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Thread: Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    People who imagine Mesolithic hunter-gatherers looking like modern populations should take a good look at this new PCA from the Allentoft et al pre-print:



    Bedouins are closer on the PCA to central Europeans than either EHGs or WHGs are to any modern European. And the internal diversity of Eurasian hunter-gatherers is massive compared to modern West Eurasians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The Western WHG-s probably had additional autosomal from the earlier Paleolithic people belonging to Y-DNA C1, sort of Australoid-like, their facial features were nothing like SSA, but they could have dark brown color.
    Haplogroup C has been Eurasian for quite a while, it would not look like Australoids, who without a doubt have mixture from a pre-C population that once lived there. Reconstructing pre-historic Europeans as blacks is politically motivated. On the mainstream narrative we don't even exists, so the same narrative is being applied to historical interpretations.

    Individuals associated with haplogroup I tend to have darker hair and sometimes skin tone. They give a good clue how Mesolithic Europeans would have looked like. And they don't look African or Indian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Haplogroup C has been Eurasian for quite a while, it would not look like Australoids, who without a doubt have mixture from a pre-C population that once lived there. Reconstructing pre-historic Europeans as blacks is politically motivated. On the mainstream narrative we don't even exists, so the same narrative is being applied to historical interpretations.

    Individuals associated with haplogroup I tend to have darker hair and sometimes skin tone. They give a good clue how Mesolithic Europeans would have looked like. And they don't look African or Indian.
    What do you mean by black? Sub-Saharan like? Because the Cheddar Man reconstruction looks nothing like Sub-Saharans.

    Those various WHG dark reconstruction give me more Australoid-like vibes, South Indian-like vibe rather than SSA. Especially the dark skin and blue eyes, a combination which you can find sometimes among Gypsies.

    And not all WHG-s looked like that, only the Western European ones which i suspect got it by absorbing an earlier population, which is represented by Y-DNA C1a2 and is the oldest native European haplogroup.

    Look at this, WHG girl from Scandinavia reconstructed. If someone told me guess her origin, i would say somewhere in South India. But then again she looks a bit different facially, there is something which makes her appearance more unique.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What do you mean by black? Sub-Saharan like? Because the Cheddar Man reconstruction looks nothing like Sub-Saharans.

    Those various WHG dark reconstruction give me more Australoid-like vibes, South Indian-like vibe rather than SSA. Especially the dark skin and blue eyes, a combination which you can find sometimes among Gypsies.

    And not all WHG-s looked like that, only the Western European ones which i suspect got it by absorbing an earlier population, which is represented by Y-DNA C1a2 and is the oldest native European haplogroup.

    Look at this, WHG girl from Scandinavia reconstructed. If someone told me guess her origin, i would say somewhere in South India. But then again she looks a bit different facially, there is something which makes her appearance more unique.



    I am saying you should be taking such reconstructions with a grain and salt. It is obvious malpractice/forgery. It is the equivalent of Belgrade science faculty claiming Albanians have tails. Same intentions.

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    My thread was finally proven today. Note how close Macedonia/Greek_Macedonia is to Illyrian. Pretty much identical.



    I said those samples of southern Illyrians and Macedonians/Epirotes would fall in that red box. That's exactly where they fell.


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    This is why it was important to make a distinction between northern and southern Illyrians. It was also important to note that ancient Macedonians/southern Illyrians essentially were identical genetically. Alexander the Great's mother and paternal grandmother came from the territory of Albania And btw, I drew a box instead of individual points, because no one could predict exactly where they fell with 100% precision. Modern Albanians have Roman Imperial admixture as well.

    EDIT: I already see Michalis crying in Anthrogenica because ancient Albanians plot identical to Macedonians. That must hurt right in the Greek nationalism The leaked Greek study already showed that ancient Macedonians don't plot with Bulgarian IA, but he keeps propping up fake theories to sleep at night.

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    These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

    An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
    However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

    This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

    An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
    However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

    This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.
    Please stop this garbage of constantly changing the definitions of things to fit your narrative. Kukes and Kolonje were both Illyrian and/or Macedonian territory. Kolonje first of all was in the crossroads of Illyria/Upper Macedonia and it's where Alexander the fought King Cleitus and Glaukias in the Siege of Pelium.

    The Royal Illyrian tombs of Selce e Poshtme are in that region

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selc%C3%AB_e_Poshtme

    Kukes is clearly in Illyrian territory.

    "Illyrian tombs were found at Këneta and Kolsh nearby Kukës.[5]"




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    Here is Kolonje in antiquity


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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

    An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
    However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

    This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.
    What we define archaeologically Illyrian which encompasses Glasinac-Mat and became synonymous with that nowadays and what was initially Illyrian might differ, the first attested Illyrian kingdom was that of Enchelei, the Enchelei used cremation on a pyre, and their burial rite might be Eastern Urnfield derived. The Illyrians on general were mostly affected by Glasinac-Mat Culture and secondarily the Trebeniste Culture whom Enchelei were representatives, the Enchelei are noted by Hammond to have had connections with Dardanii and Taulantii via the tribe called Peresadyes, this was used as personal name among Odrysians, and one attested Spartokid king in Black Sea Kingdom as well.

    I don't know how Y-DNA picture looked like, would be interesting to know if E-V13 appears in Early Iron Age. That would be clear. The Trebeniste Culture remains might be tested since during Classical times they started burying their deads in necropolises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Here is Kolonje in antiquity
    See, Antiquity, different time frame in the 3rd-2nd century BC. By that time, not just Channelled Ware was gone, but their successor-daughter groups too. They all had transformed into new subgroups, some even disappeared, others being assimilated and soaked up. 2nd century BC is a completely different world in comparison to the EIA.

    There are just kind of original Illyrians, of which we don't know how far to the East they were, this will be interesting and possibly testable, also with the help of this samples. Like the hallmark for Illyrians is J-L283 and increased Bell Beaker-like ancestry for the Balkans. The question is how far it reached when.

    Channelled Ware came in later, in the transitional period and Early Iron Age. And they met along that contact zone. I said that before and I posted maps showing it, before this paper. Some ridiculed it, but fact is, there was a contact zone of these two major formations in the Balkans.

    By the later historical and later periods of Antiquity, the Southern Illyrians had completely fused with those local people and Channelled Ware. That's why you see the unchanged Illyrians still scoring a lot of J-L283 and Bell Beaker like ancestry, while those in the East being a mixed and fused group, whether they spoke Illyrian or not.

    It's like it is with later South Slavs. Slavs they are nevertheless, but shifted in the direction of locals and later influences. Same here. You have actual Proto-Illyrians (J-L283 dominated and more Bell Beaker shifted), and then you have later Illyrians of which some still have this profile, while others mixed with Channelled Ware, Central-Eastern and Southern Balkan people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This is why it was important to make a distinction between northern and southern Illyrians. It was also important to note that ancient Macedonians/southern Illyrians essentially were identical genetically. Alexander the Great's mother and paternal grandmother came from the territory of Albania And btw, I drew a box instead of individual points, because no one could predict exactly where they fell with 100% precision. Modern Albanians have Roman Imperial admixture as well.
    EDIT: I already see Michalis crying in Anthrogenica because ancient Albanians plot identical to Macedonians. That must hurt right in the Greek nationalism The leaked Greek study already showed that ancient Macedonians don't plot with Bulgarian IA, but he keeps propping up fake theories to sleep at night.
    I doubt he cares.
    As for the study it looks weird we have a Thessalonian and it looks Mycenaean.

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    I would bet my house that IA Macedonians were similar to Mycenaeans. Well if I am wrong I am wrong.

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    As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.

    The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.
    The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.
    Nah it is probably a sample from Northern Macedonia forming a cline with IA Albania to IA Croatia. Western Balkans was more Northern Shifted.
    Also, where is that proud J2b carrier screaming IA Albania will look like the Dalmatian samples?
    Last edited by ihype02; 30-06-22 at 14:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Nah it is probably a sample from Northern Macedonia forming a cline with IA Albania to IA Croatia. Western Balkans was more Northern Shifted.
    Also, were is that proud J2b carrier screaming IA Albania will look like the Dalmatian samples?
    I think more important than just North vs South is what kind of Northern ancestry. Because the Illyrian J-L283 carriers being shifted towards Bell Beakers, from which they clearly got influences (Bell Beakers into Cetina, Tumulus culture/Apennine culture into Posusje-Dinaric), while the more central Balkan group had closer ties, via Eastern Pannonia, to groups like Mierzanowice (Proto-Baltoslavic?) and Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni (late steppe, early Iranians?). They were in completely different networks.
    The Central Balkan groups were in a network with Epi-Corded/Eastern Europe and the steppe, as well as the Aegean and Anatolia at the same time. This is true throughout the time and from Pannonia down to the Aegean.

    The Illyrian network was more Danube-Alpine-Adriatic centered, so very clearly towards the Eastern and Southern Bell Beakers. And it shows, that's why the Illyrians plot so close to Southern French and Northern Italians.

    Very different with the Central Balkans groups. Channelled Ware brought new Northern influences, but the Thracian world connected Aegean-Anatolian with Pannonia, once more.

    In the developed Iron Age, some Illyrian groups expanded East, and fused and assimilated some of the Central groups, like the Srem group and the Dardanians are such mixed outcomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What we define archaeologically Illyrian which encompasses Glasinac-Mat and became synonymous with that nowadays and what was initially Illyrian might differ, the first attested Illyrian kingdom was that of Enchelei, the Enchelei used cremation on a pyre, and their burial rite might be Eastern Urnfield derived. The Illyrians on general were mostly affected by Glasinac-Mat Culture and secondarily the Trebeniste Culture whom Enchelei were representatives, the Enchelei are noted by Hammond to have had connections with Dardanii and Taulantii via the tribe called Peresadyes, this was used as personal name among Odrysians, and one attested Spartokid king in Black Sea Kingdom as well.

    I don't know how Y-DNA picture looked like, would be interesting to know if E-V13 appears in Early Iron Age. That would be clear. The Trebeniste Culture remains might be tested since during Classical times they started burying their deads in necropolises.

    Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Rhizon Montenegro. before they moved to Lake Ohrid Macedonia

    Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei. It later developed as a settlement of another Illyrian tribe, the Ardiaei.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think more important than just North vs South is what kind of Northern ancestry. Because the Illyrian J-L283 carriers being shifted towards Bell Beakers, from which they clearly got influences (Bell Beakers into Cetina, Tumulus culture/Apennine culture into Posusje-Dinaric), while the more central Balkan group had closer ties, via Eastern Pannonia, to groups like Mierzanowice (Proto-Baltoslavic?) and Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni (late steppe, early Iranians?). They were in completely different networks.
    The Central Balkan groups were in a network with Epi-Corded/Eastern Europe and the steppe, as well as the Aegean and Anatolia at the same time. This is true throughout the time and from Pannonia down to the Aegean.

    The Illyrian network was more Danube-Alpine-Adriatic centered, so very clearly towards the Eastern and Southern Bell Beakers. And it shows, that's why the Illyrians plot so close to Southern French and Northern Italians.

    Very different with the Central Balkans groups. Channelled Ware brought new Northern influences, but the Thracian world connected Aegean-Anatolian with Pannonia, once more.

    In the developed Iron Age, some Illyrian groups expanded East, and fused and assimilated some of the Central groups, like the Srem group and the Dardanians are such mixed outcomes.
    "Illyrian" referred to Iron Age Albanians you dolt. That was the first usage of the term Illyrian. The Greeks called their immediate northern neighbours Illyrian. The term comes from Greek.

    You're trying to change the definition of the word, because you've been wrong with every paper that comes out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.

    The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.
    Mate check the previous page. We have samples from northern Greece including Macedonia. They are Mycenean-like.

    Not published yet, but we took screenshots of their youtube video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    "Illyrian" referred to Iron Age Albanians you dolt. That was the first usage of the term Illyrian. The Greeks called their immediate northern neighbours Illyrian. The term comes from Greek.
    You're trying to change the definition of the word, because you've been wrong with every paper that comes out.
    Illyrians is not Albanians, its more and less tha that at the same time.
    The linguistic and cultural block just has a North Western origin in the Balkans. The historical Illyrians from the current area of Albania being just a small part of the larger group.
    And as we can see, the most mixed as well, because of the difference to the original core groups of Proto-Illyrians = HRV BA/IA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    My thread was finally proven today. Note how close Macedonia/Greek_Macedonia is to Illyrian. Pretty much identical.



    I said those samples of southern Illyrians and Macedonians/Epirotes would fall in that red box. That's exactly where they fell.

    Where is this leak from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Mate check the previous page. We have samples from northern Greece including Macedonia. They are Mycenean-like.

    Not published yet, but we took screenshots of their youtube video.
    I see only 1 sample from Thessalonike but do we know the dating? And we need at least 10-20 samples to start discussing things.

    In another thread here someone posted the samples from Greece where they were predicting their appearance and we had a red haired possibly blue eyed Epirote-Makedonian woman as well as a “city dweller” predicted as very Mediterranean. So we need many samples to differentiate locals from possible colonists from further South or the Agean.

    In any case, I believe the results will be on a cline.

    1st cline: North-West to South-East direction starting with Northern Illyrians (HRV) - Central - South Illyrians - Epirotes/Makedonians and so on towards Greece and the Aegean.

    2nd cline: North-East to South-West direction starting with Dacian/Carpathian - Thracian/Bessi/Odryssian - Southern Thracian/Makedonian - Thessalian and so on.

    So far Albanians seem to be in between these 2 clines. This could be due to West and East Balkan variations merging with the Southern ones perhaps due to the Migration Period where people were pushed South and West. Ph2ter’s graph shows this possible scenario very well and you can see the location of Logkas02 and 04 on the PCA.
    Attachment 13394


    So Makedonia did receive North Western and North Eastern intrusions but we don’t know yet how much it was affected or if the previous Mycenaean-like auDNA completely outnumbered them and the situation didn’t change much if not at all.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Illyrians is not Albanians, its more and less tha that at the same time.
    The linguistic and cultural block just has a North Western origin in the Balkans. The historical Illyrians from the current area of Albania being just a small part of the larger group.
    And as we can see, the most mixed as well, because of the difference to the original core groups of Proto-Illyrians = HRV BA/IA.
    Dude you're a clown and you've been exposed as such. Keep barking like a dog. The whole point of Illyrian-Albanian continuity is that Illyrians lived IN Albania.

    Illyrians = Greek name given to their immediate northern neighbours. I.E. Taulanti, Dassareti, Parthini, etc... No one even called places in Croatia/Slovenia "Illyrians" until the Romans took over those areas.

    Now that we have Iron Age samples from Albania, which I told you repeatedly they will be more southern and overlapping with Macedonians, now they're "just a small part of a larger group". Alright Bozo. I don't know why anyone still takes you seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Dude you're a clown and you've been exposed as such. Keep barking like a dog. The whole point of Illyrian-Albanian continuity is that Illyrians lived IN Albania.
    You are the clown if you don't understand where they were coming from. They might have been there in the historical period, but the main ancestral component and lineage came from North West of Albania.

    Or do you seriously claim that all the other samples with J-L283 and the Bell Beaker shift are no Illyrians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    You are the clown if you don't understand where they were coming from. They might have been there in the historical period, but the main ancestral component and lineage came from North West of Albania.

    Or do you seriously claim that all the other samples with J-L283 and the Bell Beaker shift are no Illyrians?
    Is there any ancient ethnicity/linguistic group that is genetically identical to modern populations of the same area?

    Because I know for a fact that modern Baltic people are more Southern shifted than their ancestors.

    Italians are Eastern shifted or Northern shifted.

    Iberians are South Eastern shifted.

    So does anyone really deserve to be called anything?

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