ancestry, and so it got reduced to less than 1%. But it might well have persisted in coastal zones, i.e., the hillier coastal zones, population drift. (And yes, I realize that the Greeks colonized the coasts, but not every nook and cranny.)

    As for what study I would point to, I would say Fernandes.

    Let me stress that I do not want to overstate the amount of Iberomaurusian in certain Italians. I'm just trying to account for why it keeps appearing on calculators. Why do I carry 2.7% on the Jovialis calculator? What could be the explanation? Allowing for the possibility that my results are a mere contingency that pertains to nobody but me, I prefer to imagine that my score is related to the wider history of Italy.

    And, again, what exactly is Iberomaurusian anyway? Are we running with the Lazaridis theory that this component is Dzudzuana-like plus a branch of non-SSA that is "deeper" than Basal Eurasian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I confess that I got lost after the third line.
    That's okay. Sounds like I can trash that theory anyway.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    @Pax Augusta, I was born and grown up in a town in Friuli where most of my mix is common and seen as part of friulian ethnicity
    About results I checked more times, maybe my higher level of admixture from all the corners of Europe and some minor non euro component confuses the calculator
    my cousin is from Porcia, Pordenone , Friuli and he knows some Cescut ( if this is your surname ) people from Aviano, Pordenone, Friuli ..............where you originally from there .....as the Cescut my cousin knows says they came from Gorizia, Udine, Friuli
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of course, some Sardinians mixed with the Punics but not all the Sardinians/Nuragics did so. Then here we would have to open a serious discussion on who the Punics really were. Because they in turn assimilated foreigners, such as Sardinians and Iberians.
    With regard to Berbers as well as Sardinians and Iberians, I wonder how much these groups traded and sailed in the Western Mediterranean *before* their contact with Phoenicia-Carthage. Sardinians, or at least coastal Sardinians, were sea-farers as early as the Bronze Age, but I don't imagine the same of Berbers. Is this a correct assumption? And if they were traders & mariners, could this not lead to significant genetic exchange? I realize that by 500 BC or so, foreign traders were generally confined to merchant quarters in ports, but would this have been true in earlier times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Sample R475 from Necropolis La Mattonara on the seaside (Civitavecchia, Rome, Lazio) was indeed partially of Punic ancestry, according to the study she was 50% Punic and 50% Etruscan, but actually the sample Antonio used in the study to make the calculation is a sample from the Neolithic period in Morocco and If I remember correctly it was partly of Iberian Neolithic ancestry, and so probably that 50% of Punic was Sardo-Punic rather than properly Punic. The contacts between Etruscans and Punics were mediated by the Sardinians (still today Civitavecchia is not by chance one of the main ports to go from Mainland Italy to Sardinia). The point is that here and there were indeed people with this kind of ancestry but according to the latest study they were a tiny minority and not numerically enough to change the genetic profile of all Etruscans which remained unchanged for almost 1000 years.
    Yes, but couldn't there be local effects? Civitavecchia is a bad example for local effects, as it is so close to Rome. But in more remote coastal areas, contacts with various "Punic" peoples may have had enduring effects on local population structure.

    I accept the argument, often repeated on Eupedia, that the genetic impact of foreign merchant groups is ephemeral because urban areas, where merchants cluster, are population sinks. It is the native countryside population that expands demographically and effectively washes away residual alien elements.

    However, in earlier times, down to the close of the Bronze Age, much of the trade along the Italian coast was conducted by small trading posts that were natural extensions of the countryside, not cities proper. They weren't densely populated, afflicted by sewage and disease. Further, the social divide between traders, farmers and warriors may not have been a neat one (Dumezil's tripartite structure be damned). A foreign trader might have been more likely to take a local bride and see his children join a local farming community than in later ages.

    So maybe Iberomaurusian contacts had little effect on Etruscan or Italian populations at large, but had enduring local effects, whether in Sardinia or various points along the Tyrrhenian coast or the Aeolian islands.

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    … one Francesco/a nickname is Checco/a … ch = k in Italian

  8. #58
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    @Cescut … your Iberomaurusian is too elevated, You did not inherit it from southern Italians, … It must have come from somewhere else, … I think.

  9. #59
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Cescut … your Iberomaurusian is too elevated, You did not inherit it from southern Italians, … It must have come from somewhere else, … I think.
    That is because he is a t-roll, and his numbers are completely invented. Here is the modeling vs all other modern populations in the Dodecad set. His numbers are not possible.

    The order is by goodness of fit; Italians are the best.


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    The modeling works pretty well for Iberians too, if you use a bit of mental gymnastics, to understand how the components used can be proxies.

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    ^^I must be on to something, because Italians (and Iberians) come out better than anyone else in the world using these populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    That is because he is a t-roll, and his numbers are completely invented. Here is the modeling vs all other modern populations in the Dodecad set. His numbers are not possible.

    The order is by goodness of fit; Italians are the best.

    Most of these t-rolls know so little about Italy they can't even make up a plausible back story for themselves.

    Others are so crazy that eventually the control slips and all the crazy comes pouring out like a torrent; the written version of forced manic speech. It's sad really; the poor families.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    There are definitely some disturbed thoughts being posted by these loonies.

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    In mixed mode I get better fits by modeling the samples selected by Jovialis with samples from Sardinia, Remedello and Saupe et al (Broion, Gattolino, Regina Margherita and La Sassa). I'm a mixed Iberian, mostly North Portuguese and Andalusian.

    Original post of Jovialis:




    Mixed mode adding samples from Sardinia, Remedello and Saupe et al (Broion, Gattolino, Regina Margherita and La Sassa):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    https://www.worldhistory.org/image/1...-tene-culture/

    Much praise to Maciamo for processing the Paterson et al. 2021 samples, and sharing them with me. I will include them in an update of the Individual samples for the aDNA catalog for Dodecad K12b.

    I have included La Tène, and Hallstatt samples, in the modeling I had previously used for ancient and modern Italians, ( Hungarian_BA:BR2, Catacomb, C_Italian_N, C_Italian_ChL, Minoan, Iberomarusian)

    Code:
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
    Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
    Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
    Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
    Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
    Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
    Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
    Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014,1.09,0,0.38,0,36.78,41.52,0,0,3.74,0,16.14,0.36
    C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.77,0.12,60.45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
    C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.76,0,63.45,3.27,0,0,10.15,0,20.2,0.17
    C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.67,0,64.87,0.54,0,0,0,0,31.92,0
    C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.61,0,54.5,0,0,0.17,12.44,0,29.12,0.16
    C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.22,0,52.75,0,0,0,11.28,0.2,31.18,0.38
    C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11.16,0,0.32,7.34,0.2,9.11,0
    C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.42,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.2,0.44,29.46,0.24
    C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.58,0,50.8,0,0,0,13.79,0,32.49,0.34
    C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.35,0,53.37,0,0,0,13.76,0,29.52,0
    C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.41,0,57.73,1.14,0,0,9.12,0.21,28.3,0.09
    C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.12,0,50.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
    C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.72,0,51.41,0,0,0.09,10.24,0,34.54,0
    C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.33,0,55.74,0.85,0,0,9.83,0,29.26,0
    Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018,0,3.54,60.38,2.05,0,0,2.48,18.95,8.83,0,0,3.78
    Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.55,63.9,3.27,0,0.17,1.39,18.7,5.98,0,0,6.05
    Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.28,64.11,2.45,0,0.07,0.7,18.22,5.74,0.18,0,7.24
    Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.79,63.81,0.8,0.44,0,3.27,16.18,5.76,0.59,0,7.35
    Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.07,61.84,2.72,0,0.02,1.89,18.58,6.99,0,0,6.89
    Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.74,62.76,2.95,0,0,2.12,18.14,5.34,0,0,7.95
    Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0,62.82,1.87,0,0.9,0,15.76,6.67,3.45,0,8.52
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781,6.20,0.00,0.00,0.14,38.66,39.72,0.85,0.00,2.30,0.67,10.26,1.20
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980,0.65,0,3.67,0,41.76,30.94,0,0,6.19,0,16.55,0.23
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983,4.66,0.11,0.74,0.18,35.81,41.52,0.39,0,1.8,0,14.18,0.61
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071,5.13,0.00,2.36,0.00,38.23,39.29,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00,14.03,0.52
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088,5.87,2.57,0.00,0.00,38.83,39.71,0.00,0.00,3.62,0.00,8.54,0.86
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092,0.00,0.00,4.08,0.00,59.70,12.92,0.00,0.00,6.68,0.07,16.15,0.41
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326,3.57,0.00,0.37,1.34,33.64,48.74,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.19,7.01,1.64
    Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327,6.72,0,0,0,38.03,40.63,0,0.07,4.2,1.47,7.85,1.02
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227,3.73,0.00,2.56,0.10,37.43,38.27,0.11,0.29,3.18,0.29,13.84,0.2
    La_Tène:Austria_I11699,4.19,0,1.44,0,41.59,32.68,0,0.82,4.89,0,14.38,0.01
    La_Tène:Austria_I11701,5.29,0.3,0.06,0.66,39.07,29.93,0,0,4.92,0,19.15,0.61
    La_Tène:Austria_I11708,1.23,1.05,0,0.31,39.79,32.82,0.19,0,6.08,0,17.86,0.66
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712,6.95,0,0.08,0.12,39.88,38.44,0,0,3.58,0,10,0.94
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11713,3.46,0.21,0.11,0,40.46,38.98,1.4,0.41,3.55,0,10.52,0.89
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715,6.92,0.29,2.98,0,41.55,37.22,0,0,1.97,0,9.08,0
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716,0.74,0,0.22,1.14,40.3,32.92,0.69,0,3.69,0,19.61,0.7
    La_Tène:Czechia_I13780,5.38,1.33,0,0,32.76,48.77,1.77,0,0,0,7.56,2.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14984,6.26,0.51,0.61,0,40.39,35.64,1.22,0,2.95,0,11.64,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14985,4.29,0,1.4,1.01,40.26,38.95,0,0,0.33,0,12.99,0.78
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14986,5.97,0,0.77,0,38.96,34.65,1.11,0,3.93,0.21,13.55,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14987,6.43,0.9,0,0,37.01,41.05,0.6,0,2.69,0,10.88,0.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14988,4.53,0.85,0.32,0,35.88,37.63,0.74,0.22,2.82,0.12,16.9,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15039,5.35,0,1.19,0.39,38.55,40.86,0,0.16,1.07,0,11.66,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15040,6.9,0,0.37,0,33.57,44.72,0,0,2.07,0.22,11.96,0.19
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15042,3.47,0.8,0.2,0.13,44.35,31.51,0,0,5.22,0,13.52,0.8
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15043,4.29,0.88,2.1,0,44.01,35.76,0,0,0,0,12.67,0.28
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15044,7.62,1.53,0.28,0,40.01,41,0,0.71,0.89,0.27,7,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15045,9.49,0,0,0,34.78,46.32,1.89,0,0,0,6.2,1.33
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15046,5.2,1.05,1.14,0,43.61,34.94,0,0,1.53,0,12.22,0.31
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15047,3.93,0,0,0.22,34.94,37.96,0,0,4.24,0,17.84,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15048,5.3,0.74,0.77,0,40.79,37.41,0.23,0,3.89,0.23,10.49,0.17
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15049,8.92,0,0.15,0.46,37.94,47.13,1.02,0,0,0,2.74,1.63
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15950,10.47,1.57,0,0,33.96,46.93,0,0,0,0,5.89,1.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15951,3.16,0.14,1.48,0.12,38.76,42.27,0,0,2.5,0.08,10.45,1.04
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15952,4.95,0,1.78,0.88,39.05,34.78,1.37,0,2.98,0,13.45,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15953,5.79,0.98,0.24,0,39.9,37.06,0,0.94,2.66,0,12.25,0.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15954,5.18,0.26,0.82,0,43.27,33.25,1.54,0.8,2.62,0,11.64,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16268,8.79,0.24,0,0.06,34.04,51.76,1.42,0.52,0,0.18,2.23,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16269,8.78,0,0.27,0,29.22,44.7,0.11,0,3.07,0.96,12.88,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16270,12.7,1.80,1.81,0.00,34.56,45.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.37,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16271,5.6,0,1.47,0.06,44.02,34.86,0,0.1,2.48,0,10.74,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16272,8.03,0.69,0.00,0.00,31.58,49.44,0.00,0.62,0.84,0.04,7.67,1.10
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16273,10.04,0,0.73,0,34.02,44.93,0,0,0,0,9.82,0.46
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17139,2.69,0.04,1.28,0.26,38.8,28.7,0,0,4.4,0.09,22.51,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17143,5.12,0.49,1.48,0.86,43.13,33.7,0,0,2.33,0,12.21,0.67
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17145,2.3,0.3,0.43,0,41.29,35.07,0,0,4.78,0.36,14.51,0.95
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17146,5.65,0.64,1.76,0.05,45.71,33.25,0,0.56,3.92,0,7.79,0.66
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17313,13.7,1.02,0,0,35.61,47.62,0,0,0,0,0.97,1.09
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17314,5.85,1.32,0.00,0.00,41.56,36.74,0.00,0.57,3.45,0.00,9.87,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17315,4.93,0,4.08,0,35,41.51,1.24,0.64,1.36,0,11.25,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17316,13.42,0.65,0,0,25.62,47.4,0,1.28,0,0,10.27,1.36
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17317,3.11,0.22,0.00,0.36,32.01,49.73,0.73,0.63,0.00,0.68,10.93,1.60
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17320,5.52,0,0.22,0,30.04,48.88,0,0,0,0.01,13.2,2.13
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17321,6.61,0,1.37,0.9,41.3,36.61,0,0,2.5,0,10.22,0.47
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17322,10.44,0.25,0,0,28.23,54.81,0.06,1.64,0,0,3.84,0.73
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17323,4.86,0,1.71,1.51,46.77,31.05,0.65,0,1.76,0,10.83,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17327,9.99,0.00,0.00,1.81,31.56,52.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,1.88
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18110,4.68,0,0.3,0,41.31,39.19,0,0,2.15,0,11.6,0.77
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18181,0,0,0,1.79,36.62,40.13,0,0,6.28,0,15.18,0
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18182,3.74,0.64,0.26,1.37,33.44,44.42,0.5,0,1.76,0,12.92,0.94
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18183,4,0,0,0.22,26.55,52.28,1.06,0,1.02,0.46,13.62,0.79
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18220,2.2,0.52,0,0,37.2,35.39,0,0,2.78,1.4,19.78,0.74
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18226,6.19,1.77,0,0.62,16.76,58.11,0.31,0,1.82,0,13.32,1.09
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18489,4.74,0.5,1.97,0.97,37.64,32.44,0,0,3.52,0.67,16.94,0.61


    Here are the various settlements in Italy 350 BC. It is around the same time as the map above for Le Tène Culture (400 BC - 50 BC).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    With regard to Berbers as well as Sardinians and Iberians, I wonder how much these groups traded and sailed in the Western Mediterranean *before* their contact with Phoenicia-Carthage. Sardinians, or at least coastal Sardinians, were sea-farers as early as the Bronze Age, but I don't imagine the same of Berbers. Is this a correct assumption? And if they were traders & mariners, could this not lead to significant genetic exchange? I realize that by 500 BC or so, foreign traders were generally confined to merchant quarters in ports, but would this have been true in earlier times?





    So maybe Iberomaurusian contacts had little effect on Etruscan or Italian populations at large, but had enduring local effects, whether in Sardinia or various points along the Tyrrhenian coast or the Aeolian islands.
    There's that Berber-like sample from a copper age tomb in Sardinia, in the necropolis of Anghelu Ruju. It's hard to say how or why that North African got there, but there was certainly a trade of elephant ivory from Africa to Sardinia during that period as we know from finds from Sardinian copper age tombs.

    Anyway, regarding possible Etruscan-Punic interactions mediated by Sardinia, there's the famous "tessera hospitalis" from 6th century bc Rome (Rome was under Etruscan rule back then):


    "In addition, at the rear of the podium, an Etruscan inscription was found on the back of a tessera hospitalis (a token of
    guest friendship made between aristocratic families of different cities) to “Araz silqetenas spurianas” (Adornato 2003:814; Pallottino 1979:319-325). According to Colonna (1981; 1988:467) this inscription refers to a man named Spurianas (or Spurinas) from Tarquinia and the other perhaps to a man named Araz of Sulcis from Sardinia; this inscription underscores the connections between Etruria and S. Omobono."

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    Target: Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    Distance: 0.9485% / 0.00948526
    41.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    18.8 HUN_IA_La_Tene
    15.2 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
    11.2 GRC_Mycenaean
    10.2 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
    3.6 ITA_Sicily_EBA


    Target: Italian_Umbria
    Distance: 1.4882% / 0.01488194
    31.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    29.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
    20.2 GRC_Mycenaean
    19.6 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA


    Target: Italian_Calabria
    Distance: 1.3958% / 0.01395826
    37.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
    33.6 GRC_Mycenaean
    14.8 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
    7.8 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
    6.8 HUN_IA_La_Tene

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    ^^weren't you someone on Anthrogenica?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^weren't you someone on Anthrogenica?
    Yes, but that was a while ago. I was a moderator, but stepped down and asked for my account to be closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    Yes, but that was a while ago. I was a moderator, but stepped down and asked for my account to be closed.
    Ah, yes, I remember now.

    Anyway, in regards to your model, I see you probably subscribe to Posth et al. 2021's proposed model, with the use of Alalakh_LMBA.

    Personally, I speculate that Minoan-like populations are plausible in place of a pre-Indo-European proto-Mediterranean basal population. I guess we will need to see what further evidence may show.

    Last edited by Jovialis; 09-01-22 at 04:51.

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    Here's an excerpt I found on Catacomb Culture, and it's association it Italy, Greece, and Central Europe from the Encyclopedia of Indo-Europeans (1997)

    It also seems to suggest a common background for Greeks, Armenians, and Indo-Iranians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's an excerpt I found on Catacomb Culture, and it's association it Italy, Greece, and Central Europe from the Encyclopedia of Indo-Europeans (1997)

    It also seems to suggest a common background for Greeks, Armenians, and Indo-Iranians.

    At that time was suggested that Armenians came from Balkans to justify the Greek connection. Now we known that is not true.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    At that time was suggested that Armenians came from Balkans to justify the Greek connection. Now we known that is not true.
    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    I'm of the persuasion that the proto-Greeks either came from Sintashta or Catacomb, as there are archeological links. Armenians and Indo-Iranians probably share a common ancestry from the same steppe sources with Ancient Greeks.

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    Mycenaeans and other Ancient Greek samples using Sintashta, Catacomb, and Minoan:



    Here is the same model, with Sintashta, and Catacomb labeled as Steppe. Looks consistent with the modeling of Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Clemente et al. 2021:


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    La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'm of the persuasion that the proto-Greeks either came from Sintashta or Catacomb, as there are archeological links. Armenians and Indo-Iranians probably share a common ancestry from the same steppe sources with Ancient Greeks.
    The connection with Sintashta-Petrovka is well known and largely supported by Drews. I have discussed this in the past. The difference with you is that he suggests a Caucasian route. Since the Armenian connection, that was used in the past to support Carpathian route does no longer stands, than the opposite seem true.
    Last edited by blevins13; 10-01-22 at 06:16.

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