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Thread: La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

  1. #101
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: Here are how the C6 Romans from Antonio et al 2019 fit using the model you put together, with assist from Duarte adding the Yamnaya. The Average Distance for the C6 Romans is 0.7025. Very good Model for the C6 Roman Cluster. I know you, Salento and I have always plotted well vs. the C6 Roman Cluster from Antonio et al. 2019 [ My results for this model are reported in post #100].For the C7 Romans, the fit is 0.54. very, very good there as well.

    For the C5 the fit is 6.13, C4 16.08, the C3 2.2 (The Iberomaurusian explains 21% of that cluster). The C2 fits exceptionally well with a distance of 0.17 and the C1 has a fit of 15.49.


    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 17-01-22 at 19:33. Reason: formatting

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    This is what happens when I add Anatolian_BA and Mycenaean to the model. Now R850 gets a much better fit, and is almost completely Anatolian_BA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    This is what happens when I add Anatolian_BA and Mycenaean to the model. Now R850 gets a much better fit, and is almost completely Anatolian_BA.
    since I have no Asia Minor ......but have Yamnaya
    which is why I fit with all the "yellows"


    the last company to have me having some percentage of Asia Minor was Ftdna .................they gave up on this 2 years ago
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    since I have no Asia Minor ......but have Yamnayawhich is why I fit with all the "yellows"the last company to have me having some percentage of Asia Minor was Ftdna .................they gave up on this 2 years ago
    High Yamnaya results in this model are from steppe ancestry not subsumed by Le Tene, Hallstatt, or BR2.

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    Some of the Yamnaya may also be representative of WHG. In Dodecad, both WHG and Steppe get "Northern European", so they are hard to determine due to overlap, with this tool

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't have it organized the way I want, atm because I'm busy with family stuff today. But here is the new model with some very interesting results. Catacomb has been eliminated, mostly by Sintashta, but I also put in a few other steppe populations, and LBA Central and Northern European populations. Le Tene has been greatly reduced in many areas.

    I'll repost this later, organized by geography.

    Despite all the new additions, none of them fit me better than Yamnaya.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Again, a nice work.
    With the populations above (footer posts #s 106 and 107) my results are the following.



    Adding to them all Iberian populations MLN/CA my results change to these. At distances below 1.34 the presence of (Anatolia_BA + Nordic_BA) at high percentages in the sorted populations displayed by the algorithm is a curious fact to me because I can’t imagine these two pops in my admixture. That means that I am so mixed that at low distances I can’t obtain a satisfactory admixture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:

    Dear Jovialis.
    When I add to the same populations that you selected above the ‘Beaker’ populations (Bell_Beaker, Beaker_The_Netherlands, Beaker_Southern_France, Beaker_Northern_Italy, Beaker_Iberia, Beaker_Central_Europe, Beaker_Britain), in my specific case the ‘Corded Ware’ is substituted by the ‘Beaker’, and ‘Catacomb’ is replaced by ‘Anatolia_BA’ and I get a better fit, that is, under 3.

    Before (post #108)


    Now with ‘Beaker’ added

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Nice model, I'll experiment with it more later.An observation I made from the chart I posted is that Iberians are best fit with Italian_N, Italians are best fit with Minoans, (and some copper age Italian in the North), Balkans are best fit with Anatolian BA. It is like the non-steppe ancestry is shifted to the east for all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Nice model, I'll experiment with it more later.An observation I made from the chart I posted is that Iberians are best fit with Italian_N, Italians are best fit with Minoans, (and some copper age Italian in the North), Balkans are best fit with Anatolian BA. It is like the non-steppe ancestry is shifted to the east for all of them.

    I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

    Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...384v1.full.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

    Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...384v1.full.pdf
    There are Anatolians outliers in Roman Macedonia and this ancestry affected Bulgarians too. Also many Armenians and Syrians settled in Thrace during the Middle Ages, that were likely assimilated by Bulgarians too to a certain extend even though the great majority of them were probably Turkified.

    If the Serb-like Slavic samples that Davidski saw are from the 9th century, then it means modern Bulgarians have more southern related ancestry.
    Last edited by ihype02; 17-01-22 at 22:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

    Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...384v1.full.pdf
    Even modern-day Sardinians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:

    Very interesting work, Jovialis.

    The switch from the Nordic Bronze Age heavy English to the La Tene heavy "Celtic fringe" groups is extremely clear and mirrors what we know of the migration patterns of the Anglo-Saxons in the British Isles.

    Your method also clearly captures the Corded Ware in eastern Europe, and its paucity in the west and south of Europe, again mirroring what we know of migration patterns. You can clearly see the decline with movement to the west, with Sweden having more than Norway, and Germany in between, while the Dutch have virtually none. I would bet that in Germany too it would decline from Eastern Germany to Western and Southwestern Germany.

    You can see it in the Greeks as well, which makes sense as the Greek sample is from Thessaly, and then look how some even made it to Southern Italy, probably, I would submit, with Greek migration, leading to the phenomenon that in Italy it declines as one goes from south to north.

    It's also in the Ashkenazim, which mirrors IBD analyses showing absorption of Eastern European ancestry in them. It's a great way to visualize the differences between the Ashkenazim, the Sephardim, and Moroccan Jews, as well. Furthermore, for all the talk about how genetically similar Jews are to Southern Italians/Sicilians, this shows that although when only looking at two dimensions, as on a PCA, they may plot near one another, the component percentages are different.

    I also find it interesting that while the Anatolian Bronze Age shows up in the Balkans (Romanians, Bulgarians etc.), Greeks, and Southern Italians/Sicilians, it doesn't show up in Northern Italians, Tuscans, or Central Italians. Minoan does show up in them, however, constituting at least 40% in Tuscans, but declining sharply after that. Neither shows up in Iberians, leaving them up to and exceeding 50% Neolithic, Chalcolithic and more, if one considers that groups like Hallstatt and La Tene are also heavily Neolithic.

    As far as Tuscans are concerned I don't see much of a difference between TSI and Tuscan HGDP, as I've always maintained. Northwestern Tuscans/Emilians like the Lunigianesi might be different.

    Turning to the ancient samples, it's also clear from this analyses that the "Minoan" component was definitely present in Iron Age Italy, and this doesn't include ancient Southern Italian samples. It will be very interesting to see those samples when they're made available, as it would be to see the Sicilian Bronze Age samples analyzed in this way.

    All in all it's amazing how well this analysis correlates with the findings of academic papers.

    Congratulation, Jovialis. :)


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    Thanks Angela! This was a lot of fun to put together too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thanks Angela! This was a lot of fun to put together too.
    Would it be possible for you to combine all 14 elements to use with K12b on Vahaduo.Thanks.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Sure thing, here is what I used:

    Code:
    Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015,26.6,1.31,0,0,7.93,64.16,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015,22.07,0,0,0,0,70.45,0,0,0,0,7.49,0
    Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015,26.54,0,0,0,10.09,63.38,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015,27.76,0,0.93,0,3.91,65.86,0,0,0,0,1.35,0.19
    Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015,23.64,0.86,0,0,9.61,64.98,0.74,0,0,0,0,0.17
    Yamnaya:RISE552:Allentoft_2015,30.94,1.6,0,0.01,2.06,61.11,0.39,0,0,0,3.1,0.78
    Yamnaya:I0231_SVP3:Haak_2015,28.48,2.19,0,0,1.43,59.76,2.73,0,0,0,4.53,0.89
    Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015,31.45,0.86,0,0.77,4.05,54.56,2.22,0,0,0,6.09,0
    Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015,24.66,6.11,0,0,0,59.29,0,0,0,0,9.32,0.62
    Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015,26.2,3.3,0,0,2.84,64.62,2.03,0,0,0,0,1
    Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015,23.9,4.62,0,0,0,60.95,1.32,0.31,0,0,8.64,0.26
    Yamnaya:I0439_SVP52:Haak_2015,22.28,1.63,0,0,12.89,54.54,0.24,0,0,0,8.41,0
    Yamnaya:I0441_SVP54:Haak_2015,33.48,1.54,0,0,0,56.53,8.46,0,0,0,0,0
    Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015,28.03,2.76,0,0,5.5,59.49,0,0,0,0,3.22,1
    Yamnaya:I0444_SVP58:Haak_2015,30.94,0.57,0,0,3.61,59.43,0,0.11,0,0,2.51,2.83
    Yamnaya:MJ-06:Jarve_2019,25.85,2.18,0,0,7.49,54.14,0,0.01,0,0,7.93,2.4
    Yamnaya:I1917:Mathieson_2018,25.24,1.78,0,0.15,8.03,36.55,0.44,0,0.38,0,25.75,1.68
    Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018,25.39,2.85,0,0,1.94,58.76,1.17,0,0,0,8.18,1.72
    Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018,24.66,4.21,0,0,2.47,64.51,1.21,0,0,0,2.93,0
    Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
    Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
    Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
    Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
    Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
    Sintashta:RISE386:Allentoft_2015,15.34,0.38,0,0,24.56,55.73,0,0,0,0,3.31,0.68
    Sintashta:RISE391:Allentoft_2015,21.58,0,1.04,0,23.99,46.8,0,0,0,0,6.6,0
    Sintashta:RISE392:Allentoft_2015,12.29,0,0.39,0,30.03,57.18,0,0,0,0,0,0.11
    Sintashta:RISE394:Allentoft_2015,16.36,0,0,0,26.29,56.64,0,0,0,0,0.71,0
    Sintashta:RISE395:Allentoft_2015,14.51,0,0,0,30.54,54.26,0,0,0,0,0.16,0.52
    Corded_Ware:RISE00:Allentoft_2015,10.49,0.15,0,0,31.63,56.79,0.94,0,0,0,0,0
    Corded_Ware:RISE1:Allentoft_2015,9.53,2.23,0,0,20.52,67.27,0,0,0,0,0.46,0
    Corded_Ware:RISE434:Allentoft_2015,15.93,0,0,0,23.21,60.04,0,0,0,0,0,0.82
    Corded_Ware:RISE435:Allentoft_2015,1.49,0,0,0,21.13,68.03,0,0,0,0,9.36,0
    Corded_Ware:RISE436:Allentoft_2015,4.85,0,0,0,33.39,44.75,0,0.03,0,3.08,12.21,1.7
    Corded_Ware:RISE446:Allentoft_2015,10.44,0,0,0,25.54,64.02,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Nordic_BA:RISE21:Allentoft_2015,4.12,0,0,5.51,46.97,43.4,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Nordic_BA:RISE47:Allentoft_2015,4.99,0,0,0,37.63,55.78,0,0,0,0,1.6,0
    Nordic_BA:RISE175:Allentoft_2015,0,0,0,0,44.56,55.44,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Nordic_BA:RISE207:Allentoft_2015,0,0,0,0,34.31,62.47,0,0,0,0,0,3.22
    Nordic_BA:RISE210:Allentoft_2015,10.3,0,0,0,40.72,43.49,0,0,0,0,5.5,0
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781,6.20,0.00,0.00,0.14,38.66,39.72,0.85,0.00,2.30,0.67,10.26,1.20
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980,0.65,0,3.67,0,41.76,30.94,0,0,6.19,0,16.55,0.23
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983,4.66,0.11,0.74,0.18,35.81,41.52,0.39,0,1.8,0,14.18,0.61
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071,5.13,0.00,2.36,0.00,38.23,39.29,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00,14.03,0.52
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088,5.87,2.57,0.00,0.00,38.83,39.71,0.00,0.00,3.62,0.00,8.54,0.86
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092,0.00,0.00,4.08,0.00,59.70,12.92,0.00,0.00,6.68,0.07,16.15,0.41
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326,3.57,0.00,0.37,1.34,33.64,48.74,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.19,7.01,1.64
    Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327,6.72,0,0,0,38.03,40.63,0,0.07,4.2,1.47,7.85,1.02
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227,3.73,0.00,2.56,0.10,37.43,38.27,0.11,0.29,3.18,0.29,13.84,0.2
    Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014,1.09,0,0.38,0,36.78,41.52,0,0,3.74,0,16.14,0.36
    La_Tène:Austria_I11699,4.19,0,1.44,0,41.59,32.68,0,0.82,4.89,0,14.38,0.01
    La_Tène:Austria_I11701,5.29,0.3,0.06,0.66,39.07,29.93,0,0,4.92,0,19.15,0.61
    La_Tène:Austria_I11708,1.23,1.05,0,0.31,39.79,32.82,0.19,0,6.08,0,17.86,0.66
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712,6.95,0,0.08,0.12,39.88,38.44,0,0,3.58,0,10,0.94
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11713,3.46,0.21,0.11,0,40.46,38.98,1.4,0.41,3.55,0,10.52,0.89
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715,6.92,0.29,2.98,0,41.55,37.22,0,0,1.97,0,9.08,0
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716,0.74,0,0.22,1.14,40.3,32.92,0.69,0,3.69,0,19.61,0.7
    La_Tène:Czechia_I13780,5.38,1.33,0,0,32.76,48.77,1.77,0,0,0,7.56,2.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14984,6.26,0.51,0.61,0,40.39,35.64,1.22,0,2.95,0,11.64,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14985,4.29,0,1.4,1.01,40.26,38.95,0,0,0.33,0,12.99,0.78
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14986,5.97,0,0.77,0,38.96,34.65,1.11,0,3.93,0.21,13.55,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14987,6.43,0.9,0,0,37.01,41.05,0.6,0,2.69,0,10.88,0.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14988,4.53,0.85,0.32,0,35.88,37.63,0.74,0.22,2.82,0.12,16.9,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15039,5.35,0,1.19,0.39,38.55,40.86,0,0.16,1.07,0,11.66,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15040,6.9,0,0.37,0,33.57,44.72,0,0,2.07,0.22,11.96,0.19
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15042,3.47,0.8,0.2,0.13,44.35,31.51,0,0,5.22,0,13.52,0.8
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15043,4.29,0.88,2.1,0,44.01,35.76,0,0,0,0,12.67,0.28
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15044,7.62,1.53,0.28,0,40.01,41,0,0.71,0.89,0.27,7,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15045,9.49,0,0,0,34.78,46.32,1.89,0,0,0,6.2,1.33
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15046,5.2,1.05,1.14,0,43.61,34.94,0,0,1.53,0,12.22,0.31
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15047,3.93,0,0,0.22,34.94,37.96,0,0,4.24,0,17.84,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15048,5.3,0.74,0.77,0,40.79,37.41,0.23,0,3.89,0.23,10.49,0.17
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15049,8.92,0,0.15,0.46,37.94,47.13,1.02,0,0,0,2.74,1.63
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15950,10.47,1.57,0,0,33.96,46.93,0,0,0,0,5.89,1.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15951,3.16,0.14,1.48,0.12,38.76,42.27,0,0,2.5,0.08,10.45,1.04
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15952,4.95,0,1.78,0.88,39.05,34.78,1.37,0,2.98,0,13.45,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15953,5.79,0.98,0.24,0,39.9,37.06,0,0.94,2.66,0,12.25,0.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15954,5.18,0.26,0.82,0,43.27,33.25,1.54,0.8,2.62,0,11.64,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16268,8.79,0.24,0,0.06,34.04,51.76,1.42,0.52,0,0.18,2.23,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16269,8.78,0,0.27,0,29.22,44.7,0.11,0,3.07,0.96,12.88,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16270,12.7,1.80,1.81,0.00,34.56,45.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.37,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16271,5.6,0,1.47,0.06,44.02,34.86,0,0.1,2.48,0,10.74,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16272,8.03,0.69,0.00,0.00,31.58,49.44,0.00,0.62,0.84,0.04,7.67,1.10
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16273,10.04,0,0.73,0,34.02,44.93,0,0,0,0,9.82,0.46
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17139,2.69,0.04,1.28,0.26,38.8,28.7,0,0,4.4,0.09,22.51,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17143,5.12,0.49,1.48,0.86,43.13,33.7,0,0,2.33,0,12.21,0.67
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17145,2.3,0.3,0.43,0,41.29,35.07,0,0,4.78,0.36,14.51,0.95
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17146,5.65,0.64,1.76,0.05,45.71,33.25,0,0.56,3.92,0,7.79,0.66
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17313,13.7,1.02,0,0,35.61,47.62,0,0,0,0,0.97,1.09
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17314,5.85,1.32,0.00,0.00,41.56,36.74,0.00,0.57,3.45,0.00,9.87,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17315,4.93,0,4.08,0,35,41.51,1.24,0.64,1.36,0,11.25,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17316,13.42,0.65,0,0,25.62,47.4,0,1.28,0,0,10.27,1.36
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17317,3.11,0.22,0.00,0.36,32.01,49.73,0.73,0.63,0.00,0.68,10.93,1.60
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17320,5.52,0,0.22,0,30.04,48.88,0,0,0,0.01,13.2,2.13
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17321,6.61,0,1.37,0.9,41.3,36.61,0,0,2.5,0,10.22,0.47
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17322,10.44,0.25,0,0,28.23,54.81,0.06,1.64,0,0,3.84,0.73
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17323,4.86,0,1.71,1.51,46.77,31.05,0.65,0,1.76,0,10.83,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17327,9.99,0.00,0.00,1.81,31.56,52.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,1.88
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18110,4.68,0,0.3,0,41.31,39.19,0,0,2.15,0,11.6,0.77
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18181,0,0,0,1.79,36.62,40.13,0,0,6.28,0,15.18,0
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18182,3.74,0.64,0.26,1.37,33.44,44.42,0.5,0,1.76,0,12.92,0.94
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18183,4,0,0,0.22,26.55,52.28,1.06,0,1.02,0.46,13.62,0.79
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18220,2.2,0.52,0,0,37.2,35.39,0,0,2.78,1.4,19.78,0.74
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18226,6.19,1.77,0,0.62,16.76,58.11,0.31,0,1.82,0,13.32,1.09
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18489,4.74,0.5,1.97,0.97,37.64,32.44,0,0,3.52,0.67,16.94,0.61
    C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.77,0.12,60.45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
    C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.76,0,63.45,3.27,0,0,10.15,0,20.2,0.17
    C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.67,0,64.87,0.54,0,0,0,0,31.92,0
    C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.61,0,54.5,0,0,0.17,12.44,0,29.12,0.16
    C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.22,0,52.75,0,0,0,11.28,0.2,31.18,0.38
    C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11.16,0,0.32,7.34,0.2,9.11,0
    C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.42,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.2,0.44,29.46,0.24
    C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.58,0,50.8,0,0,0,13.79,0,32.49,0.34
    C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.35,0,53.37,0,0,0,13.76,0,29.52,0
    C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.41,0,57.73,1.14,0,0,9.12,0.21,28.3,0.09
    C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.12,0,50.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
    C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.72,0,51.41,0,0,0.09,10.24,0,34.54,0
    C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.33,0,55.74,0.85,0,0,9.83,0,29.26,0
    Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
    Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
    Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
    Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
    Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
    Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017,6.07,0,1.17,1.3,27.23,3.79,0,0,14.72,0,43.22,2.51
    Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017,7.88,0.24,1.61,0,26.13,4.81,0,1.72,13.22,0.03,44.36,0
    Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017,8.73,0.62,2.12,0.42,25.19,0.9,0,0,14.26,0,45.14,2.61
    Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018,0,3.54,60.38,2.05,0,0,2.48,18.95,8.83,0,0,3.78
    Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.55,63.9,3.27,0,0.17,1.39,18.7,5.98,0,0,6.05
    Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.28,64.11,2.45,0,0.07,0.7,18.22,5.74,0.18,0,7.24
    Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.79,63.81,0.8,0.44,0,3.27,16.18,5.76,0.59,0,7.35
    Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.07,61.84,2.72,0,0.02,1.89,18.58,6.99,0,0,6.89
    Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.74,62.76,2.95,0,0,2.12,18.14,5.34,0,0,7.95
    Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0,62.82,1.87,0,0.9,0,15.76,6.67,3.45,0,8.52

  18. #118
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis Thanks for the coordinates and nice graphical presentation of the data in post 107. Angela, thanks for you observations in post 114. Here is my updated fits using the coordinates Jovialis provided in post 117 using my Ancestry, NATGENO, 23/Me and Combined (Ancestry/23ME) files. I also went ahead and ran the Sicilian Bronze Age samples using your approach Jovialis, along with the Sicilian Beaker. Even including the Low coverage sample the overall fit is 1.7, pretty good. When you take out the Low coverage sample (I4383) the overall fit is 1.12.






  19. #119
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Np,Cool, your modeling looks fairly close to how R437 is modeled.

  20. #120
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Not really a huge change. The majority of my matches are La Tene Central European ones, which makes sense, I suppose, but I get two Mycenaeans near the top. No Minoans at all.

    Distance to: Angela
    11.05993671 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    13.59220733 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    14.02280286 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    16.01455588 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.21546484 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    16.33682650 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    16.93758247 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    17.01981786 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    18.14376477 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    18.42850509 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    18.67689482 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    18.67808074 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    20.38625272 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    20.62161730 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    20.79852879 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    21.03071801 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    21.05470256 C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    21.11858423 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    21.18568857 La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
    21.80443304 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    21.84393509 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    22.10847349 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    22.66173647 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    22.75870603 La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    22.89048055 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 2.0035% / 2.00352957 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    53.3 La_Tène
    37.2 Mycenaean
    9.4 C_Italian_ChL
    0.1 Minoan

    I would have preferred the Minoans as I'm not a huge fan of the Mycenaeans, but there you go. :) I wonder if it's because the Mycenaeans provide the extra bit of steppe I need.

    This way I get pretty close, although it's more noisy. Now that I'm getting those stray bits of other steppe groups Minoan shows up instead of Mycenaean.
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.1980% / 0.19803370
    33.5 Minoan
    19.8 C_Italian_ChL
    11.1 La_Tène
    10.8 Hungary_1180BC
    8.0 Yamnaya
    7.2 Nordic_BA
    4.9 C_Italian_N
    2.4 Corded_Ware
    1.6 Hallstatt
    0.7 Sintashta

    Maybe there's some Beaker group out there which would better scoop up those stray steppe admixed cultures? Or a Bronze or Iron Age Balkan group?
    We've had a couple of discussions as to whether the Langobards/Goths etc. had an impact on North central Italians and Tuscan. Well, I plot around the Lunigiana/Emilia and even I have under 10% max, so as I said, some people vastly exaggerate the impact imo.

    The Mycenaean sample to which I'm closest is Italian shifted. It would be different, I think, if there was a Mycenaean average.

    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    13.38799089 French_Corsica
    13.95431116 Italian_Campania
    14.15419726 Italian_Molise
    14.46713047 Italian_Marche
    14.84007412 Italian_Abruzzo
    15.24896718 Italian_Sicily
    15.31707544 Italian_Calabria
    15.65797241 Italian_Umbria
    16.00060311 Italian_Lazio
    16.12514806 Italian_Romagna
    16.14004337 Italian_Basilicata
    16.34985015 Ashkenazi_Jew
    17.06061253 Italian_Jew
    17.17753184 Sephardic_Jew
    17.18632887 Greek_Icaria
    17.19559537 Italian_Tuscany
    17.31559124 Italian_Apulia
    17.74468089 Moldovan_Jewish
    17.85539694 Morocco_Jew
    18.14223801 Greek_Athens
    18.46402719 Italian_Emilia
    18.56272071 Greek_Central
    18.57647437 Greek_Foca
    18.60593185 Greek_Lemnos
    18.71485773 Greek_Izmir
    I

  21. #121
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    ^^Also, interesting modeling for the Fernandes paper; lots of C_Italian_N and Minoan.

  22. #122
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not really a huge change. The majority of my matches are La Tene Central European ones, which makes sense, I suppose, but I get two Mycenaeans near the top. No Minoans at all.
    Distance to: Angela
    11.05993671 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    13.59220733 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    14.02280286 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    16.01455588 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.21546484 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    16.33682650 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    16.93758247 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    17.01981786 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    18.14376477 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    18.42850509 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    18.67689482 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    18.67808074 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    20.38625272 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    20.62161730 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    20.79852879 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    21.03071801 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    21.05470256 C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    21.11858423 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    21.18568857 La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
    21.80443304 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    21.84393509 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    22.10847349 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    22.66173647 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    22.75870603 La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    22.89048055 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    Target: AngelaDistance: 2.0035% / 2.00352957 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    53.3 La_Tène
    37.2 Mycenaean
    9.4 C_Italian_ChL
    0.1 Minoan
    I would have preferred the Minoans as I'm not a huge fan of the Mycenaeans, but there you go. :) I wonder if it's because the Mycenaeans provide the extra bit of steppe I need.This way I get pretty close, although it's more noisy. Now that I'm getting those stray bits of other steppe groups Minoan shows up instead of Mycenaean.
    Target: AngelaDistance: 0.1980% / 0.19803370
    33.5 Minoan
    19.8 C_Italian_ChL
    11.1 La_Tène
    10.8 Hungary_1180BC
    8.0 Yamnaya
    7.2 Nordic_BA
    4.9 C_Italian_N
    2.4 Corded_Ware
    1.6 Hallstatt
    0.7 Sintashta
    Maybe there's some Beaker group out there which would better scoop up those stray steppe admixed cultures? Or a Bronze or Iron Age Balkan group?We've had a couple of discussions as to whether the Langobards/Goths etc. had an impact on North central Italians and Tuscan. Well, I plot around the Lunigiana/Emilia and even I have under 10% max, so as I said, some people vastly exaggerate the impact imo.The Mycenaean sample to which I'm closest is Italian shifted. It would be different, I think, if there was a Mycenaean average.
    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    13.38799089 French_Corsica
    13.95431116 Italian_Campania
    14.15419726 Italian_Molise
    14.46713047 Italian_Marche
    14.84007412 Italian_Abruzzo
    15.24896718 Italian_Sicily
    15.31707544 Italian_Calabria
    15.65797241 Italian_Umbria
    16.00060311 Italian_Lazio
    16.12514806 Italian_Romagna
    16.14004337 Italian_Basilicata
    16.34985015 Ashkenazi_Jew
    17.06061253 Italian_Jew
    17.17753184 Sephardic_Jew
    17.18632887 Greek_Icaria
    17.19559537 Italian_Tuscany
    17.31559124 Italian_Apulia
    17.74468089 Moldovan_Jewish
    17.85539694 Morocco_Jew
    18.14223801 Greek_Athens
    18.46402719 Italian_Emilia
    18.56272071 Greek_Central
    18.57647437 Greek_Foca
    18.60593185 Greek_Lemnos
    18.71485773 Greek_Izmir
    I
    I plan on putting together one made of averages for this particular modeling, when I get a chance in a bit. But first I have to install curtain rods in my kitchen. :)

  23. #123
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    But also, I have noticed that using 0.25x for this modeling seems to give everyone Mycenaean over Minoan.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not really a huge change. The majority of my matches are La Tene Central European ones, which makes sense, I suppose, but I get two Mycenaeans near the top. No Minoans at all.

    Distance to: Angela
    11.05993671 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    13.59220733 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    14.02280286 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    16.01455588 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.21546484 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    16.33682650 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    16.93758247 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    17.01981786 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    18.14376477 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    18.42850509 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    18.67689482 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    18.67808074 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    20.38625272 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    20.62161730 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    20.79852879 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    21.03071801 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    21.05470256 C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    21.11858423 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    21.18568857 La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
    21.80443304 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    21.84393509 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    22.10847349 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    22.66173647 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    22.75870603 La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    22.89048055 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 2.0035% / 2.00352957 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    53.3 La_Tène
    37.2 Mycenaean
    9.4 C_Italian_ChL
    0.1 Minoan

    I would have preferred the Minoans as I'm not a huge fan of the Mycenaeans, but there you go. :) I wonder if it's because the Mycenaeans provide the extra bit of steppe I need.

    This way I get pretty close, although it's more noisy. Now that I'm getting those stray bits of other steppe groups Minoan shows up instead of Mycenaean.
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.1980% / 0.19803370
    33.5 Minoan
    19.8 C_Italian_ChL
    11.1 La_Tène
    10.8 Hungary_1180BC
    8.0 Yamnaya
    7.2 Nordic_BA
    4.9 C_Italian_N
    2.4 Corded_Ware
    1.6 Hallstatt
    0.7 Sintashta

    Maybe there's some Beaker group out there which would better scoop up those stray steppe admixed cultures? Or a Bronze or Iron Age Balkan group?
    We've had a couple of discussions as to whether the Langobards/Goths etc. had an impact on North central Italians and Tuscan. Well, I plot around the Lunigiana/Emilia and even I have under 10% max, so as I said, some people vastly exaggerate the impact imo.

    The Mycenaean sample to which I'm closest is Italian shifted. It would be different, I think, if there was a Mycenaean average.

    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    13.38799089 French_Corsica
    13.95431116 Italian_Campania
    14.15419726 Italian_Molise
    14.46713047 Italian_Marche
    14.84007412 Italian_Abruzzo
    15.24896718 Italian_Sicily
    15.31707544 Italian_Calabria
    15.65797241 Italian_Umbria
    16.00060311 Italian_Lazio
    16.12514806 Italian_Romagna
    16.14004337 Italian_Basilicata
    16.34985015 Ashkenazi_Jew
    17.06061253 Italian_Jew
    17.17753184 Sephardic_Jew
    17.18632887 Greek_Icaria
    17.19559537 Italian_Tuscany
    17.31559124 Italian_Apulia
    17.74468089 Moldovan_Jewish
    17.85539694 Morocco_Jew
    18.14223801 Greek_Athens
    18.46402719 Italian_Emilia
    18.56272071 Greek_Central
    18.57647437 Greek_Foca
    18.60593185 Greek_Lemnos
    18.71485773 Greek_Izmir
    I
    I am really surprised that the Mycenaean sample you used is so far away from any of the Greek samples.

  25. #125
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,227

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Jovialis: Interesting using the 0.25x scaling. Model fit with it and the Mycenaean is not as good for me as the models in my post #118. Anyone have any plausible explanations for these differences in results for everyone.


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