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Thread: La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

  1. #1
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: United States



    5 members found this post helpful.

    La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians



    https://www.worldhistory.org/image/1...-tene-culture/

    Much praise to Maciamo for processing the Paterson et al. 2021 samples, and sharing them with me. I will include them in an update of the Individual samples for the aDNA catalog for Dodecad K12b.

    I have included La Tène, and Hallstatt samples, in the modeling I had previously used for ancient and modern Italians, ( Hungarian_BA:BR2, Catacomb, C_Italian_N, C_Italian_ChL, Minoan, Iberomarusian)

    Code:
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
    Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
    Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
    Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
    Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
    Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
    Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
    Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
    Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
    Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014,1.09,0,0.38,0,36.78,41.52,0,0,3.74,0,16.14,0.36
    C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.77,0.12,60.45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
    C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.76,0,63.45,3.27,0,0,10.15,0,20.2,0.17
    C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.67,0,64.87,0.54,0,0,0,0,31.92,0
    C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.61,0,54.5,0,0,0.17,12.44,0,29.12,0.16
    C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.22,0,52.75,0,0,0,11.28,0.2,31.18,0.38
    C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11.16,0,0.32,7.34,0.2,9.11,0
    C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.42,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.2,0.44,29.46,0.24
    C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.58,0,50.8,0,0,0,13.79,0,32.49,0.34
    C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.35,0,53.37,0,0,0,13.76,0,29.52,0
    C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.41,0,57.73,1.14,0,0,9.12,0.21,28.3,0.09
    C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.12,0,50.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
    C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.72,0,51.41,0,0,0.09,10.24,0,34.54,0
    C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.33,0,55.74,0.85,0,0,9.83,0,29.26,0
    Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018,0,3.54,60.38,2.05,0,0,2.48,18.95,8.83,0,0,3.78
    Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.55,63.9,3.27,0,0.17,1.39,18.7,5.98,0,0,6.05
    Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.28,64.11,2.45,0,0.07,0.7,18.22,5.74,0.18,0,7.24
    Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.79,63.81,0.8,0.44,0,3.27,16.18,5.76,0.59,0,7.35
    Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.07,61.84,2.72,0,0.02,1.89,18.58,6.99,0,0,6.89
    Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.74,62.76,2.95,0,0,2.12,18.14,5.34,0,0,7.95
    Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0,62.82,1.87,0,0.9,0,15.76,6.67,3.45,0,8.52
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781,6.20,0.00,0.00,0.14,38.66,39.72,0.85,0.00,2.30,0.67,10.26,1.20
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980,0.65,0,3.67,0,41.76,30.94,0,0,6.19,0,16.55,0.23
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983,4.66,0.11,0.74,0.18,35.81,41.52,0.39,0,1.8,0,14.18,0.61
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071,5.13,0.00,2.36,0.00,38.23,39.29,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00,14.03,0.52
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088,5.87,2.57,0.00,0.00,38.83,39.71,0.00,0.00,3.62,0.00,8.54,0.86
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092,0.00,0.00,4.08,0.00,59.70,12.92,0.00,0.00,6.68,0.07,16.15,0.41
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326,3.57,0.00,0.37,1.34,33.64,48.74,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.19,7.01,1.64
    Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327,6.72,0,0,0,38.03,40.63,0,0.07,4.2,1.47,7.85,1.02
    Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227,3.73,0.00,2.56,0.10,37.43,38.27,0.11,0.29,3.18,0.29,13.84,0.2
    La_Tène:Austria_I11699,4.19,0,1.44,0,41.59,32.68,0,0.82,4.89,0,14.38,0.01
    La_Tène:Austria_I11701,5.29,0.3,0.06,0.66,39.07,29.93,0,0,4.92,0,19.15,0.61
    La_Tène:Austria_I11708,1.23,1.05,0,0.31,39.79,32.82,0.19,0,6.08,0,17.86,0.66
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712,6.95,0,0.08,0.12,39.88,38.44,0,0,3.58,0,10,0.94
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11713,3.46,0.21,0.11,0,40.46,38.98,1.4,0.41,3.55,0,10.52,0.89
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715,6.92,0.29,2.98,0,41.55,37.22,0,0,1.97,0,9.08,0
    La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716,0.74,0,0.22,1.14,40.3,32.92,0.69,0,3.69,0,19.61,0.7
    La_Tène:Czechia_I13780,5.38,1.33,0,0,32.76,48.77,1.77,0,0,0,7.56,2.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14984,6.26,0.51,0.61,0,40.39,35.64,1.22,0,2.95,0,11.64,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14985,4.29,0,1.4,1.01,40.26,38.95,0,0,0.33,0,12.99,0.78
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14986,5.97,0,0.77,0,38.96,34.65,1.11,0,3.93,0.21,13.55,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14987,6.43,0.9,0,0,37.01,41.05,0.6,0,2.69,0,10.88,0.44
    La_Tène:Czechia_I14988,4.53,0.85,0.32,0,35.88,37.63,0.74,0.22,2.82,0.12,16.9,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15039,5.35,0,1.19,0.39,38.55,40.86,0,0.16,1.07,0,11.66,0.77
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15040,6.9,0,0.37,0,33.57,44.72,0,0,2.07,0.22,11.96,0.19
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15042,3.47,0.8,0.2,0.13,44.35,31.51,0,0,5.22,0,13.52,0.8
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15043,4.29,0.88,2.1,0,44.01,35.76,0,0,0,0,12.67,0.28
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15044,7.62,1.53,0.28,0,40.01,41,0,0.71,0.89,0.27,7,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15045,9.49,0,0,0,34.78,46.32,1.89,0,0,0,6.2,1.33
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15046,5.2,1.05,1.14,0,43.61,34.94,0,0,1.53,0,12.22,0.31
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15047,3.93,0,0,0.22,34.94,37.96,0,0,4.24,0,17.84,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15048,5.3,0.74,0.77,0,40.79,37.41,0.23,0,3.89,0.23,10.49,0.17
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15049,8.92,0,0.15,0.46,37.94,47.13,1.02,0,0,0,2.74,1.63
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15950,10.47,1.57,0,0,33.96,46.93,0,0,0,0,5.89,1.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15951,3.16,0.14,1.48,0.12,38.76,42.27,0,0,2.5,0.08,10.45,1.04
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15952,4.95,0,1.78,0.88,39.05,34.78,1.37,0,2.98,0,13.45,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15953,5.79,0.98,0.24,0,39.9,37.06,0,0.94,2.66,0,12.25,0.18
    La_Tène:Czechia_I15954,5.18,0.26,0.82,0,43.27,33.25,1.54,0.8,2.62,0,11.64,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16268,8.79,0.24,0,0.06,34.04,51.76,1.42,0.52,0,0.18,2.23,0.76
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16269,8.78,0,0.27,0,29.22,44.7,0.11,0,3.07,0.96,12.88,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16270,12.7,1.80,1.81,0.00,34.56,45.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.37,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16271,5.6,0,1.47,0.06,44.02,34.86,0,0.1,2.48,0,10.74,0.69
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16272,8.03,0.69,0.00,0.00,31.58,49.44,0.00,0.62,0.84,0.04,7.67,1.10
    La_Tène:Czechia_I16273,10.04,0,0.73,0,34.02,44.93,0,0,0,0,9.82,0.46
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17139,2.69,0.04,1.28,0.26,38.8,28.7,0,0,4.4,0.09,22.51,1.23
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17143,5.12,0.49,1.48,0.86,43.13,33.7,0,0,2.33,0,12.21,0.67
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17145,2.3,0.3,0.43,0,41.29,35.07,0,0,4.78,0.36,14.51,0.95
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17146,5.65,0.64,1.76,0.05,45.71,33.25,0,0.56,3.92,0,7.79,0.66
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17313,13.7,1.02,0,0,35.61,47.62,0,0,0,0,0.97,1.09
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17314,5.85,1.32,0.00,0.00,41.56,36.74,0.00,0.57,3.45,0.00,9.87,0.64
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17315,4.93,0,4.08,0,35,41.51,1.24,0.64,1.36,0,11.25,0
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17316,13.42,0.65,0,0,25.62,47.4,0,1.28,0,0,10.27,1.36
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17317,3.11,0.22,0.00,0.36,32.01,49.73,0.73,0.63,0.00,0.68,10.93,1.60
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17320,5.52,0,0.22,0,30.04,48.88,0,0,0,0.01,13.2,2.13
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17321,6.61,0,1.37,0.9,41.3,36.61,0,0,2.5,0,10.22,0.47
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17322,10.44,0.25,0,0,28.23,54.81,0.06,1.64,0,0,3.84,0.73
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17323,4.86,0,1.71,1.51,46.77,31.05,0.65,0,1.76,0,10.83,0.86
    La_Tène:Czechia_I17327,9.99,0.00,0.00,1.81,31.56,52.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,1.88
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18110,4.68,0,0.3,0,41.31,39.19,0,0,2.15,0,11.6,0.77
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18181,0,0,0,1.79,36.62,40.13,0,0,6.28,0,15.18,0
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18182,3.74,0.64,0.26,1.37,33.44,44.42,0.5,0,1.76,0,12.92,0.94
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18183,4,0,0,0.22,26.55,52.28,1.06,0,1.02,0.46,13.62,0.79
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18220,2.2,0.52,0,0,37.2,35.39,0,0,2.78,1.4,19.78,0.74
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18226,6.19,1.77,0,0.62,16.76,58.11,0.31,0,1.82,0,13.32,1.09
    La_Tène:Hungary_I18489,4.74,0.5,1.97,0.97,37.64,32.44,0,0,3.52,0.67,16.94,0.61



  2. #2
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    ^^The gradient of La Tène culture matches the map. The North down to Central, nearly 50% to 28%.

    After that, there seems to be a break with the south, I myself get about 6.5%. The modeling for the south still is primarily dependent on Catacomb and Minoan.

  3. #3
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: Thanks for the coordinates in post 1. My model fit with the Le Tene Culture samples. I get a really nice fit. You have any theories why that Le Tene result of 9% is showing up in the model for Sicily. Is it plausible that it is picking up EEF ancestry from a different source than say direct migrants from Anatolia into Southern Italy and Sicily?


  4. #4
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Torziok12b
    4.04659291 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    4.97288875 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    7.33649780 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    9.28841752 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    9.77924844 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    9.90555905 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    10.44153724 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    10.45056936 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    10.80968547 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    11.23034728 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    11.36262734 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    11.38354075 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    12.17740941 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    12.54464029 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    13.39352455 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    13.41350066 Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227
    13.51586845 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    13.74852719 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    13.86519383 La_Tène:Czechia_I15953
    14.55949862 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    14.79431310 Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071
    15.24122698 La_Tène:Czechia_I15048
    15.31070214 La_Tène:Czechia_I17321
    15.33783557 La_Tène:Czechia_I16271
    15.36729644 La_Tène:Hungary_I18181


    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 31.7750% / 0.31774991
    48.8 La_Tène
    25.2 Minoan
    9.4 Catacomb
    8.2 C_Italian_N
    3.6 Hungary_1180BC
    3.4 C_Italian_ChL
    1.4 Hallstatt



    what is Minoan .............just ancient Crete ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  5. #5
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Minoan is more of proxy for [Anatolia_N + CHG/IN] ancestry.

    @Palermo, I am not certain.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Minoan is more of proxy for [Anatolia_N + CHG/IN] ancestry.

    @Palermo, I am not certain.
    Ok, thanks Jovialis. I would think it has be related to some population that made it into peninsular Italy and then Sicily as well. Maybe Italian Beakers, particularly the Northern Italian Beaker from Olade et al 2018?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    9.16037117 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    11.16701840 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    13.75401032 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    13.96748725 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    14.28850237 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    14.79376558 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    14.85500926 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    16.56699430 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    16.64927626 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    17.29652855 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    17.62566027 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    17.98429593 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    18.05401894 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    18.23527899 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    19.53606921 Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227
    20.03366666 La_Tène:Hungary_I18181
    20.10824458 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    20.28454338 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    20.34573174 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    20.62124148 La_Tène:Czechia_I15953
    20.89569573 Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014
    21.20518804 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    21.27733301 Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071
    21.86515950 La_Tène:Czechia_I15048
    21.98921554 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983

    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 2.5246% / 2.52459974 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    62.1 La_Tène
    26.9 Minoan
    11.0 Catacomb


    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 1.3064% / 1.30638903 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    64.9 La_Tène
    31.5 Minoan
    2.0 Catacomb
    1.6 Iberomaurusian



    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 0.2435% / 0.24345998
    45.5 Minoan
    23.1 La_Tène
    14.9 Hungary_1180BC
    10.3 Hallstatt
    6.2 Catacomb

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    1.51680134 46.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 53.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.15798814 45.20% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 54.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I15040
    2.18094775 50.80% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 49.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I16272
    2.25790869 52.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 47.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I16272
    2.27947153 49.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 50.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17320
    2.28803043 44.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 55.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.31666504 46.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 53.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I15040
    2.37251914 54.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 45.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    2.40449176 57.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 42.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    2.42327113 49.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 50.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I17320
    2.44037105 55.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 44.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    2.45343545 54.60% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 45.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16268
    2.49457881 55.40% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 44.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17327
    2.50433000 50.80% Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 49.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17317
    2.55633697 53.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 46.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17327
    2.55950195 56.00% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 44.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    2.56865779 44.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 55.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.60271392 45.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.40% La_Tène:Hungary_I18182
    2.61366303 45.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.63487982 55.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 44.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    2.64174696 49.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 50.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I16272
    2.64934452 54.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 46.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17327
    2.66258399 45.00% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 55.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.69621739 43.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 56.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    2.76493433 50.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 49.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16272

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    156


    Country: Italy



    @jovialis
    why not using Sicily_BA as a more proximate source for the south?

  9. #9
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,871

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Sicily BA is pretty heterogeneous, so I am not sure which sample would be ideal to use for the modeling.

    Distance to: Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
    18.24994247 TSI30
    18.33689723 Tuscan
    18.89257791 C_Italian
    19.91372140 North_Italian
    21.13300026 Sicilian
    21.39819619 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.42316659 N_Italian
    23.29144907 O_Italian
    23.75471322 Morocco_Jews
    24.28492537 Andalucia
    24.75444607 Sephardic_Jews
    24.78331697 Baleares
    24.86046661 Murcia
    25.36307552 Sardinian
    25.42940817 Ashkenazi
    25.92965098 Canarias
    26.43118802 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.59508977 Greek
    27.11882003 Galicia
    27.38124175 Extremadura
    27.89141086 Castilla_Y_Leon
    28.05802381 Portuguese
    28.14396561 Spaniards
    28.51618488 Castilla_La_Mancha
    29.19435562 Spanish


    Distance to: Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
    18.10600453 TSI30
    18.23224616 Tuscan
    19.22998960 North_Italian
    19.26657987 C_Italian
    21.96219934 N_Italian
    22.30049551 Sicilian
    22.63878972 S_Italian_Sicilian
    23.34666571 Andalucia
    23.55689283 O_Italian
    23.81411346 Sardinian
    23.99809992 Baleares
    24.40759718 Murcia
    25.59595281 Canarias
    25.92037808 Morocco_Jews
    26.59940225 Sephardic_Jews
    26.65954988 Galicia
    26.79591014 Ashkenazi
    26.88012649 Extremadura
    27.16296744 Greek
    27.18593018 Castilla_Y_Leon
    27.23895740 Spaniards
    27.66268425 Ashkenazy_Jews
    27.71173939 Portuguese
    27.75940922 Castilla_La_Mancha
    28.15626396 Valencia


    Distance to: Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10371:Fernandes_2020
    23.89224770 Morocco_Jews
    24.43347294 C_Italian
    24.53686003 TSI30
    24.70891944 Sardinian
    24.76868386 Tuscan
    24.86621805 Sicilian
    25.34093724 S_Italian_Sicilian
    26.00781037 North_Italian
    26.27174338 Sephardic_Jews
    27.31072866 Andalucia
    27.48175941 Canarias
    27.71921896 Murcia
    28.35300866 N_Italian
    28.77094194 Ashkenazi
    28.95201375 Baleares
    29.02861864 O_Italian
    29.91830209 Ashkenazy_Jews
    30.60772288 Extremadura
    30.71951009 Galicia
    30.89522617 Portuguese
    30.98701502 Castilla_Y_Leon
    31.59311792 Castilla_La_Mancha
    31.87100720 Spaniards
    31.95426576 Greek
    32.31363025 Spanish


    Distance to: Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
    17.47656717 TSI30
    17.70747865 Tuscan
    18.23811668 C_Italian
    18.91028027 North_Italian
    20.85598955 Sicilian
    21.31192624 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.40286897 N_Italian
    22.55001109 O_Italian
    22.91879142 Andalucia
    23.49923829 Baleares
    23.52594738 Murcia
    23.55087684 Morocco_Jews
    24.06703555 Canarias
    24.78835210 Sephardic_Jews
    25.23723836 Ashkenazi
    25.34231244 Sardinian
    25.81127273 Galicia
    25.97163453 Extremadura
    26.21664166 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.29232207 Greek
    26.49906036 Castilla_Y_Leon
    26.57213390 Portuguese
    26.97947739 Spaniards
    27.40715600 Castilla_La_Mancha
    27.91590586 Spanish


    Distance to: Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
    14.78745414 Tuscan
    15.10316523 TSI30
    15.17786217 C_Italian
    17.72069694 Sicilian
    18.14121275 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.20026099 North_Italian
    20.11411445 O_Italian
    20.36651173 N_Italian
    22.22025202 Ashkenazi
    22.39637917 Morocco_Jews
    22.52330793 Sephardic_Jews
    22.61825811 Greek
    22.98784679 Ashkenazy_Jews
    24.83001410 Baleares
    25.01247289 Andalucia
    25.85911058 Murcia
    26.36147947 Canarias
    27.47023116 Galicia
    27.71306190 Extremadura
    28.50696932 Portuguese
    28.51370898 Castilla_Y_Leon
    28.61259513 Sardinian
    28.72228403 Spaniards
    29.64624091 Castilla_La_Mancha
    29.98749406 Spanish


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_lowcov_Vallone_Inferno:I4383:Fernandes_ 2020
    11.53117947 Morocco_Jews
    14.26636955 Sephardic_Jews
    16.02649369 Ashkenazi
    16.54715686 Sicilian
    16.79822907 S_Italian_Sicilian
    17.60245437 Ashkenazy_Jews
    20.98409874 C_Italian
    22.35371334 Greek
    23.73595163 Palestinian
    23.93396123 Jordanians
    24.03689872 O_Italian
    24.23127112 Lebanese
    24.29365967 Tuscan
    24.46454986 Syrians
    24.59755476 TSI30
    24.84635184 Egyptans
    24.94803599 Cypriots
    29.19633881 Druze
    29.62412024 Bedouin
    29.63662599 Samaritians
    29.63887481 N_Italian
    29.84662795 North_Italian
    31.38385094 Yemenese
    31.89502312 Turkish
    33.75936166 Bulgarian


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Isnello:I8561:Fernandes_2020
    6.50962365 Baleares
    8.45121293 Galicia
    8.75598081 Murcia
    9.57816266 Spaniards
    9.70964469 Castilla_Y_Leon
    9.99150639 Andalucia
    10.04319172 North_Italian
    10.23018084 Extremadura
    10.86308428 Spanish
    11.05205411 Portuguese
    11.23375271 Castilla_La_Mancha
    11.24096081 Cantabria
    11.39101400 Cataluna
    11.53259728 Valencia
    12.06402918 Aragon
    12.59205305 N_Italian
    13.84547580 Canarias
    17.57268904 TSI30
    19.52399549 Tuscan
    20.11014669 French
    20.72332261 French
    21.51065317 O_Italian
    22.94789969 C_Italian
    25.99229116 Pais_Vasco
    28.49898770 English_mixed


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7807:F ernandes_2020
    16.08765054 TSI30
    16.78273816 Tuscan
    16.80401143 North_Italian
    17.37471726 C_Italian
    19.13826795 N_Italian
    20.70025604 Sicilian
    20.73786151 O_Italian
    20.86852894 Murcia
    21.02868279 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.03733586 Baleares
    21.23285897 Andalucia
    21.91386547 Canarias
    22.82910642 Galicia
    23.11235817 Morocco_Jews
    23.30251274 Extremadura
    23.68439148 Portuguese
    23.97159778 Castilla_Y_Leon
    24.65464459 Spaniards
    24.72127626 Ashkenazi
    24.73006470 Sephardic_Jews
    25.01450579 Castilla_La_Mancha
    25.39647810 Spanish
    25.46427890 Greek
    25.90093821 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.12654397 Valencia


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7805:F ernandes_2020
    20.69105121 Sardinian
    21.42800504 Murcia
    21.88528273 Andalucia
    23.07447508 Castilla_La_Mancha
    23.98389877 Baleares
    24.25488817 Aragon
    24.42661254 Castilla_Y_Leon
    24.56174668 Spaniards
    24.75276954 Spanish
    24.79329748 Valencia
    24.79684254 Canarias
    24.80854288 Galicia
    25.19646007 Extremadura
    25.28381696 Cantabria
    25.48904274 Portuguese
    26.00185955 North_Italian
    26.84770754 Cataluna
    28.79783325 N_Italian
    29.12299435 TSI30
    30.33233918 Tuscan
    31.78873071 Pais_Vasco
    31.99660138 C_Italian
    32.78398084 French_Basque
    33.71208389 O_Italian
    35.84688968 Sicilian


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7800:F ernandes_2020
    13.04013037 North_Italian
    13.56515757 Murcia
    14.33357946 Baleares
    14.37516956 Canarias
    14.51463744 N_Italian
    15.00154992 Galicia
    15.10902710 TSI30
    15.20647559 Andalucia
    15.25635933 Extremadura
    15.29688857 Portuguese
    16.74131118 Castilla_Y_Leon
    16.79297174 Tuscan
    18.00088887 C_Italian
    18.07759663 Spaniards
    18.20473839 Spanish
    18.29711726 O_Italian
    18.39134307 Castilla_La_Mancha
    19.82749354 Cataluna
    20.06664147 Valencia
    20.25515984 Cantabria
    20.39661982 Aragon
    23.32760168 Sicilian
    23.57913272 S_Italian_Sicilian
    25.67957359 Morocco_Jews
    26.51802217 Greek


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7796:F ernandes_2020
    16.30655390 Sicilian
    16.75089848 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.29108526 Sephardic_Jews
    19.15464957 Ashkenazi
    19.42245350 Ashkenazy_Jews
    19.51535549 C_Italian
    20.33353880 Morocco_Jews
    21.32763934 Tuscan
    22.21257752 Greek
    22.83079499 TSI30
    23.27026858 Cypriots
    25.76837597 O_Italian
    28.91277053 North_Italian
    30.07307766 N_Italian
    31.16418778 Turkish
    33.21589830 Druze
    34.16545917 Lebanese
    34.32435870 Turks
    36.84976526 Armenian
    37.04547611 Syrians
    37.15142797 Baleares
    37.58590959 Jordanians
    37.58733297 Bulgarians
    37.61231181 Andalucia
    37.89955936 Armenians


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7774_d :Fernandes_2020
    18.73474313 Sardinian
    23.23936101 North_Italian
    23.57023123 Andalucia
    23.79303259 TSI30
    24.29344356 Tuscan
    24.49898773 Murcia
    25.33567445 Baleares
    25.53052487 C_Italian
    26.25303792 N_Italian
    26.54585467 Canarias
    27.16741430 Castilla_La_Mancha
    27.48473031 Spaniards
    27.53391363 Castilla_Y_Leon
    27.58069252 Galicia
    27.76601160 Extremadura
    27.94370770 Valencia
    28.05200171 Aragon
    28.37092702 Sicilian
    28.44474292 Spanish
    28.50177714 Portuguese
    28.53261993 S_Italian_Sicilian
    28.94163783 Cantabria
    29.18211439 O_Italian
    30.09297260 Morocco_Jews
    30.23306799 Cataluna


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I11443:Fernandes_2020
    11.01680534 French
    11.19093830 French
    11.86424882 N_Italian
    14.17487566 North_Italian
    14.78398796 English_mixed
    15.26991814 Galicia
    15.48873784 Baleares
    16.38935630 Mixed_Germanic
    16.49825445 Extremadura
    16.89934022 Portuguese
    17.29222369 Cataluna
    17.55357513 Irish
    17.91697519 O_Italian
    17.95502715 German
    18.13011307 Dutch
    18.28665907 Kent
    18.44372522 Castilla_Y_Leon
    18.52471322 Spaniards
    18.82351721 TSI30
    19.00207883 CEU30
    19.18736563 Romanians
    19.35278791 Spanish
    19.52616194 Murcia
    19.56545425 Cornwall
    19.59058447 Hungarians


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I11442:Fernandes_2020
    15.88527305 North_Italian
    15.95214092 TSI30
    16.68630576 Tuscan
    17.86497971 C_Italian
    18.59611787 N_Italian
    19.50311770 Andalucia
    19.74918226 Baleares
    19.77069043 Murcia
    20.89119910 Canarias
    21.19097921 O_Italian
    21.95873403 Galicia
    21.96411847 Sicilian
    22.30451075 Extremadura
    22.38227424 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.71744264 Castilla_Y_Leon
    22.87722230 Portuguese
    23.22214891 Spaniards
    23.67015420 Castilla_La_Mancha
    24.13232687 Spanish
    24.44625125 Valencia
    24.84176322 Aragon
    25.03353351 Sardinian
    25.16915175 Cantabria
    25.21362330 Morocco_Jews
    25.75457629 Cataluna


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3125:Fernandes_2020
    17.65492283 C_Italian
    17.89370280 Tuscan
    18.27188003 TSI30
    18.53783429 Sicilian
    18.91862046 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.49445975 Morocco_Jews
    21.55811448 North_Italian
    21.91138517 Sephardic_Jews
    22.74506980 Ashkenazi
    22.97286225 O_Italian
    23.65859886 Ashkenazy_Jews
    23.70690195 N_Italian
    24.52570488 Greek
    27.50350887 Andalucia
    27.69014626 Baleares
    28.21223493 Murcia
    28.34961728 Sardinian
    28.61262309 Canarias
    30.14680746 Galicia
    30.35888338 Extremadura
    31.03742096 Portuguese
    31.08414708 Castilla_Y_Leon
    31.40704061 Spaniards
    31.51221033 Cypriots
    32.04540841 Castilla_La_Mancha


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3124:Fernandes_2020
    10.68503159 North_Italian
    13.84330163 Baleares
    13.88138322 TSI30
    13.89421462 N_Italian
    14.50196538 Andalucia
    14.95155510 Murcia
    15.19967105 Tuscan
    16.50725295 Galicia
    17.04573260 Canarias
    17.10425093 Extremadura
    17.28742317 Castilla_Y_Leon
    17.48527952 Spaniards
    17.83494603 C_Italian
    17.93799041 Portuguese
    18.53059632 Castilla_La_Mancha
    18.72365883 Spanish
    18.82227404 Valencia
    19.32861609 O_Italian
    19.42591053 Aragon
    19.44008745 Cantabria
    19.96629660 Cataluna
    24.38152374 Sicilian
    24.81541859 S_Italian_Sicilian
    25.88968134 Sardinian
    26.57113095 Greek


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3123:Fernandes_2020
    13.83595678 North_Italian
    14.78342991 TSI30
    15.74675205 Tuscan
    16.69981437 N_Italian
    17.40144534 C_Italian
    17.60261912 Baleares
    17.66813516 Andalucia
    17.95127294 Murcia
    19.32460090 Canarias
    19.93286733 Galicia
    20.16577298 O_Italian
    20.36707637 Extremadura
    20.72959720 Castilla_Y_Leon
    21.00271649 Portuguese
    21.17428157 Spaniards
    21.81362418 Castilla_La_Mancha
    22.17241078 Spanish
    22.44356701 Sicilian
    22.46186991 Valencia
    22.88003934 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.91993892 Aragon
    23.14364276 Cantabria
    23.68957999 Cataluna
    25.29083233 Sardinian
    26.09069183 Greek


    Distance to: Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3122:Fernandes_2020
    13.80849014 Sardinian
    20.36149307 Andalucia
    21.73299335 Murcia
    23.31435180 Baleares
    23.77399840 Castilla_La_Mancha
    23.79380171 Canarias
    23.92738389 North_Italian
    24.29206043 Aragon
    24.39418373 Valencia
    24.50565241 Castilla_Y_Leon
    24.52934977 Spaniards
    25.22427402 Spanish
    25.35310632 Extremadura
    25.41595562 Galicia
    25.50970404 Cantabria
    26.03641104 Portuguese
    26.34696567 TSI30
    27.15237375 N_Italian
    27.24820728 Tuscan
    27.45849595 Cataluna
    28.99452190 C_Italian
    31.86845462 O_Italian
    32.89390977 Sicilian
    33.09240094 Pais_Vasco
    33.21465038 S_Italian_Sicilian

  10. #10
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,871

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Moreover, if I added these samples to the model, the results are virtually inconsequential. The only sample that has any bearing is a low-coverage one.


  11. #11
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,871

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Additionally, say if I take out catacomb, and minoan, and just keep the sicilian_BA samples, the fits for the South become much more distant:


  12. #12
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    20,627


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, everyone, no more juice.

    My results seem generally similar to those of Stuvane.

    Distance to: Angela
    11.05993671 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    13.59220733 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    16.21546484 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    16.33682650 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    16.93758247 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    17.01981786 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    18.42850509 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    18.67689482 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    18.67808074 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    20.38625272 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    20.62161730 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    20.79852879 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    21.03071801 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    21.05470256 C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    21.11858423 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    21.18568857 La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
    21.80443304 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    21.84393509 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    22.10847349 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    22.66173647 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    22.75870603 La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    22.93674781 La_Tène:Czechia_I16271
    23.14740806 Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092
    23.21414009 Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017
    23.42461099 La_Tène:Czechia_I15953


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.4669% / 0.46690057
    36.0 La_Tène
    35.5 Minoan
    20.6 C_Italian_ChL
    7.3 Catacomb
    0.6 C_Italian_N


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 2.6704% / 2.67037624 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    67.4 La_Tène
    30.9 Minoan
    1.7 C_Italian_ChL

    Target Distance | ADC: 0.25x RC C_Italian_ChL La_Tène Minoan
    Angela 2.67037624 1.7 67.4 30.9
    Average 2.67037624 1.7 67.4 30.9

    Distance to: Angela
    2.09129490 44.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 55.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    2.24763609 43.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 56.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    2.27740090 46.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    2.28899273 45.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    2.29655258 43.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 56.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    2.33521207 47.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 52.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17321
    2.33645451 53.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 46.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I15044
    2.34605645 48.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 51.60% La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715
    2.34798743 61.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019 + 39.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    2.36644731 45.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    2.36757224 45.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I16271
    2.42711466 45.40% Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.60% La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715
    2.49661982 49.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 51.00% La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715
    2.50759446 47.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 53.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17321
    2.52485790 41.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 58.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    2.53180870 42.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 57.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    2.54712730 57.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 42.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16273
    2.55308851 44.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 56.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    2.56983778 43.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 56.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16271
    2.59116627 44.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 55.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    2.61326953 41.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 58.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    2.70043435 46.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 53.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I15953
    2.72397556 45.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    2.72693240 46.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    2.74989719 56.80% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019 + 43.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.4669% / 0.46690057
    36.0 La_Tène
    35.5 Minoan
    20.6 C_Italian_ChL
    7.3 Catacomb
    0.6 C_Italian_N


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    I realize that my results are rather messy, as I'm half British Isles, half Calabrese. However, I appear to have a lot more C_Italian_N (11.8%) and C_Italian_ChL (7.1%) than the full-blooded Italians here. If it's fair to double those numbers, that's 35% combined for Calabria Tirrenica. And I imagine the Iberomaurusian component could be doubled from 2.7% to roughly 5% or so.

    My guess is that this points toward (1) "older" Italian ancestry in Western Calabria and (2) more Iberomaurusian, which could go back to Paleo times, but likely reflects Carthaginian, Moorish and/or Jewish inputs.



    Target: malaparte
    Distance: 0.7165% / 0.71653806
    34.8 La_Tène
    22.7 Minoan
    20.3 Catacomb
    11.8 C_Italian_N
    7.1 C_Italian_ChL
    2.7 Iberomaurusian
    0.6 Hallstatt




    Distance to: malaparte
    9.02623399 La_Tène:Austria_I11701
    9.23199870 La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
    10.54502726 La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
    11.85016878 La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
    11.95431721 La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
    12.00172904 La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
    12.01710032 La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
    12.64079903 La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
    12.80020703 La_Tène:Austria_I11708
    13.01991551 La_Tène:Austria_I11699
    13.45162815 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
    14.00759080 Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227
    14.04352164 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    14.45504410 La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
    14.69837066 La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
    14.74309330 La_Tène:Czechia_I15953
    15.17342084 Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071
    15.51416450 La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
    15.72344110 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    15.76366709 La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
    15.86737533 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983
    16.14664671 La_Tène:Czechia_I17321
    16.25061230 La_Tène:Czechia_I15048
    16.40958561 La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712
    16.45815907 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046

    Distance to: malaparte
    2.53609862 37.40% Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 62.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    3.00969471 37.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 62.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    3.41612929 37.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017 + 63.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    3.81560746 36.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 63.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    3.97316857 44.20% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019 + 55.80% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
    4.03543998 44.80% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019 + 55.20% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
    4.10242064 45.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 54.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    4.15180098 44.20% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019 + 55.80% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
    4.19193759 36.80% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019 + 63.20% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    4.20760830 47.80% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019 + 52.20% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
    4.21848009 34.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 66.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I16273
    4.22135596 38.60% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 61.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I16270
    4.31472306 37.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 62.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I16270
    4.36000191 37.40% Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 62.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    4.38113407 36.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019 + 63.40% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    4.39126211 41.60% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019 + 58.40% C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    4.42197334 47.40% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019 + 52.60% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
    4.42714939 34.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 66.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I16273
    4.44379054 44.60% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019 + 55.40% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
    4.46784130 36.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 63.80% La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    4.47448911 41.00% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021 + 59.00% La_Tène:Czechia_I17313
    4.50970532 31.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 68.60% La_Tène:Czechia_I16269
    4.54260726 41.60% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019 + 58.40% C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    4.60411913 44.00% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019 + 56.00% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
    4.62720932 44.40% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019 + 55.60% C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-10-21
    Posts
    198

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    I want to clarify some of the components of the calculator Jovialis designed.

    C_Italian_N presumably stands for Central Italian Neolithic? Is this a different population source than Minoans? Why do Etruscans score high in it relative to others?

    C_Italian_ChL presumably stands for Central Italian Chalcolithic? Is this meant to reflect Bell Beaker migrations into Italy?

    If Sardians are 77% C_Italian_ChL and 23% C_Italian_N, then they must have been shielded from the many waves of Minoan-like peoples [Antalolia_N plus CHG/IN] that swept over the rest of the Italian South. And it's surprising that there is no Iberomaurusian ancestry in Sardinia????

    Also, it strikes me as bizarre that Siciliy has on average 0% of these two components.

  15. #15
    Regular Member italouruguayan's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-04-17
    Location
    Montevideo, Uruguay
    Posts
    333

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1B U106 L44
    MtDNA haplogroup
    A2

    Ethnic group
    Mixed , mostly Italian
    Country: Uruguay



    1 members found this post helpful.
    My results:


    Distance to: italouruguayan
    16.62701116 La_Tène: Hungary_I18489
    17.44049885 La_Tène: Austria_I11701
    18.02327107 La_Tène: Czechia_I17139
    18.79803181 La_Tène: Hungary_I18220
    18.86551351 La_Tène: Czechia_I15047
    18.88750910 La_Tène: Czechia_I14988
    19.07942871 La_Tène: Austria_I11708
    19.10956828 La_Tène: Czechia_I14986
    19.26264001 La_Tène: Czechia_I15952
    20.13859975 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
    20.20676372 La_Tène: Austria_I11699
    20.20684043 La_Tène: Slovakia_I11716
    20.30100244 Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227
    20.98470395 La_Tène: Czechia_I14984
    21.08629887 La_Tène: Czechia_I17145
    21.34666484 La_Tène: Czechia_I15953
    21.76282840 La_Tène:Hungary_I18181
    21.95401558 Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071
    22.00161130 Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983
    22.05562513 La_Tène:Czechia_I17315
    22.05920443 La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
    22.08379496 La_Tène: Czechia_I17143
    22.20115538 La_Tène: Czechia_I15954
    22.29781828 La_Tène:Czechia_I15048
    22.48745206 La_Tène: Czechia_I14987
    22.60981866 La_Tène:Czechia_I17321
    22.63504805 La_Tène: Czechia_I16269
    22.65098894 La_Tène:Czechia_I17314
    22.69497742 Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014
    22.72011664 Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781
    22.72699056 Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088
    22.77652300 La_Tène: Slovakia_I11712
    23.08986574 La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
    23.12747716 La_Tène:Czechia_I14985
    23.28786809 La_Tène: Slovakia_I11713
    23.36444735 La_Tène: Hungary_I18182
    23.38016895 La_Tène:Czechia_I15039
    23.40082905 Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327
    23.45092749 La_Tène: Slovakia_I11715
    23.70114132 La_Tène: Czechia_I16271
    23.95780666 La_Tène: Hungary_I18110
    23.97534358 La_Tène: Czechia_I15040
    24.04427999 La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
    24.51686154 La_Tène: Czechia_I15951
    24.68204003 La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
    24.89455764 La_Tène: Czechia_I17146
    25.37379948 La_Tène:Czechia_I15044
    25.49277349 La_Tène: Czechia_I16273
    26.67937593 La_Tène:Czechia_I17316
    26.86003909 La_Tène: Czechia_I17320
    27.79867263 La_Tène: Czechia_I15045
    27.99610151 La_Tène: Czechia_I15950
    28.17119451 La_Tène:Czechia_I13780
    28.23461882 La_Tène:Czechia_I17317
    28.29225866 Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326
    28.54849908 La_Tène: Czechia_I16272
    28.86619303 La_Tène: Czechia_I16270
    29.34601677 La_Tène: Hungary_I18183
    30.80380171 La_Tène: Czechia_I15049
    31.87272188 La_Tène:Czechia_I17313
    33.24009176 La_Tène:Czechia_I16268
    33.70303102 La_Tène:Czechia_I17327
    34.48513738 La_Tène:Czechia_I17322
    35.55360741 La_Tène: Hungary_I18226
    36.79605685 Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017
    37.77199756 Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092
    38.04258141 C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
    38.92345951 Minoan: Lasithi: I9005: Lazaridis_2017
    39.24189598 Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
    40.33522034 Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017
    40.46768835 Minoan: Petras_EBA: Pta08: Clemente_2021
    40.67994223 Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
    41.37306491 C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
    41.37859350 Minoan: Lasithi: I0074: Lazaridis_2017
    41.68839647 C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
    41.70165105 Minoan: Lasithi: I0071: Lazaridis_2017
    41.86577958 C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
    41.94096208 C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
    42.11336486 C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
    42.34487100 C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
    42.46943842 C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
    42.76264374 C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
    43.09636760 Minoan: Lasithi: I0073: Lazaridis_2017
    43.18381410 Minoan: Lasithi: I0070: Lazaridis_2017
    43.36973253 C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
    43.82320846 Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
    44.18649907 Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
    45.28969861 C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019
    45.38223110 C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
    46.12827766 Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
    46.25511323 Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017
    49.83429341 Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
    50.31556121 Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
    50.53211157 C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
    72.08051748 Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018
    73.30095088 Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018
    73.37426592 Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018
    74.11252593 Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018
    74.23569896 Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018
    75.00045067 Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018
    75.08893793 Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
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    156


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Additionally, say if I take out catacomb, and minoan, and just keep the sicilian_BA samples, the fits for the South become much more distant:

    That is an interesting result, but since Sicily (L)BA had also some CHG/Iran_N contribution, I expected that at least some of the Minoan and Catacomb bits would be due to it. On the face of it it would seam Sicily (L)BA-like folks in Italy (from the abstract of a study we know Sicily IA was like Sicily BA) died out completely without leaving much of a trace even in the south.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
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    14-10-21
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a-Z1903>>PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Ethnic group
    Italian, English, Irish
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    If Sardians are 77% C_Italian_ChL and 23% C_Italian_N, then they must have been shielded from the many waves of Minoan-like peoples [Antalolia_N plus CHG/IN] that swept over the rest of the Italian South. And it's surprising that there is no Iberomaurusian ancestry in Sardinia.
    The Sardinian results on the calculator don't seem to square with the 2019 Fernandes paper on the Western Mediterranean

  18. #18
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
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    6,871

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    I want to clarify some of the components of the calculator Jovialis designed.

    C_Italian_N presumably stands for Central Italian Neolithic? Is this a different population source than Minoans? Why do Etruscans score high in it relative to others?

    C_Italian_ChL presumably stands for Central Italian Chalcolithic? Is this meant to reflect Bell Beaker migrations into Italy?

    If Sardians are 77% C_Italian_ChL and 23% C_Italian_N, then they must have been shielded from the many waves of Minoan-like peoples [Antalolia_N plus CHG/IN] that swept over the rest of the Italian South. And it's surprising that there is no Iberomaurusian ancestry in Sardinia????

    Also, it strikes me as bizarre that Siciliy has on average 0% of these two components.
    WHG and Steppe-like admixture are hard to decern in these old calculators, because they are both assigned the same component of "Northern European". Thus, I tend to avoid using "Pure" WHG sample.

    Indeed, that is what they stand for.

    Central Italian Neolithic has WHG, while Minoan does not; both have Anatolia_N + Iran_N. Though Minoan has a bit more Iran_N.

    Central Italian Chalcolithic has even more WHG than Neolithic, because of a copper age WHG resurgence.

    You can check out the C_Italian_N and C_Italian_ChL samples in Antonio et al. 2019

    Minoan mostly comes from Lazaridis et al. 2017, and one sample from Clemente et al. 2021

    Sardinians do not seem to jive well with these models. However, I didn't include the Sardinian samples from the Fernandes et al. 2020 paper in my demonstration with Sicily BA. I am kind of busy at the moment, but I will experiment with that later.

    Southern Italy, and Sicily seems to have more affinity to the Minoan samples, maybe because they didn't receive the WHG resurgence, the center received in the copper age.

  19. #19
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Fwiw, one of the models gives me 20.6 Central Italian Chalcolithic, and I am indeed 100% Italian.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Regio X's Avatar
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    Country: Italy



    3 members found this post helpful.
    K12b, using the coordinates posted by Jovialis. (Cycles - 4x. Results slightly change in each run.)
    Target Distance C_Italian_ChL C_Italian_N Catacomb Hallstatt Hungary_1180BC La_Tène Minoan
    RegioX_FTDNA 0.32825127 11.9 0.1 5.0 0.0 0.0 56.4 26.6
    RegioX_23andMe 0.34043413 11.7 0.0 5.2 0.0 0.0 55.3 27.8
    Father_23andMe 0.39675131 11.9 0.0 8.9 0.0 0.0 52.7 26.5
    Mother_23andMe 0.21845026 2.4 0.4 3.3 0.5 12.2 54.4 26.8
    Uncle_FTDNA 0.43999382 0.6 0.0 1.0 19.4 11.8 37.4 29.8
    In-law_23andMe 0.67323846 0.0 0.0 6.1 0.0 12.5 49.0 32.4
    Average 0.39951987 6.4 0.1 4.9 3.3 6.1 50.9 28.3

    An interesting thing that called my attention in this new paper is that many samples resemble modern North Italians/Spanish in admix, which inevitably brings us to Latin/Etruscan Autosomal. Since that old PCA that showed some Etruscan samples, we knew that Etruscans should plot this way approximately, and the Roman Soldier FN2 (as well the Swiss Iron Age sample SX18) reinforced the notion that this autosomal feature was likely common in parts of Italy and in the Alps those times. Indeed, the suggestion of the authors that FN2 was actually from SW Europe surprised me.
    But I would not guess that this kind of admix would have survived in Eastern Europe for so long. I think it shows the ancestors of Etruscans and Latins who brought related languages to Italy in LBA/EIA(?) could have been similar.

    Some examples of South Euro-like samples (apart those many from Croatia and Slovenia, less "surprising"), including the supposed closest modern individual in Autosomal (among those available):
    - I11716, 167-46 BCE, Slovakia La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I15047, 260-180 BCE, Czech La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I17139, 290-250 BCE, Czech La Tène: Italian Lombardy
    - I25522, 300-100 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I25512, 300-100 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Trentino
    - I25510, 300-100 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Trentino
    - I18531, 320-180 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Spanish Baleares
    - I18529, 320-180 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Veneto
    - I18528, 320-180 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I18220, 320-200 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I25508, 320-200 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Spanish Barcelones
    - I18835, 320-200 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Trentino
    - I18834, 320-200 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I18832, 320-200 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Albanian
    - I18493, 320-260 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Albanian
    - I18491, 320-260 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Trentino
    - I18489, 320-260 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I20518, 330-280 BCE, Czech La Tène: Italian Northeast
    - I17146, 330-280 BCE, Czech La Tène: Spanish Catalunya
    - I17145, 330-280 BCE, Czech La Tène: Spanish Mallorca
    - I18530, 381-203 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Spanish Lleida
    - I4998, 391-208 BCE, Hungary La Tène: Italian Tuscany
    - I20513, 400-200 BCE, Czech La Tène: Spanish Catalunya Central
    - I18259, 420-300 BCE, Hungary: Italian Piedmont
    - I11708, 500-200 BCE, Austria La Tène: Italian Aosta Valley
    - I11701, 500-200 BCE, Austria La Tène: Italian Trentino
    - I11699, 500-200 BCE, Austria La Tène: Spanish Catalunya Central
    - I25507, 650-550 BCE, Hungary: Italian Lombardy
    - I14465, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Italian Northeast
    - I12105, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Central Macedonia
    - I12099, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Italian Bergamo
    - I12098, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Italian Veneto
    - I12097, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Italian Lazio
    - I11722, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: French Corsica
    - I11721, 650-500 BCE, Slovakia: Italian Lombardy
    - I16086, 800-550 BCE, Czech Hallstatt: Spanish Aragon
    - I14980, 800-550 BCE, Czech Hallstatt: Spanish Camp de Tarragona
    - I11683, 900-650 BCE, Hungary: Italian Veneto
    - I18246, 900-650 BCE, Hungary: Italian Northeast
    - I18239, 900-650 BCE, Hungary: Italian Northeast
    - I15961, 1300-800 BCE, Czech: Italian Trentino
    - I25504, 1000-800 BCE, Hungary: Italian Trentino
    - I13794, 1300-800 BCE, Czech: Italian Trentino
    - I13786, 1300-800 BCE, Czech: Italian Trentino

  21. #21
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Fwiw, one of the models gives me 20.6 Central Italian Chalcolithic, and I am indeed 100% Italian.
    I definitely know that you're 100% Italian, Piedmontese to be precise. You drink Barolo on good days, Barbera most other days. Somehow I missed your 20.6 Chalcolithic.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
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    fwiw, if you're looking for a recommendation available NYC area =

    https://cantinebenvenuto.it/i-vini

  23. #23
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    @Malaparte

    You are Dominique_nuit

    Why did you create a separate account? Did you get locked out?

  24. #24
    Regular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Malaparte

    You are Dominique_nuit

    Why did you create a separate account? Did you get locked out?
    I thought I got banned for drunken late night rants. But in fact it seems I was merely having difficulty signing in on my old laptop.

    And despite my wine tip this evening, I drink very little nowadays. I quit my job in restaurant management, which goes a long way toward maintaining an even, sober keel.

  25. #25
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malaparte View Post
    I thought I got banned for drunken late night rants. But in fact it seems I was merely having difficulty signing in on my old laptop.

    And despite my wine tip this evening, I drink very little nowadays. I quit my job in restaurant management, which goes a long way toward maintaining an even, sober keel.
    As far as I can tell, your old account only has a couple expired infractions, you weren't banned.

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