La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

Palermo Trapani · Jan 15, 2022

Jovialis: Here are how the C6 Romans from Antonio et al 2019 fit using the model you put together, with assist from Duarte adding the Yamnaya. The Average Distance for the C6 Romans is 0.7025. Very good Model for the C6 Roman Cluster. I know you, Salento and I have always plotted well vs. the C6 Roman Cluster from Antonio et al. 2019 [ My results for this model are reported in post #100].For the C7 Romans, the fit is 0.54. very, very good there as well.

For the C5 the fit is 6.13, C4 16.08, the C3 2.2 (The Iberomaurusian explains 21% of that cluster). The C2 fits exceptionally well with a distance of 0.17 and the C1 has a fit of 15.49.

Jovialis · Jan 15, 2022

This is what happens when I add Anatolian_BA and Mycenaean to the model. Now R850 gets a much better fit, and is almost completely Anatolian_BA.

torzio · Jan 15, 2022

Jovialis said:
This is what happens when I add Anatolian_BA and Mycenaean to the model. Now R850 gets a much better fit, and is almost completely Anatolian_BA.

since I have no Asia Minor ......but have Yamnaya
which is why I fit with all the "yellows"

the last company to have me having some percentage of Asia Minor was Ftdna .................they gave up on this 2 years ago

Jovialis · Jan 15, 2022

torzio said:
since I have no Asia Minor ......but have Yamnayawhich is why I fit with all the "yellows"the last company to have me having some percentage of Asia Minor was Ftdna .................they gave up on this 2 years ago

High Yamnaya results in this model are from steppe ancestry not subsumed by Le Tene, Hallstatt, or BR2.

Jovialis · Jan 15, 2022

Some of the Yamnaya may also be representative of WHG. In Dodecad, both WHG and Steppe get "Northern European", so they are hard to determine due to overlap, with this tool

Jovialis · Jan 16, 2022

I don't have it organized the way I want, atm because I'm busy with family stuff today. But here is the new model with some very interesting results. Catacomb has been eliminated, mostly by Sintashta, but I also put in a few other steppe populations, and LBA Central and Northern European populations. Le Tene has been greatly reduced in many areas.

I'll repost this later, organized by geography.

Despite all the new additions, none of them fit me better than Yamnaya.

Jovialis · Jan 17, 2022

Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:

Duarte · Jan 17, 2022

Again, a nice work.
With the populations above (footer posts #s 106 and 107) my results are the following.

Adding to them all Iberian populations MLN/CA my results change to these. At distances below 1.34 the presence of (Anatolia_BA + Nordic_BA) at high percentages in the sorted populations displayed by the algorithm is a curious fact to me because I can’t imagine these two pops in my admixture. That means that I am so mixed that at low distances I can’t obtain a satisfactory admixture.

Duarte · Jan 17, 2022

Jovialis said:
Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:

Dear Jovialis.
When I add to the same populations that you selected above the ‘Beaker’ populations (Bell_Beaker, Beaker_The_Netherlands, Beaker_Southern_France, Beaker_Northern_Italy, Beaker_Iberia, Beaker_Central_Europe, Beaker_Britain), in my specific case the ‘Corded Ware’ is substituted by the ‘Beaker’, and ‘Catacomb’ is replaced by ‘Anatolia_BA’ and I get a better fit, that is, under 3.

Before (post #108)

Now with ‘Beaker’ added

Jovialis · Jan 17, 2022

Nice model, I'll experiment with it more later.An observation I made from the chart I posted is that Iberians are best fit with Italian_N, Italians are best fit with Minoans, (and some copper age Italian in the North), Balkans are best fit with Anatolian BA. It is like the non-steppe ancestry is shifted to the east for all of them.

Leopoldo Leone · Jan 17, 2022

Jovialis said:
Nice model, I'll experiment with it more later.An observation I made from the chart I posted is that Iberians are best fit with Italian_N, Italians are best fit with Minoans, (and some copper age Italian in the North), Balkans are best fit with Anatolian BA. It is like the non-steppe ancestry is shifted to the east for all of them.

I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1.full.pdf

ihype02 · Jan 17, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1.full.pdf

There are Anatolians outliers in Roman Macedonia and this ancestry affected Bulgarians too. Also many Armenians and Syrians settled in Thrace during the Middle Ages, that were likely assimilated by Bulgarians too to a certain extend even though the great majority of them were probably Turkified.

If the Serb-like Slavic samples that Davidski saw are from the 9th century, then it means modern Bulgarians have more southern related ancestry.

Pax Augusta · Jan 17, 2022

Leopoldo Leone said:
I notice you've noticed too: all southern Europeans (minus basques and sardinians) seem to have been "eastern shifted" (meaning they are upward shifted in the PCA and have higher CHG/Iran_N levels) compared to their IA ancestors, which means that whatever explanation that is invoked to explain what happened in Italy must also be appliable to south Europe at large, at least in a domino effect fashion.

Addendum: this observation is also supported in this paper, though I think the only thing right it got is the claim that Bulgarians need more CHG compared to their BA ancestors, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1.full.pdf

Even modern-day Sardinians.

Angela · Jan 17, 2022

Jovialis said:
Here is a better visualization, grouped into geographic and/or cultural blocs:

Very interesting work, Jovialis.

The switch from the Nordic Bronze Age heavy English to the La Tene heavy "Celtic fringe" groups is extremely clear and mirrors what we know of the migration patterns of the Anglo-Saxons in the British Isles.

Your method also clearly captures the Corded Ware in eastern Europe, and its paucity in the west and south of Europe, again mirroring what we know of migration patterns. You can clearly see the decline with movement to the west, with Sweden having more than Norway, and Germany in between, while the Dutch have virtually none. I would bet that in Germany too it would decline from Eastern Germany to Western and Southwestern Germany.

You can see it in the Greeks as well, which makes sense as the Greek sample is from Thessaly, and then look how some even made it to Southern Italy, probably, I would submit, with Greek migration, leading to the phenomenon that in Italy it declines as one goes from south to north.

It's also in the Ashkenazim, which mirrors IBD analyses showing absorption of Eastern European ancestry in them. It's a great way to visualize the differences between the Ashkenazim, the Sephardim, and Moroccan Jews, as well. Furthermore, for all the talk about how genetically similar Jews are to Southern Italians/Sicilians, this shows that although when only looking at two dimensions, as on a PCA, they may plot near one another, the component percentages are different.

I also find it interesting that while the Anatolian Bronze Age shows up in the Balkans (Romanians, Bulgarians etc.), Greeks, and Southern Italians/Sicilians, it doesn't show up in Northern Italians, Tuscans, or Central Italians. Minoan does show up in them, however, constituting at least 40% in Tuscans, but declining sharply after that. Neither shows up in Iberians, leaving them up to and exceeding 50% Neolithic, Chalcolithic and more, if one considers that groups like Hallstatt and La Tene are also heavily Neolithic.

As far as Tuscans are concerned I don't see much of a difference between TSI and Tuscan HGDP, as I've always maintained. Northwestern Tuscans/Emilians like the Lunigianesi might be different.

Turning to the ancient samples, it's also clear from this analyses that the "Minoan" component was definitely present in Iron Age Italy, and this doesn't include ancient Southern Italian samples. It will be very interesting to see those samples when they're made available, as it would be to see the Sicilian Bronze Age samples analyzed in this way.

All in all it's amazing how well this analysis correlates with the findings of academic papers.

Congratulation, Jovialis.

Jovialis · Jan 17, 2022

Thanks Angela! This was a lot of fun to put together too.

Vallicanus · Jan 17, 2022

Jovialis said:
Thanks Angela! This was a lot of fun to put together too.

Would it be possible for you to combine all 14 elements to use with K12b on Vahaduo.Thanks.

Jovialis · Jan 18, 2022

Sure thing, here is what I used:

Code:

Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015,26.6,1.31,0,0,7.93,64.16,0,0,0,0,0,0
Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015,22.07,0,0,0,0,70.45,0,0,0,0,7.49,0
Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015,26.54,0,0,0,10.09,63.38,0,0,0,0,0,0
Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015,27.76,0,0.93,0,3.91,65.86,0,0,0,0,1.35,0.19
Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015,23.64,0.86,0,0,9.61,64.98,0.74,0,0,0,0,0.17
Yamnaya:RISE552:Allentoft_2015,30.94,1.6,0,0.01,2.06,61.11,0.39,0,0,0,3.1,0.78
Yamnaya:I0231_SVP3:Haak_2015,28.48,2.19,0,0,1.43,59.76,2.73,0,0,0,4.53,0.89
Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015,31.45,0.86,0,0.77,4.05,54.56,2.22,0,0,0,6.09,0
Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015,24.66,6.11,0,0,0,59.29,0,0,0,0,9.32,0.62
Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015,26.2,3.3,0,0,2.84,64.62,2.03,0,0,0,0,1
Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015,23.9,4.62,0,0,0,60.95,1.32,0.31,0,0,8.64,0.26
Yamnaya:I0439_SVP52:Haak_2015,22.28,1.63,0,0,12.89,54.54,0.24,0,0,0,8.41,0
Yamnaya:I0441_SVP54:Haak_2015,33.48,1.54,0,0,0,56.53,8.46,0,0,0,0,0
Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015,28.03,2.76,0,0,5.5,59.49,0,0,0,0,3.22,1
Yamnaya:I0444_SVP58:Haak_2015,30.94,0.57,0,0,3.61,59.43,0,0.11,0,0,2.51,2.83
Yamnaya:MJ-06:Jarve_2019,25.85,2.18,0,0,7.49,54.14,0,0.01,0,0,7.93,2.4
Yamnaya:I1917:Mathieson_2018,25.24,1.78,0,0.15,8.03,36.55,0.44,0,0.38,0,25.75,1.68
Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018,25.39,2.85,0,0,1.94,58.76,1.17,0,0,0,8.18,1.72
Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018,24.66,4.21,0,0,2.47,64.51,1.21,0,0,0,2.93,0
Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
Sintashta:RISE386:Allentoft_2015,15.34,0.38,0,0,24.56,55.73,0,0,0,0,3.31,0.68
Sintashta:RISE391:Allentoft_2015,21.58,0,1.04,0,23.99,46.8,0,0,0,0,6.6,0
Sintashta:RISE392:Allentoft_2015,12.29,0,0.39,0,30.03,57.18,0,0,0,0,0,0.11
Sintashta:RISE394:Allentoft_2015,16.36,0,0,0,26.29,56.64,0,0,0,0,0.71,0
Sintashta:RISE395:Allentoft_2015,14.51,0,0,0,30.54,54.26,0,0,0,0,0.16,0.52
Corded_Ware:RISE00:Allentoft_2015,10.49,0.15,0,0,31.63,56.79,0.94,0,0,0,0,0
Corded_Ware:RISE1:Allentoft_2015,9.53,2.23,0,0,20.52,67.27,0,0,0,0,0.46,0
Corded_Ware:RISE434:Allentoft_2015,15.93,0,0,0,23.21,60.04,0,0,0,0,0,0.82
Corded_Ware:RISE435:Allentoft_2015,1.49,0,0,0,21.13,68.03,0,0,0,0,9.36,0
Corded_Ware:RISE436:Allentoft_2015,4.85,0,0,0,33.39,44.75,0,0.03,0,3.08,12.21,1.7
Corded_Ware:RISE446:Allentoft_2015,10.44,0,0,0,25.54,64.02,0,0,0,0,0,0
Nordic_BA:RISE21:Allentoft_2015,4.12,0,0,5.51,46.97,43.4,0,0,0,0,0,0
Nordic_BA:RISE47:Allentoft_2015,4.99,0,0,0,37.63,55.78,0,0,0,0,1.6,0
Nordic_BA:RISE175:Allentoft_2015,0,0,0,0,44.56,55.44,0,0,0,0,0,0
Nordic_BA:RISE207:Allentoft_2015,0,0,0,0,34.31,62.47,0,0,0,0,0,3.22
Nordic_BA:RISE210:Allentoft_2015,10.3,0,0,0,40.72,43.49,0,0,0,0,5.5,0
Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781,6.20,0.00,0.00,0.14,38.66,39.72,0.85,0.00,2.30,0.67,10.26,1.20
Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980,0.65,0,3.67,0,41.76,30.94,0,0,6.19,0,16.55,0.23
Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983,4.66,0.11,0.74,0.18,35.81,41.52,0.39,0,1.8,0,14.18,0.61
Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071,5.13,0.00,2.36,0.00,38.23,39.29,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00,14.03,0.52
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088,5.87,2.57,0.00,0.00,38.83,39.71,0.00,0.00,3.62,0.00,8.54,0.86
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092,0.00,0.00,4.08,0.00,59.70,12.92,0.00,0.00,6.68,0.07,16.15,0.41
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326,3.57,0.00,0.37,1.34,33.64,48.74,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.19,7.01,1.64
Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327,6.72,0,0,0,38.03,40.63,0,0.07,4.2,1.47,7.85,1.02
Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227,3.73,0.00,2.56,0.10,37.43,38.27,0.11,0.29,3.18,0.29,13.84,0.2
Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014,1.09,0,0.38,0,36.78,41.52,0,0,3.74,0,16.14,0.36
La_Tène:Austria_I11699,4.19,0,1.44,0,41.59,32.68,0,0.82,4.89,0,14.38,0.01
La_Tène:Austria_I11701,5.29,0.3,0.06,0.66,39.07,29.93,0,0,4.92,0,19.15,0.61
La_Tène:Austria_I11708,1.23,1.05,0,0.31,39.79,32.82,0.19,0,6.08,0,17.86,0.66
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712,6.95,0,0.08,0.12,39.88,38.44,0,0,3.58,0,10,0.94
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11713,3.46,0.21,0.11,0,40.46,38.98,1.4,0.41,3.55,0,10.52,0.89
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715,6.92,0.29,2.98,0,41.55,37.22,0,0,1.97,0,9.08,0
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716,0.74,0,0.22,1.14,40.3,32.92,0.69,0,3.69,0,19.61,0.7
La_Tène:Czechia_I13780,5.38,1.33,0,0,32.76,48.77,1.77,0,0,0,7.56,2.44
La_Tène:Czechia_I14984,6.26,0.51,0.61,0,40.39,35.64,1.22,0,2.95,0,11.64,0.77
La_Tène:Czechia_I14985,4.29,0,1.4,1.01,40.26,38.95,0,0,0.33,0,12.99,0.78
La_Tène:Czechia_I14986,5.97,0,0.77,0,38.96,34.65,1.11,0,3.93,0.21,13.55,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I14987,6.43,0.9,0,0,37.01,41.05,0.6,0,2.69,0,10.88,0.44
La_Tène:Czechia_I14988,4.53,0.85,0.32,0,35.88,37.63,0.74,0.22,2.82,0.12,16.9,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I15039,5.35,0,1.19,0.39,38.55,40.86,0,0.16,1.07,0,11.66,0.77
La_Tène:Czechia_I15040,6.9,0,0.37,0,33.57,44.72,0,0,2.07,0.22,11.96,0.19
La_Tène:Czechia_I15042,3.47,0.8,0.2,0.13,44.35,31.51,0,0,5.22,0,13.52,0.8
La_Tène:Czechia_I15043,4.29,0.88,2.1,0,44.01,35.76,0,0,0,0,12.67,0.28
La_Tène:Czechia_I15044,7.62,1.53,0.28,0,40.01,41,0,0.71,0.89,0.27,7,0.69
La_Tène:Czechia_I15045,9.49,0,0,0,34.78,46.32,1.89,0,0,0,6.2,1.33
La_Tène:Czechia_I15046,5.2,1.05,1.14,0,43.61,34.94,0,0,1.53,0,12.22,0.31
La_Tène:Czechia_I15047,3.93,0,0,0.22,34.94,37.96,0,0,4.24,0,17.84,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I15048,5.3,0.74,0.77,0,40.79,37.41,0.23,0,3.89,0.23,10.49,0.17
La_Tène:Czechia_I15049,8.92,0,0.15,0.46,37.94,47.13,1.02,0,0,0,2.74,1.63
La_Tène:Czechia_I15950,10.47,1.57,0,0,33.96,46.93,0,0,0,0,5.89,1.18
La_Tène:Czechia_I15951,3.16,0.14,1.48,0.12,38.76,42.27,0,0,2.5,0.08,10.45,1.04
La_Tène:Czechia_I15952,4.95,0,1.78,0.88,39.05,34.78,1.37,0,2.98,0,13.45,0.76
La_Tène:Czechia_I15953,5.79,0.98,0.24,0,39.9,37.06,0,0.94,2.66,0,12.25,0.18
La_Tène:Czechia_I15954,5.18,0.26,0.82,0,43.27,33.25,1.54,0.8,2.62,0,11.64,0.64
La_Tène:Czechia_I16268,8.79,0.24,0,0.06,34.04,51.76,1.42,0.52,0,0.18,2.23,0.76
La_Tène:Czechia_I16269,8.78,0,0.27,0,29.22,44.7,0.11,0,3.07,0.96,12.88,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I16270,12.7,1.80,1.81,0.00,34.56,45.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.37,1.23
La_Tène:Czechia_I16271,5.6,0,1.47,0.06,44.02,34.86,0,0.1,2.48,0,10.74,0.69
La_Tène:Czechia_I16272,8.03,0.69,0.00,0.00,31.58,49.44,0.00,0.62,0.84,0.04,7.67,1.10
La_Tène:Czechia_I16273,10.04,0,0.73,0,34.02,44.93,0,0,0,0,9.82,0.46
La_Tène:Czechia_I17139,2.69,0.04,1.28,0.26,38.8,28.7,0,0,4.4,0.09,22.51,1.23
La_Tène:Czechia_I17143,5.12,0.49,1.48,0.86,43.13,33.7,0,0,2.33,0,12.21,0.67
La_Tène:Czechia_I17145,2.3,0.3,0.43,0,41.29,35.07,0,0,4.78,0.36,14.51,0.95
La_Tène:Czechia_I17146,5.65,0.64,1.76,0.05,45.71,33.25,0,0.56,3.92,0,7.79,0.66
La_Tène:Czechia_I17313,13.7,1.02,0,0,35.61,47.62,0,0,0,0,0.97,1.09
La_Tène:Czechia_I17314,5.85,1.32,0.00,0.00,41.56,36.74,0.00,0.57,3.45,0.00,9.87,0.64
La_Tène:Czechia_I17315,4.93,0,4.08,0,35,41.51,1.24,0.64,1.36,0,11.25,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I17316,13.42,0.65,0,0,25.62,47.4,0,1.28,0,0,10.27,1.36
La_Tène:Czechia_I17317,3.11,0.22,0.00,0.36,32.01,49.73,0.73,0.63,0.00,0.68,10.93,1.60
La_Tène:Czechia_I17320,5.52,0,0.22,0,30.04,48.88,0,0,0,0.01,13.2,2.13
La_Tène:Czechia_I17321,6.61,0,1.37,0.9,41.3,36.61,0,0,2.5,0,10.22,0.47
La_Tène:Czechia_I17322,10.44,0.25,0,0,28.23,54.81,0.06,1.64,0,0,3.84,0.73
La_Tène:Czechia_I17323,4.86,0,1.71,1.51,46.77,31.05,0.65,0,1.76,0,10.83,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I17327,9.99,0.00,0.00,1.81,31.56,52.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,1.88
La_Tène:Hungary_I18110,4.68,0,0.3,0,41.31,39.19,0,0,2.15,0,11.6,0.77
La_Tène:Hungary_I18181,0,0,0,1.79,36.62,40.13,0,0,6.28,0,15.18,0
La_Tène:Hungary_I18182,3.74,0.64,0.26,1.37,33.44,44.42,0.5,0,1.76,0,12.92,0.94
La_Tène:Hungary_I18183,4,0,0,0.22,26.55,52.28,1.06,0,1.02,0.46,13.62,0.79
La_Tène:Hungary_I18220,2.2,0.52,0,0,37.2,35.39,0,0,2.78,1.4,19.78,0.74
La_Tène:Hungary_I18226,6.19,1.77,0,0.62,16.76,58.11,0.31,0,1.82,0,13.32,1.09
La_Tène:Hungary_I18489,4.74,0.5,1.97,0.97,37.64,32.44,0,0,3.52,0.67,16.94,0.61
C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.77,0.12,60.45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.76,0,63.45,3.27,0,0,10.15,0,20.2,0.17
C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.67,0,64.87,0.54,0,0,0,0,31.92,0
C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.61,0,54.5,0,0,0.17,12.44,0,29.12,0.16
C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.22,0,52.75,0,0,0,11.28,0.2,31.18,0.38
C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11.16,0,0.32,7.34,0.2,9.11,0
C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.42,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.2,0.44,29.46,0.24
C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.58,0,50.8,0,0,0,13.79,0,32.49,0.34
C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.35,0,53.37,0,0,0,13.76,0,29.52,0
C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.41,0,57.73,1.14,0,0,9.12,0.21,28.3,0.09
C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.12,0,50.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.72,0,51.41,0,0,0.09,10.24,0,34.54,0
C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.33,0,55.74,0.85,0,0,9.83,0,29.26,0
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017,6.07,0,1.17,1.3,27.23,3.79,0,0,14.72,0,43.22,2.51
Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017,7.88,0.24,1.61,0,26.13,4.81,0,1.72,13.22,0.03,44.36,0
Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017,8.73,0.62,2.12,0.42,25.19,0.9,0,0,14.26,0,45.14,2.61
Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018,0,3.54,60.38,2.05,0,0,2.48,18.95,8.83,0,0,3.78
Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.55,63.9,3.27,0,0.17,1.39,18.7,5.98,0,0,6.05
Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.28,64.11,2.45,0,0.07,0.7,18.22,5.74,0.18,0,7.24
Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.79,63.81,0.8,0.44,0,3.27,16.18,5.76,0.59,0,7.35
Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.07,61.84,2.72,0,0.02,1.89,18.58,6.99,0,0,6.89
Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.74,62.76,2.95,0,0,2.12,18.14,5.34,0,0,7.95
Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0,62.82,1.87,0,0.9,0,15.76,6.67,3.45,0,8.52

Palermo Trapani · Jan 18, 2022

Jovialis Thanks for the coordinates and nice graphical presentation of the data in post 107. Angela, thanks for you observations in post 114. Here is my updated fits using the coordinates Jovialis provided in post 117 using my Ancestry, NATGENO, 23/Me and Combined (Ancestry/23ME) files. I also went ahead and ran the Sicilian Bronze Age samples using your approach Jovialis, along with the Sicilian Beaker. Even including the Low coverage sample the overall fit is 1.7, pretty good. When you take out the Low coverage sample (I4383) the overall fit is 1.12.

Jovialis · Jan 18, 2022

Np,Cool, your modeling looks fairly close to how R437 is modeled.

Angela · Jan 18, 2022

Not really a huge change. The majority of my matches are La Tene Central European ones, which makes sense, I suppose, but I get two Mycenaeans near the top. No Minoans at all.

Distance to:	Angela
11.05993671	La_Tène:Czechia_I17139
13.59220733	La_Tène:Austria_I11701
14.02280286	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
16.01455588	Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
16.21546484	Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980
16.33682650	La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716
16.93758247	La_Tène:Austria_I11708
17.01981786	La_Tène:Hungary_I18489
18.14376477	Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
18.42850509	La_Tène:Austria_I11699
18.67689482	La_Tène:Czechia_I15042
18.67808074	La_Tène:Hungary_I18220
20.38625272	La_Tène:Czechia_I17145
20.62161730	La_Tène:Czechia_I14986
20.79852879	La_Tène:Czechia_I15952
21.03071801	La_Tène:Czechia_I17143
21.05470256	C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
21.11858423	La_Tène:Czechia_I15954
21.18568857	La_Tène:Czechia_I17323
21.80443304	La_Tène:Czechia_I14988
21.84393509	La_Tène:Czechia_I15047
22.10847349	La_Tène:Czechia_I15046
22.66173647	La_Tène:Czechia_I14984
22.75870603	La_Tène:Czechia_I15043
22.89048055	Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017

Target: Angela Distance: 2.0035% / 2.00352957 \| ADC: 0.25x RC
53.3	La_Tène

37.2	Mycenaean

9.4	C_Italian_ChL

0.1	Minoan

I would have preferred the Minoans as I'm not a huge fan of the Mycenaeans, but there you go.

I wonder if it's because the Mycenaeans provide the extra bit of steppe I need.

This way I get pretty close, although it's more noisy. Now that I'm getting those stray bits of other steppe groups Minoan shows up instead of Mycenaean.

Target: Angela Distance: 0.1980% / 0.19803370
33.5	Minoan

19.8	C_Italian_ChL

11.1	La_Tène

10.8	Hungary_1180BC

8.0	Yamnaya

7.2	Nordic_BA

4.9	C_Italian_N

2.4	Corded_Ware

1.6	Hallstatt

0.7	Sintashta

Maybe there's some Beaker group out there which would better scoop up those stray steppe admixed cultures? Or a Bronze or Iron Age Balkan group?
We've had a couple of discussions as to whether the Langobards/Goths etc. had an impact on North central Italians and Tuscan. Well, I plot around the Lunigiana/Emilia and even I have under 10% max, so as I said, some people vastly exaggerate the impact imo.

The Mycenaean sample to which I'm closest is Italian shifted. It would be different, I think, if there was a Mycenaean average.

Distance to:	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
13.38799089	French_Corsica
13.95431116	Italian_Campania
14.15419726	Italian_Molise
14.46713047	Italian_Marche
14.84007412	Italian_Abruzzo
15.24896718	Italian_Sicily
15.31707544	Italian_Calabria
15.65797241	Italian_Umbria
16.00060311	Italian_Lazio
16.12514806	Italian_Romagna
16.14004337	Italian_Basilicata
16.34985015	Ashkenazi_Jew
17.06061253	Italian_Jew
17.17753184	Sephardic_Jew
17.18632887	Greek_Icaria
17.19559537	Italian_Tuscany
17.31559124	Italian_Apulia
17.74468089	Moldovan_Jewish
17.85539694	Morocco_Jew
18.14223801	Greek_Athens
18.46402719	Italian_Emilia
18.56272071	Greek_Central
18.57647437	Greek_Foca
18.60593185	Greek_Lemnos
18.71485773	Greek_Izmir

I

La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

Regular Member

Advisor

Regular Member

Advisor

Advisor

Advisor

Advisor

Regular Member

Regular Member

Advisor

Regular Member

Regular Member

Elite member

Elite member

Advisor

Regular Member

Advisor

Regular Member

Advisor

Elite member