La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

Jovialis · Jan 5, 2022

^^I must be on to something, because Italians (and Iberians) come out better than anyone else in the world using these populations.

Angela · Jan 5, 2022

Jovialis said:
That is because he is a t-roll, and his numbers are completely invented. Here is the modeling vs all other modern populations in the Dodecad set. His numbers are not possible.

The order is by goodness of fit; Italians are the best.

Most of these t-rolls know so little about Italy they can't even make up a plausible back story for themselves.

Others are so crazy that eventually the control slips and all the crazy comes pouring out like a torrent; the written version of forced manic speech. It's sad really; the poor families.

Jovialis · Jan 6, 2022

There are definitely some disturbed thoughts being posted by these loonies.

Duarte · Jan 6, 2022

In mixed mode I get better fits by modeling the samples selected by Jovialis with samples from Sardinia, Remedello and Saupe et al (Broion, Gattolino, Regina Margherita and La Sassa). I'm a mixed Iberian, mostly North Portuguese and Andalusian.

Original post of Jovialis:

Mixed mode adding samples from Sardinia, Remedello and Saupe et al (Broion, Gattolino, Regina Margherita and La Sassa):

Jovialis · Jan 7, 2022

Jovialis said:

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/14458/map-of-la-tene-culture/

Much praise to Maciamo for processing the Paterson et al. 2021 samples, and sharing them with me. I will include them in an update of the Individual samples for the aDNA catalog for Dodecad K12b.

I have included La Tène, and Hallstatt samples, in the modeling I had previously used for ancient and modern Italians, ( Hungarian_BA:BR2, Catacomb, C_Italian_N, C_Italian_ChL, Minoan, Iberomarusian)

Code:

Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan:Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
Hungary_1180BC:BR2:Gamba_2014,1.09,0,0.38,0,36.78,41.52,0,0,3.74,0,16.14,0.36
C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.77,0.12,60.45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.76,0,63.45,3.27,0,0,10.15,0,20.2,0.17
C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.67,0,64.87,0.54,0,0,0,0,31.92,0
C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.61,0,54.5,0,0,0.17,12.44,0,29.12,0.16
C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.22,0,52.75,0,0,0,11.28,0.2,31.18,0.38
C_Italian_N:R6:Antonio_2019,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11.16,0,0.32,7.34,0.2,9.11,0
C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.42,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.2,0.44,29.46,0.24
C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019,0,0,2.58,0,50.8,0,0,0,13.79,0,32.49,0.34
C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.35,0,53.37,0,0,0,13.76,0,29.52,0
C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.41,0,57.73,1.14,0,0,9.12,0.21,28.3,0.09
C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.12,0,50.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019,0,0,3.72,0,51.41,0,0,0.09,10.24,0,34.54,0
C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019,0,0,4.33,0,55.74,0.85,0,0,9.83,0,29.26,0
Iberomaurusian:TAF009:Loosdrecht_2018,0,3.54,60.38,2.05,0,0,2.48,18.95,8.83,0,0,3.78
Iberomaurusian:TAF010:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.55,63.9,3.27,0,0.17,1.39,18.7,5.98,0,0,6.05
Iberomaurusian:TAF011:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.28,64.11,2.45,0,0.07,0.7,18.22,5.74,0.18,0,7.24
Iberomaurusian:TAF012:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.79,63.81,0.8,0.44,0,3.27,16.18,5.76,0.59,0,7.35
Iberomaurusian:TAF013:Loosdrecht_2018,0,1.07,61.84,2.72,0,0.02,1.89,18.58,6.99,0,0,6.89
Iberomaurusian:TAF014:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0.74,62.76,2.95,0,0,2.12,18.14,5.34,0,0,7.95
Iberomaurusian:TAF015:Loosdrecht_2018,0,0,62.82,1.87,0,0.9,0,15.76,6.67,3.45,0,8.52
Hallstatt:Czechia_I13781,6.20,0.00,0.00,0.14,38.66,39.72,0.85,0.00,2.30,0.67,10.26,1.20
Hallstatt:Czechia_I14980,0.65,0,3.67,0,41.76,30.94,0,0,6.19,0,16.55,0.23
Hallstatt:Czechia_I14983,4.66,0.11,0.74,0.18,35.81,41.52,0.39,0,1.8,0,14.18,0.61
Hallstatt:Czechia_I15071,5.13,0.00,2.36,0.00,38.23,39.29,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00,14.03,0.52
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16088,5.87,2.57,0.00,0.00,38.83,39.71,0.00,0.00,3.62,0.00,8.54,0.86
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16092,0.00,0.00,4.08,0.00,59.70,12.92,0.00,0.00,6.68,0.07,16.15,0.41
Hallstatt:Czechia_I16326,3.57,0.00,0.37,1.34,33.64,48.74,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.19,7.01,1.64
Hallstatt:Hungary_I16327,6.72,0,0,0,38.03,40.63,0,0.07,4.2,1.47,7.85,1.02
Hallstatt:Czechia_I18227,3.73,0.00,2.56,0.10,37.43,38.27,0.11,0.29,3.18,0.29,13.84,0.2
La_Tène:Austria_I11699,4.19,0,1.44,0,41.59,32.68,0,0.82,4.89,0,14.38,0.01
La_Tène:Austria_I11701,5.29,0.3,0.06,0.66,39.07,29.93,0,0,4.92,0,19.15,0.61
La_Tène:Austria_I11708,1.23,1.05,0,0.31,39.79,32.82,0.19,0,6.08,0,17.86,0.66
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11712,6.95,0,0.08,0.12,39.88,38.44,0,0,3.58,0,10,0.94
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11713,3.46,0.21,0.11,0,40.46,38.98,1.4,0.41,3.55,0,10.52,0.89
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11715,6.92,0.29,2.98,0,41.55,37.22,0,0,1.97,0,9.08,0
La_Tène:Slovakia_I11716,0.74,0,0.22,1.14,40.3,32.92,0.69,0,3.69,0,19.61,0.7
La_Tène:Czechia_I13780,5.38,1.33,0,0,32.76,48.77,1.77,0,0,0,7.56,2.44
La_Tène:Czechia_I14984,6.26,0.51,0.61,0,40.39,35.64,1.22,0,2.95,0,11.64,0.77
La_Tène:Czechia_I14985,4.29,0,1.4,1.01,40.26,38.95,0,0,0.33,0,12.99,0.78
La_Tène:Czechia_I14986,5.97,0,0.77,0,38.96,34.65,1.11,0,3.93,0.21,13.55,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I14987,6.43,0.9,0,0,37.01,41.05,0.6,0,2.69,0,10.88,0.44
La_Tène:Czechia_I14988,4.53,0.85,0.32,0,35.88,37.63,0.74,0.22,2.82,0.12,16.9,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I15039,5.35,0,1.19,0.39,38.55,40.86,0,0.16,1.07,0,11.66,0.77
La_Tène:Czechia_I15040,6.9,0,0.37,0,33.57,44.72,0,0,2.07,0.22,11.96,0.19
La_Tène:Czechia_I15042,3.47,0.8,0.2,0.13,44.35,31.51,0,0,5.22,0,13.52,0.8
La_Tène:Czechia_I15043,4.29,0.88,2.1,0,44.01,35.76,0,0,0,0,12.67,0.28
La_Tène:Czechia_I15044,7.62,1.53,0.28,0,40.01,41,0,0.71,0.89,0.27,7,0.69
La_Tène:Czechia_I15045,9.49,0,0,0,34.78,46.32,1.89,0,0,0,6.2,1.33
La_Tène:Czechia_I15046,5.2,1.05,1.14,0,43.61,34.94,0,0,1.53,0,12.22,0.31
La_Tène:Czechia_I15047,3.93,0,0,0.22,34.94,37.96,0,0,4.24,0,17.84,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I15048,5.3,0.74,0.77,0,40.79,37.41,0.23,0,3.89,0.23,10.49,0.17
La_Tène:Czechia_I15049,8.92,0,0.15,0.46,37.94,47.13,1.02,0,0,0,2.74,1.63
La_Tène:Czechia_I15950,10.47,1.57,0,0,33.96,46.93,0,0,0,0,5.89,1.18
La_Tène:Czechia_I15951,3.16,0.14,1.48,0.12,38.76,42.27,0,0,2.5,0.08,10.45,1.04
La_Tène:Czechia_I15952,4.95,0,1.78,0.88,39.05,34.78,1.37,0,2.98,0,13.45,0.76
La_Tène:Czechia_I15953,5.79,0.98,0.24,0,39.9,37.06,0,0.94,2.66,0,12.25,0.18
La_Tène:Czechia_I15954,5.18,0.26,0.82,0,43.27,33.25,1.54,0.8,2.62,0,11.64,0.64
La_Tène:Czechia_I16268,8.79,0.24,0,0.06,34.04,51.76,1.42,0.52,0,0.18,2.23,0.76
La_Tène:Czechia_I16269,8.78,0,0.27,0,29.22,44.7,0.11,0,3.07,0.96,12.88,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I16270,12.7,1.80,1.81,0.00,34.56,45.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.37,1.23
La_Tène:Czechia_I16271,5.6,0,1.47,0.06,44.02,34.86,0,0.1,2.48,0,10.74,0.69
La_Tène:Czechia_I16272,8.03,0.69,0.00,0.00,31.58,49.44,0.00,0.62,0.84,0.04,7.67,1.10
La_Tène:Czechia_I16273,10.04,0,0.73,0,34.02,44.93,0,0,0,0,9.82,0.46
La_Tène:Czechia_I17139,2.69,0.04,1.28,0.26,38.8,28.7,0,0,4.4,0.09,22.51,1.23
La_Tène:Czechia_I17143,5.12,0.49,1.48,0.86,43.13,33.7,0,0,2.33,0,12.21,0.67
La_Tène:Czechia_I17145,2.3,0.3,0.43,0,41.29,35.07,0,0,4.78,0.36,14.51,0.95
La_Tène:Czechia_I17146,5.65,0.64,1.76,0.05,45.71,33.25,0,0.56,3.92,0,7.79,0.66
La_Tène:Czechia_I17313,13.7,1.02,0,0,35.61,47.62,0,0,0,0,0.97,1.09
La_Tène:Czechia_I17314,5.85,1.32,0.00,0.00,41.56,36.74,0.00,0.57,3.45,0.00,9.87,0.64
La_Tène:Czechia_I17315,4.93,0,4.08,0,35,41.51,1.24,0.64,1.36,0,11.25,0
La_Tène:Czechia_I17316,13.42,0.65,0,0,25.62,47.4,0,1.28,0,0,10.27,1.36
La_Tène:Czechia_I17317,3.11,0.22,0.00,0.36,32.01,49.73,0.73,0.63,0.00,0.68,10.93,1.60
La_Tène:Czechia_I17320,5.52,0,0.22,0,30.04,48.88,0,0,0,0.01,13.2,2.13
La_Tène:Czechia_I17321,6.61,0,1.37,0.9,41.3,36.61,0,0,2.5,0,10.22,0.47
La_Tène:Czechia_I17322,10.44,0.25,0,0,28.23,54.81,0.06,1.64,0,0,3.84,0.73
La_Tène:Czechia_I17323,4.86,0,1.71,1.51,46.77,31.05,0.65,0,1.76,0,10.83,0.86
La_Tène:Czechia_I17327,9.99,0.00,0.00,1.81,31.56,52.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,1.88
La_Tène:Hungary_I18110,4.68,0,0.3,0,41.31,39.19,0,0,2.15,0,11.6,0.77
La_Tène:Hungary_I18181,0,0,0,1.79,36.62,40.13,0,0,6.28,0,15.18,0
La_Tène:Hungary_I18182,3.74,0.64,0.26,1.37,33.44,44.42,0.5,0,1.76,0,12.92,0.94
La_Tène:Hungary_I18183,4,0,0,0.22,26.55,52.28,1.06,0,1.02,0.46,13.62,0.79
La_Tène:Hungary_I18220,2.2,0.52,0,0,37.2,35.39,0,0,2.78,1.4,19.78,0.74
La_Tène:Hungary_I18226,6.19,1.77,0,0.62,16.76,58.11,0.31,0,1.82,0,13.32,1.09
La_Tène:Hungary_I18489,4.74,0.5,1.97,0.97,37.64,32.44,0,0,3.52,0.67,16.94,0.61

Here are the various settlements in Italy 350 BC. It is around the same time as the map above for Le Tène Culture (400 BC - 50 BC).

Pygmalion · Jan 8, 2022

Malaparte said:
With regard to Berbers as well as Sardinians and Iberians, I wonder how much these groups traded and sailed in the Western Mediterranean *before* their contact with Phoenicia-Carthage. Sardinians, or at least coastal Sardinians, were sea-farers as early as the Bronze Age, but I don't imagine the same of Berbers. Is this a correct assumption? And if they were traders & mariners, could this not lead to significant genetic exchange? I realize that by 500 BC or so, foreign traders were generally confined to merchant quarters in ports, but would this have been true in earlier times?

So maybe Iberomaurusian contacts had little effect on Etruscan or Italian populations at large, but had enduring local effects, whether in Sardinia or various points along the Tyrrhenian coast or the Aeolian islands.

There's that Berber-like sample from a copper age tomb in Sardinia, in the necropolis of Anghelu Ruju. It's hard to say how or why that North African got there, but there was certainly a trade of elephant ivory from Africa to Sardinia during that period as we know from finds from Sardinian copper age tombs.

Anyway, regarding possible Etruscan-Punic interactions mediated by Sardinia, there's the famous "tessera hospitalis" from 6th century bc Rome (Rome was under Etruscan rule back then):

"In addition, at the rear of the podium, an Etruscan inscription was found on the back of a tessera hospitalis (a token of
guest friendship made between aristocratic families of different cities) to “Araz silqetenas spurianas” (Adornato 2003:814; Pallottino 1979:319-325). According to Colonna (1981; 1988:467) this inscription refers to a man named Spurianas (or Spurinas) from Tarquinia and the other perhaps to a man named Araz of Sulcis from Sardinia; this inscription underscores the connections between Etruria and S. Omobono."

LTG · Jan 8, 2022

Target: Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige Distance: 0.9485% / 0.00948526
41.0	ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
18.8	HUN_IA_La_Tene
15.2	VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
11.2	GRC_Mycenaean
10.2	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
3.6	ITA_Sicily_EBA

Target: Italian_Umbria Distance: 1.4882% / 0.01488194
31.2	ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
29.0	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
20.2	GRC_Mycenaean
19.6	VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA

Target: Italian_Calabria Distance: 1.3958% / 0.01395826
37.0	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
33.6	GRC_Mycenaean
14.8	VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
7.8	ITA_Sardinia_Punic
6.8	HUN_IA_La_Tene

Jovialis · Jan 8, 2022

^^weren't you someone on Anthrogenica?

LTG · Jan 8, 2022

Jovialis said:
^^weren't you someone on Anthrogenica?

Yes, but that was a while ago. I was a moderator, but stepped down and asked for my account to be closed.

Jovialis · Jan 8, 2022

LTG said:
Yes, but that was a while ago. I was a moderator, but stepped down and asked for my account to be closed.

Ah, yes, I remember now.

Anyway, in regards to your model, I see you probably subscribe to Posth et al. 2021's proposed model, with the use of Alalakh_LMBA.

Personally, I speculate that Minoan-like populations are plausible in place of a pre-Indo-European proto-Mediterranean basal population. I guess we will need to see what further evidence may show.

Jovialis · Jan 9, 2022

Here's an excerpt I found on Catacomb Culture, and it's association it Italy, Greece, and Central Europe from the Encyclopedia of Indo-Europeans (1997)

It also seems to suggest a common background for Greeks, Armenians, and Indo-Iranians.

blevins13 · Jan 9, 2022

Jovialis said:
Here's an excerpt I found on Catacomb Culture, and it's association it Italy, Greece, and Central Europe from the Encyclopedia of Indo-Europeans (1997)

It also seems to suggest a common background for Greeks, Armenians, and Indo-Iranians.

At that time was suggested that Armenians came from Balkans to justify the Greek connection. Now we known that is not true.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Jovialis · Jan 9, 2022

blevins13 said:
At that time was suggested that Armenians came from Balkans to justify the Greek connection. Now we known that is not true.
Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum

I'm of the persuasion that the proto-Greeks either came from Sintashta or Catacomb, as there are archeological links. Armenians and Indo-Iranians probably share a common ancestry from the same steppe sources with Ancient Greeks.

Jovialis · Jan 9, 2022

Mycenaeans and other Ancient Greek samples using Sintashta, Catacomb, and Minoan:

Here is the same model, with Sintashta, and Catacomb labeled as Steppe. Looks consistent with the modeling of Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Clemente et al. 2021:

blevins13 · Jan 10, 2022

La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

Jovialis said:
I'm of the persuasion that the proto-Greeks either came from Sintashta or Catacomb, as there are archeological links. Armenians and Indo-Iranians probably share a common ancestry from the same steppe sources with Ancient Greeks.

The connection with Sintashta-Petrovka is well known and largely supported by Drews. I have discussed this in the past. The difference with you is that he suggests a Caucasian route. Since the Armenian connection, that was used in the past to support Carpathian route does no longer stands, than the opposite seem true.

Jovialis · Jan 13, 2022

Here's a graphic of the first results from the OP:

Jovialis · Jan 13, 2022

Here is one I made with all the Dodecad K12b populations against the modeling. All of them get a good fit under 3, *however the chart is inverted for goodness of fit:

bigsnake49 · Jan 13, 2022

Jovialis said:
Mycenaeans and other Ancient Greek samples using Sintashta, Catacomb, and Minoan:

Here is the same model, with Sintashta, and Catacomb labeled as Steppe. Looks consistent with the modeling of Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Clemente et al. 2021:

Less Steppe than I expected in the Mycenean and more in the Logkas samples.

Jovialis · Jan 13, 2022

Here are the Italian Iron Age samples alongside the modern European populations:

Jovialis · Jan 13, 2022

It is interesting to see, the IA Italians prefer Minoan, and Italian_ChL, which is distinctly Italian, in this model. With some notable affinity to Hallstatt and Hungary (BR2).

R437 looks like he could be a modern Southern Italian.

I didn't include R850 because the distance was 8, but all of the other samples had good fits.

The Etruscan outlier looks sort of Iberian with a large amount of Iberomaurusian and a small amount of minoan.

La Tène Culture to Model Ancient & Modern Italians

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