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Thread: E-V13 clades spreading with the Vekerzug Scythians

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    E-V13 clades spreading with the Vekerzug Scythians

    In La Tene paper one V13 sample, I14465, is of the Vekerzug culture. By the traits of this burial, all indications are he is by far the most Scythian of any Vekerzug samples.

    His, and origin of few other (mostly female) samples judging by closest analogies of that material is most likely the NW Romania, the Sanislău has close parallels, including some indications of certain urns (probably hinting at Eastern Gava origins).

    In this area occurred the formation of a Scythian culture per some associated with the Agathyrsi or more precisely the Ciumbrud group related to the Vekerzug. Vekerzug samples are not really typical Steppe Scythian, so it seems that profile wasn't that present among them. We know from earlier studies only minority of Scythians had a typical Steppe profile. Yet it does count culturally as Scythian.

    And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

    This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

    It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.

    Vekerzug had mixed elements but that V13 sample was most Scythian of any of those samples. He and two other female samples show alot more South-Eastern autosomal profile, especially the females. It seems there really were some EEF (+Anatolian) heavy people in Carpathians as indicated by the low steppe J2a EBA and LBA finds in NE Hungary in the Pannonian study.

    As around the Balkans appeared some Scythian influence, for example in Atenica close parallels to the very Vekerzug site of Chotin. Even in Illyrian Drilon-Romaja culture appeared this influence in Romaja. I used to think these were usual R-Z93's that have died out, but now I wonder whether some V13 Balkan clades stem from these people.

    I actually long ago mentioned maybe Albanian clade of Z17107>BY4465 as maybe being related to Atenica. Z17107 is an early Iron Age clade and it is very diverse in Carpathians.

    Also another Z17107 clade, E-A19247, has one Albanian with NE Hungarian cluster, sharing one SNP, TMRCA estimated 2400 ybp, but just sharing 1 SNP.

    Z17107 has a clade E-Y196687 made up of an Englishman and Russian from Rostov.

    And ofc my own subclade of Z17107>A24070 is very strong in Transylvania. Other than East Hungarian, there are actually Transylvanian Romanians closely related to both me and the Bosnian clade. Plus we have a N.Hungarian/W.Ukrainian Z17107 EIA clade.

    Ofc plenty of other clades as candidates, but Vekerzug find makes me believe some V13 arrived to the Balkans this way.

    This V13 Vekerzug sample is just V13 for now, I don't think anyone found anything below.

    Other Vekerzug samples do not really show strong Scythian connection, for example the R-L2 samples or the R-PF7592. Most likely some locals.

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    I checked his autosomal and based on one model he really looks like Thracian/Scythian admixed.

    Target: E-V13:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I14465
    Distance: 3.4356% / 0.03435601
    40.6 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    22.8 West_Asian
    19.0 Baltic
    17.6 Bell_Beaker

    But a lot of E-V13 samples are plotting all over the place, likewise this sample in La Tene:

    Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
    Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
    70.0 Aegean_Neolithic
    19.6 Yamnaya
    8.6 Baltic
    1.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

    To me, it looks like he is a Southern Balkanite migrant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I checked his autosomal and based on one model he really looks like Thracian/Scythian admixed.


    To me, it looks like he is a Southern Balkanite migrant.
    Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

    This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

    This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

    This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

    This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.
    You missunderstood me i think, i totally agree that E-V13 initial spread was somewhere around Carpathian Basin during Middle Bronze Age.

    But that E-V13 outlier from La Tene is not Thracian or Illyrian, if he was native Pannonian or coming from Transylvania he would have scored Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East_European_Neolithic but he scores Aegean, we are talking about Late Iron Age. So, i think he was some sort of Greek, Southern Thracian, Macedonian or related, IDK.

    As a reference, check this model i made: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post638197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    You missunderstood me i think, i totally agree that E-V13 initial spread was somewhere around Carpathian Basin during Middle Bronze Age.

    But that E-V13 outlier from La Tene is not Thracian or Illyrian, if he was native Pannonian or coming from Transylvania he would have scored Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East_European_Neolithic but he scores Aegean, we are talking about Late Iron Age. So, i think he was some sort of Greek, Southern Thracian, Macedonian or related, IDK.

    As a reference, check this model i made: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post638197
    Yes but there was actually likely Aegian autosomal profile in Carpathians? Why? Because of Glina-Schneckenberg which was likely J2a and expanded to modern day Romania from the South - Bulgaria, and even more to the Southeast before. So seeing these high Aegian scores in some of these samples does not mean they actually were people from that far South in any recent times.

    As I ve said, judging by some of these very low Steppe J2a EBA/MBA and LBA samples from East Hungary including one J2a Urnfield sample with very low Steppe, this sort of profile looks to have been very widespread in the region since the EBA/MBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes but there was actually likely Aegian autosomal profile in Carpathians? Why? Because of Glina-Schneckenberg which was likely J2a and expanded to modern day Romania from the South - Bulgaria, and even more to the Southeast before. So seeing these high Aegian scores in some of these samples does not mean they actually were people from that far South in any recent times.

    As I ve said, judging by some of these very low Steppe J2a EBA/MBA and LBA samples from East Hungary including one J2a Urnfield sample with very low Steppe, this sort of profile looks to have been very widespread in the region since the EBA/MBA.
    Well i doubt it, he looks like an outlier and wouldn't expect so much of Aegean autosomal up there and isolated for so long. And J2a was probably just a lone wolf, wouldn't expect to have any significant presence around there.

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    Romanian language developed in the Southern Balkans even today you can find Romanian toponyms there such as 'Surdul' near Kosovo

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul

    'Surdul' appearently in Romanian means 'Deaf' similar to Albanian 'Shurdhu' . Anyway, it is a Romanian name / toponym. Other toponyms can also be observed across the
    Western/Central Balkans of Vlachs / Eastern Latin speakers.

    You also have names with 'Katun' which means village in the Albanian language and in Aromanian, in Romanian 'Catun' , also 'Sat' is used 'Fshat' in Albanian.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katun_(commune)

    Katun (Vranje), a village in Vranje Municipality, Serbia
    Katun (Aleksinac), a village in Aleksinac Municipality, Serbia
    Gornji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
    Donji Katun, a village in Varvarin Municipality, Serbia
    Katun, Pljevlja, a village in Pljevlja Municipality, Montenegro
    Katun, Poreč [hr], a village in Poreč Municipality, Croatia
    Katun Božički, a summer hamlet in the Komovi Mountains, Andrijevica, Montenegro
    Katun nahiya [sh], a small province (nahiya) during the Ottoman rule in Montenegro


    This form of association of people is a consequence of the absence of strong central government, and is observed in documents from the second half of the 14th and 15th centuries. It is often associated with a living style of "Vlachs" (that is, Eastern Romance people) in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro and Serbia,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morina View Post
    So why would all the EV-13 of been absorbed by Romanians from their arrival in their Southern Balkan homelands ? It seems to me more plausible that some of these EV-13 have also a West/Central Balkan origin.
    Indeed, lots of Romanian V13 is of Balkan origin. But my clade is something different, Romanians have distant relatives in Hungarians and in the Balkan our clade does not occur on places associated with Vlachs, rather my own subbranch on Turkic-related places..

    Actually Romanians of my branch have highest TMRCA of Romanian V13 branches thus far, plus they are from the same region. Most other Romanian branches have low TMRCA.

    So not just for some, but many Romanian V13 is of southern origin, nobody knows that better than me. I would say so far half of V13 and most of their J2b. But of course there are local V13 branches just as there are various other local branches. But there is over 30 Romanian clusters that I know of, of different haplogroups that seems of recent Balkan origin.

    It also proof Vlachs had low I2a when they migrated to the North, say 12th century. Because only for minority of Romanian Slavic lineages is Balkan origin likely.

    For determining local V13 clades in Romanians more important are links with some other peoples like Hungarians, West Ukrainians etc than anything else.

    But anyway not the topic for that, but I do know of actually 30 Romanian V13 clades, much of that I know thanks to other peoples they match, because Romanians dont test much for Y-DNA.

    Actually there appeared some Romanian NGS Nebula results in recent times, and several of them have been pulled off because they didn't pay the YFull fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    In La Tene paper one V13 sample, I14465, is of the Vekerzug culture. By the traits of this burial, all indications are he is by far the most Scythian of any Vekerzug samples.

    His, and origin of few other (mostly female) samples judging by closest analogies of that material is most likely the NW Romania, the Sanislău has close parallels, including some indications of certain urns (probably hinting at Eastern Gava origins).

    In this area occurred the formation of a Scythian culture per some associated with the Agathyrsi or more precisely the Ciumbrud group related to the Vekerzug. Vekerzug samples are not really typical Steppe Scythian, so it seems that profile wasn't that present among them. We know from earlier studies only minority of Scythians had a typical Steppe profile. Yet it does count culturally as Scythian.

    And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

    This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

    It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.

    Vekerzug had mixed elements but that V13 sample was most Scythian of any of those samples. He and two other female samples show alot more South-Eastern autosomal profile, especially the females. It seems there really were some EEF (+Anatolian) heavy people in Carpathians as indicated by the low steppe J2a EBA and LBA finds in NE Hungary in the Pannonian study.

    As around the Balkans appeared some Scythian influence, for example in Atenica close parallels to the very Vekerzug site of Chotin. Even in Illyrian Drilon-Romaja culture appeared this influence in Romaja. I used to think these were usual R-Z93's that have died out, but now I wonder whether some V13 Balkan clades stem from these people.

    I actually long ago mentioned maybe Albanian clade of Z17107>BY4465 as maybe being related to Atenica. Z17107 is an early Iron Age clade and it is very diverse in Carpathians.

    Also another Z17107 clade, E-A19247, has one Albanian with NE Hungarian cluster, sharing one SNP, TMRCA estimated 2400 ybp, but just sharing 1 SNP.

    Z17107 has a clade E-Y196687 made up of an Englishman and Russian from Rostov.

    And ofc my own subclade of Z17107>A24070 is very strong in Transylvania. Other than East Hungarian, there are actually Transylvanian Romanians closely related to both me and the Bosnian clade. Plus we have a N.Hungarian/W.Ukrainian Z17107 EIA clade.

    Ofc plenty of other clades as candidates, but Vekerzug find makes me believe some V13 arrived to the Balkans this way.

    This V13 Vekerzug sample is just V13 for now, I don't think anyone found anything below.

    Other Vekerzug samples do not really show strong Scythian connection, for example the R-L2 samples or the R-PF7592. Most likely some locals.
    The site it was found is interesting too, because it was the sphere of influence from Channelled Ware people in the previous periods, so there is actualy more than one scenario how Gva/Thracian related E-V13 could have been there among locals and later Scythianised people. But going by the autosomals, both the Thraco-Cimmerians and "Scythians" being overwhelmingly derived from local Carpatho-Pannonian people, that's a given and was already suggested by the archaeological material, like the pottery styles and some local adaptations to the Scythian gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Very unlikely for these people. Its just Southern Balkan-like autosomal profile also existed in Carparthians. The Pannonian study has 4000 and 3000 year old J2a with very low Steppe in NE Hungary. Possibly Ottomany culture (older find). And this is likely related with the expansion of Glina-Schneckenberg culture, this culture was actually of Anatolian origin and its cousin culture from Bulgaria (which was tested in Southern Arch) also showed J2a, notwithstanding local EEF remnants.

    This I believe caused the Southern Thracian IA profile, mixing with these people.

    This Verkezug culture caused lot of destruction and turmoil in Central Europe. Areas up to Slovakia and Czech republic. In this area there are also some V13 clades which are likely locals there for some time, I think Verkezug expansion did carry various V13 to the West, may have been more responsible for V13 dispersion than some earlier "Thraco-Cimmerian" phenomenon.
    Don't forget BR2, the Kyjatice J2a with a more Central European profile. Its a good option it spread with Otomani into Pannonia, being later pushed Eastward, towards the Upper Tisza, and being part of the Western group of the Channelled Ware source, Kyjatice. Otomani itself, 2-3 stages before, was already a more complex fusion.

    By the way, is the Pannonian study out, did I miss something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The site it was found is interesting too, because it was the sphere of influence from Channelled Ware people in the previous periods, so there is actualy more than one scenario how G�va/Thracian related E-V13 could have been there among locals and later Scythianised people. But going by the autosomals, both the Thraco-Cimmerians and "Scythians" being overwhelmingly derived from local Carpatho-Pannonian people, that's a given and was already suggested by the archaeological material, like the pottery styles and some local adaptations to the Scythian gear.
    In this instance it seems actually it may well be that most or the bulk of Westwards V13 expansion was due to the Scythians as I will elaborate. I wouldn't really use the term "Scythians", in the same manner one shouldn't call Late Antiquity Alans "Alans". There was definitely a strong Scythian polity in Carpatho-Pannonian area that dominated prior to the Celtic arrival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Don't forget BR2, the Kyjatice J2a with a more Central European profile. Its a good option it spread with Otomani into Pannonia, being later pushed Eastward, towards the Upper Tisza, and being part of the Western group of the Channelled Ware source, Kyjatice. Otomani itself, 2-3 stages before, was already a more complex fusion.

    By the way, is the Pannonian study out, did I miss something?
    Nope it is not out still.

    Kyjatice J2a has a typical Urnfelder profile, that is typical of most Urnfelders, with higher WHG. This profile is it seems totally foreign for V13 though.

    This is one reason why E-V13 has absolutely nothing to do with the Urnfelders that made incursion into the Illyrian lands. These already are proven to be dominantly R1b. And that any more Western V13 seems either EIA Thraco-Cimmerian or MIA Western Scythian related.

    he belongs to the J-Y17946 branch
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y11200/

    There is a new Romanian sample upstream that seems to be an ethnic Romanian. Romanian sample downstream YF08205 is I believe ethnic German from Romania. But with Albanian sample there it seems apparent this J2a clade has a long presence in the area. And it looks like a good fit for Glina III expansion.

    Even in the Chanelled Ware spectrum, I don't think Western part has any meaningful V13 connection. For the Eastern part the opposite..

    So for that reason I am skeptical towards some strong Westward LBA V13 movement, maybe some. These IA movements on the other hand were strong and they now have proven V13 involvement. They also came later, later migrations have more chances of leaving lasting imprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So for that reason I am skeptical towards some strong Westward LBA V13 movement, maybe some. These IA movements on the other hand were strong and they now have proven V13 involvement. They also came later, later migrations have more chances of leaving lasting imprint.
    If E-V13 expanded from the Upper Tisza area with Gva, which would the observable phylogeny the best, it most certainly reached more Western areas already in the LBA, with Urnfield movements. The Urnfield connection is obvious, but the core provinces of Gva were largely unaffected by more significant Urnfield movements from the West. They pushed from East of the Tisza, from the Great Hungarian plain West and influenced, at least with small groups and individuals, far beyond that.
    Of course, there is the possibility that most of the E-V13 spread started more South and/or East, but then the modern distribution and phylogeny is more difficult to explain. It should start later, being more Southern concentrated, what it doesn't to be. But its possible of course.

    The interplay of more Western/North Western Tumulus culture and Urnfield groups with Kyjatice-Gva was very complex and doesn't look straight. I think its possible that there was quite some variation within the more Western provinces and outliers all around. But the bulk of Gva is not from it but from Pannonian EBA-MBA groups with a high proportion of Neolithic plus Epi-Corded influence, rather minor BB-related Western ancestry.

    Its such a pity we probably never will get proper Frg elite and warrior samples, because I would bet they got E-V13 too, because that area being influenced multiple times from the Channelled Ware related groups: Kyjatice-Gva influence, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-early Hallstatt contacts. The archaeological context is pretty clear.

    @Aspurg: What do you think about the pockets of E-V13 in Northern Italy, like Liguria, some areas of Lombardy and Switzerland, like the very West and very East (St. Gallen) interestingly. I still think this could be related to LBA to Hallstatt movements into the Alpine zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If E-V13 expanded from the Upper Tisza area with G�va, which would the observable phylogeny the best, it most certainly reached more Western areas already in the LBA, with Urnfield movements. The Urnfield connection is obvious, but the core provinces of G�va were largely unaffected by more significant Urnfield movements from the West. They pushed from East of the Tisza, from the Great Hungarian plain West and influenced, at least with small groups and individuals, far beyond that.
    Of course, there is the possibility that most of the E-V13 spread started more South and/or East, but then the modern distribution and phylogeny is more difficult to explain. It should start later, being more Southern concentrated, what it doesn't to be. But its possible of course.

    The interplay of more Western/North Western Tumulus culture and Urnfield groups with Kyjatice-G�va was very complex and doesn't look straight. I think its possible that there was quite some variation within the more Western provinces and outliers all around. But the bulk of G�va is not from it but from Pannonian EBA-MBA groups with a high proportion of Neolithic plus Epi-Corded influence, rather minor BB-related Western ancestry.

    Its such a pity we probably never will get proper Fr�g elite and warrior samples, because I would bet they got E-V13 too, because that area being influenced multiple times from the Channelled Ware related groups: Kyjatice-G�va influence, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-early Hallstatt contacts. The archaeological context is pretty clear.

    @Aspurg: What do you think about the pockets of E-V13 in Northern Italy, like Liguria, some areas of Lombardy and Switzerland, like the very West and very East (St. Gallen) interestingly. I still think this could be related to LBA to Hallstatt movements into the Alpine zone.
    In Liguria FGC11450 has some elevated presence, and there might be some diversity too. If there is any connection there should be some more structure there, not isolated branches. Like for E-Y186952 I predicted non-Balkan origin due to high structure of its more East German members. So it seems Carpathain origin for this clade.

    E-FGC67001 above also has E-BY4835 with high structure.

    Guy with the Turkish flag is also (by origin) a Pole from Carpathian Poland and he is related to another W.Ukrainian. He put the Turkish flag because his surname is identical to the name of a Biblical patriarch and with the same name.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    I think Romania is really a problem again. Not only Romanians don't test for Y-DNA alot but there isn't a single aDNA from Romanian Iron Age and Bronze Age...

    MJ12 is from Ukraine next to Romanian border, Moldovan Scythians are from Transnistria, not Moldova proper, Pannonian study Gavans are from NE Hungary..

    Hopefully someone will test Goligrad group from Ukraine at some point in the future.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Some Thracian tomb paintings from Aleksandrovo, Southern Thracians. Thracian horseriders.










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    I am wondering regarding some E-V13 Middle Eastern clades, whether they were there when Babylonians allied with Scythians and Cimmerians against Assyrian Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...neveh_(612_BC)

    Could be that some warriors settled down afterwards.

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    So...

    More news.

    1. That I18832 sample is a foreigner indeed among other La Tene samples from that site. BUT he can be well modelled with a combination of a Southern (G2a) East Pannonian Scythian DA198 and Babadag Thraco-Cimmerian MJ12.

    And his MtDNA is U5a1b, ultra Steppe mtdna, Iranian mtdna, and also mtdna of one Scythian sample from Ukraine. Most samples there do not carry Scythian mtDNA. Only another sample has Steppe U2e1a1, bu that hg is not as Scythian.

    So his auDNA profile says he comes from the East, his MtDNA is Steppe Scythian. I would say this sample does descend from those East Pannonian Scythians. Maybe he joined them after Celts established their dominance, or even maybe he was captured initially or something like that. He is foreign.

    2. I18527 La Tene sample has a usual profile for that site, except he has around 10 % of Steppe Scythian admixture. Most have 0, one has around 5 %.

    And very interestingly, although that LIA site was La Tene, just 1 km away there is an earlier Vekerzug site. He could be descendant of them, and I think he is due to V13 Vekerzug and this small Steppe admixture.

    About Vekerzug, V13 sample is mostly mix of local Urnfield and this eastern profile. But there are other samples with real Steppe Scythian admixture. Most are female. One R-L2 has such influence. Other L2 and other R-L51 do not have any though, and Steppe W mtdna of this L2 might be the source of this.

    Regarding V13 sample it has strong Scythian influence in the inventory, as do two female samples of very Southern-Eastern profiles so IMO this is clearly indicative this more DA198 and Mj12 related profile did arrive there with the Scythians.

    These Scythians in broader terms are the historical Agathyrsi. Who used to be the political factor in the time of Herodotus when Dacians didn't even have their own political entity (they were under the Agathyrsi). Their focal point is Transylvania. I suppose as this Scythian wave began in Eastern Ukraine, in their stage prior to crossing the Carpathians, they did encounter the Goligrady remnants (and per some ended their culture), so they probably picked up there some V13 clades.

    Only this Czech V13 sample, I cannot find anything unusual about it. But for 3 out of 4 V13 La Tene paper samples, Western Scythian connection seems quite clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And actually in Transylvania these people represented the dominant political factor until the arrival of the Celts, only later did the Dacians establish their domination of the region by toppling the Celts, and including in their ranks the old Agathyrsi.

    This is why archeologically Dacians were different as opposed to Getae, groups from modern day Wallachia and Moldavia. These too had some Scythian influences of different kind.

    It seems plenty or most of those Scythians were of proto-Daco-Thracian origin anyway.
    This interestingly aligns well with the hypothesis that the Cimmerians were not (at least not initially) Iranic speakers, but speakers of something Daco-Thracian or closely related to it, ultimately descending from a language of the Catacomb culture, but perhaps ruled by an originally foreign Iranic-speaking elite (a first signal of Scythian expansion before other Scythians drove them away altogether, forcing them to move to Caucasia, Anatolia and the Balkans, while absorbing those who stayed?).

    The western Scythians seem to have been considerably different from the eastern Scythians right from the start, even before the East Asian-shifting population movements from the later half of 1st millennium B.C. onwards (especially from the times of the Xiongnu Empire), a fact that could indicate that much of the local Scythians, in the western steppes and adjacent areas in Romania, Hungary etc., were assimilated Daco-Thracians from the steppe and also different ones from the forested areas.

    Such an origin for Daco-Thracian could help explain the noted similarities with Balto-Slavic, that is, it's pretty plausible if Daco-Thracian was originally spoken in the Ukrainian steppe and forest-steppe just south of where Balto-Slavic was evolving in northern Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and westernmost Russia.

    Just some loud ramblings and speculations of mine... LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This interestingly aligns well with the hypothesis that the Cimmerians were not (at least not initially) Iranic speakers, but speakers of something Daco-Thracian or closely related to it, ultimately descending from a language of the Catacomb culture, but perhaps ruled by an originally foreign Iranic-speaking elite (a first signal of Scythian expansion before other Scythians drove them away altogether, forcing them to move to Caucasia, Anatolia and the Balkans, while absorbing those who stayed?).

    The western Scythians seem to have been considerably different from the eastern Scythians right from the start, even before the East Asian-shifting population movements from the later half of 1st millennium B.C. onwards (especially from the times of the Xiongnu Empire), a fact that could indicate that much of the local Scythians, in the western steppes and adjacent areas in Romania, Hungary etc., were assimilated Daco-Thracians from the steppe and also different ones from the forested areas.

    Such an origin for Daco-Thracian could help explain the noted similarities with Balto-Slavic, that is, it's pretty plausible if Daco-Thracian was originally spoken in the Ukrainian steppe and forest-steppe just south of where Balto-Slavic was evolving in northern Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and westernmost Russia.

    Just some loud ramblings and speculations of mine... LOL
    There was a steppe culture involved in the formation of Gva, but rather as a fringe phenomenon and in the end the Channelled Ware people rather pushed it back. But the debate was and still is ongoing. Its the Noua culture which was part of the great west and southward movements of steppe people, some related to the chariot complex, which might have contributed to the collapse of Unetice and helped the spread of Proto-Greek.
    In Transylvania they pushed Wietenberg back and controlled large areas. But Gva while complex in origin and absorbing some of these pastoralist steppe elements, seems to rather have pushed them back. But then again, there are numerous Northern, Western, Southern and Eastern influences, all working on the Tisza basin population which seems to be crucial, which could all contributed the lineage. But going by the E-V13 phylogeny, its also about the latest time for the start of the massive expansion, because it started slower in the Middle branch age, with the basic branches being formed, then these branches experienced in the LBA-EIA massive founder effects. Kind of preparing the stage for their greatest moment. So they had to be in an at least stable growing, relatively successful population from the Middle Bronze Age on.
    This just fits the best with some pre-Gva context everything considered.

    As for Liguria, I'm very tempted to attribute most of the variation we could observe in Sardinians from Cagliari to Northern Italians, especially Genuese. I also see that in the STR results of some, but I'm no expert on interpreting these and they are not always reliable anyway for lesser known subclades. If the Cagliari samples represent largely the Ligurian/North Italian rather than Southern influence, which I know is debatable, but possible, also because of accompanying other more Northern lineages, this would speak for a Northern land route and a fairly high diversity from the LBA. It would also allign well with the Italian study which noted Northern clusters and a good age in Italy. Their estimate fit the best with a LBA-EIA expansion, but that's not safe of course, just a good model they proposed. But that they came to a LBA date is quite a coincidence if its not true.

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    Also for example, the Romanian language belongs to the Balkan sprachbund together with other Southern Balkan languages such as Albanian, Greek, Aromanian, Bulgarian, Macedonia, Torlakian and some Serbian.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund


    This contact happened because these people lived in the same or overlapping areas in the Southern Balkans and not modern Romania or the Danube. Various empires ruled these lands such as the Byzantine, Bulgarian Empire, Serbian Empire, Albanian principalities and Vlach and Albanian settlements were also recorded historically in the West/Central Balkans and Southern Balkans.

    Romanian also shares a common origin with other Vlachs such as Aromanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, Morovlach etc , Vlach populations that were recorded in the Western Balkans that spoke a variant of Romanian/Aromanian. Romanians themselves were recorded in the Western/Central/South Balkans.


    All the Vlachs recorded historically in the Western Balkans were Aromanian/Romanian speakers. One can see this just by studying placenames and names.


    The Vlachs in Kosovo had Romanian names for example.


    Also for example, most of Romania and the danube was almost never under Roman occupation, only some small parts of Romania were under Roman occupation and they were only for under 190 years or so.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Scythian Borat Sagdiyev on a horseback.



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    The point still stands, it looks to me that E-V13 intruded into Carpathian mountain during MBA from somewhere else. I still stand to my original opinion that it came from further west than Carpathians.

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    Hi Aspurg!

    May I ask where did you find that I14465 Vekerzug sample from Hetény belongs to Y196687?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I revisited the MKD samples since they are all over the place and to see if there needs to be some consideration in understanding them. It does look like the southeast MKD group has more Thracian ancestery than realized, much of it being in the form of early Thracian, before the south Thracians got shifted to Aegean like profile.








    The MKD samples can be divided as follows.

    1) I8112 and I10383 are west Dardanian like, they have Skopje I10379 ancestry with Illyrian, one even has partial Celtic ancestry.
    2) MKD I10390, I10391 and Skopje I10381 have a strong north Thracian ancestry (Vekerzug Balkan and Mezocsat), the other secondary components are local (MKD Ohrid and MKD Dardanian). I10390 and I10391 are my MKD Southeastern average and it looks like they are merely unaltered Thracian(no Aegean mixture) with some local MKD mixture.
    3) MKD I10379 is the most complete Dardanian R1b-Z2103 profile to date. She shows a little Thracian mixture, but maybe it could be that the south Thracians themselves might carry a portion of this I10379 ancestry.
    4) Alb Mdv I13834 and MKD I10384 are very much the same, even their tag number are similar as fate would have it. Both belong to the MKD Ohrid group, but with Illyrian BA mixture. Alb I13834 is clearly miss-dated.
    5) The rest of MKD Ohrid are their own unique local.


    It looks like some unaltered Thracian profile survived in eastern Macedonia.
    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 05-11-22 at 22:20.

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    I do think that the Central Balkan Thracian groups won't be as much Aegean as the Southern ones, but probably in between - with the Dacians having also some Aegean, but how much is completely unknown.

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    I've come to the conclusion the Vekerzug and the two MKD southeast individuals are highly mixed and don't represent a particular tribe/people. The Vekerzug are a prelude of the Hun-Avar-Maygar samples from Hungary, of the highly mixed individuals that were clearly abducted by the steppe nomadic tribes from different unrelated regions and planted in the Hungarian plain. These individual samples are only valuable for modeling if their profile is unmixed, which does not appear to be the case, we can't determine what they represent.

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    Continuity

    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    I've come to the conclusion the Vekerzug and the two MKD southeast individuals are highly mixed and don't represent a particular tribe/people. The Vekerzug are a prelude of the Hun-Avar-Maygar samples from Hungary, of the highly mixed individuals that were clearly abducted by the steppe nomadic tribes from different unrelated regions and planted in the Hungarian plain. These individual samples are only valuable for modeling if their profile is unmixed, which does not appear to be the case, we can't determine what they represent.
    Vekerzug is not even a unified culture, but more of a horizon. The more Thracian locals being concentrated in the Eastern cremating group. The type site is Sanislau in todays Romania:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanisl%C4%83u

    That's the same core zone which was home for Cotofeni, Mak-Livezile-Soimus, Nyrsg-Sanislau, Gyulavarsnd-Eastern Otomani, Suciu de Sus, Lăpuș, Gva, Eastern Vekerzug (Sanislau)-Kustanovice, Early Dacians. Note that most of the type sites being in Western Romania, not within the borders of (modern) Hungary.

    I still think that Eastern Vekerzug (Sanislau group) were part of the West-migrating Thraco-Scythians, and that's what we see. Also interesting that the type site of Sanislau was very important throughout the ages, like EBA Nyrsg-Sanislau and EIA Vekerzug-Sanislau, same type site, same place!

    Nyrsg-Sanislău:
    http://www.donau-archaeologie.de/dok...nglish_version

    The centre for this local element was always the Upper Tisza-Transtisza/East Carpathian zone.

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