Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Dushman]

If the Corded Ware could be used as a Slavic proxy, doesn’t that clearly show that Albanians and Mainland Greeks are around 10% Slavic and not 35%+ as was previously claimed?

 

[Jovialis]

If the Corded Ware could be used as a Slavic proxy, doesn’t that clearly show that Albanians and Mainland Greeks are around 10% Slavic and not 35%+ as was previously claimed?

Indeed, Its looks to be so in the model. Unless it is subsuming some of it in "Yamnaya" or other "northern" groups.

 

[Angela]

It depends on which Greek sample we're looking at, yes? Greek Thessaly has much more than Greek Peloponnese.

Plus, I doubt the Slavic speaking migrants who arrived in Greece, in particular, in the early Middle Ages were pure Corded Ware. I'm sure they carried farmer ancestry of their own. What the papers are comparing is the "local" inhabitants at the time versus the migrants from thousands of years after Corded Ware. Still, I do think 35% seems really high.

 

[ihype02]

If the Corded Ware could be used as a Slavic proxy, doesn’t that clearly show that Albanians and Mainland Greeks are around 10% Slavic and not 35%+ as was previously claimed?

Using the Balkan_IA cluster versus Northern Eastern Russian Slavs, Albanians scored around 25% (?), for Ghegs it should be higher than that. The 38% figure came with Mycenaeans.


I2a and R1a in Gheg are only 10% though and nearly 50% in Serbs by comparison. Serbs can be modeled as 40% Ukrainian-like and 60% Gheg-like. So that a pretty big distance.
I think around 50% to 55% Slavic admixture in Serbs and around 15-20% in Ghegs.

 

[enter_tain]

Idk who claimed 35? Maybe if you include both Goths and Slavs (I1, R1a, certain clades I2a), but even then I'd say it's at most like 25-30%.

And no Corded Ware, shouldn't be used a proxy for early Middle Age Slavs.

 

[Jovialis]

Idk who claimed 35? Maybe if you include both Goths and Slavs (I1, R1a, certain clades I2a), but even then I'd say it's at most like 25-30%.

And no Corded Ware, shouldn't be used a proxy for early Middle Age Slavs.

I didn't choose it to be the proxy. The Slavic countries all get Corded Ware in huge amounts, and the distribution of it mirrors the spread of Slavic geneflow. Calling it a proxy was my observation.

 

[Dibran]

Using the Balkan_IA cluster versus Northern Eastern Russian Slavs, Albanians scored around 25% (?), for Ghegs it should be higher than that. The 38% figure came with Mycenaeans.


I2a and R1a in Gheg are only 10% though and nearly 50% in Serbs by comparison. Serbs can be modeled as 40% Ukrainian-like and 60% Gheg-like. So that a pretty big distance.
I think around 50% to 55% Slavic admixture in Serbs and around 15-20% in Ghegs.

I2a + R1a in Ghegs is roughly 12-13% together. 18% if you include I1.

 

[Dushman]

Using the Balkan_IA cluster versus Northern Eastern Russian Slavs, Albanians scored around 25% (?), for Ghegs it should be higher than that. The 38% figure came with Mycenaeans.


I2a and R1a in Gheg are only 10% though and nearly 50% in Serbs by comparison. Serbs can be modeled as 40% Ukrainian-like and 60% Gheg-like. So that a pretty big distance.
I think around 50% to 55% Slavic admixture in Serbs and around 15-20% in Ghegs.

So either North Italians are also 15-20% Slavic or the calculators are flawed.

I understand that Kosovo Ghegs are more North-Eastern shifted due to Slavic admixture, but we gotta differentiate between Ghegs too. I doubt the core of Gegënia has 20-25% Slavic admixture. I put my money on the 7-10%.

On another note, is anyone informed on the spread of E-V13 Z5017 and Z5018?

Is Z5017 more Western Balkans during Iron Age/Imperial Rome and Z5018 more Central and Eastern Balkan?

 

[Jovialis]

^^Models are not only dependent on axioms, but also our own discretion when considering archeology and history when determining the accuracy.

It gets a bit fuzzy, and you need to do a lot of mental gymnastics. That's part of the danger of this hobby, because it is easily abused.

 

[Hawk]

On another note, is anyone informed on the spread of E-V13 Z5017 and Z5018?

Is Z5017 more Western Balkans during Iron Age/Imperial Rome and Z5018 more Central and Eastern Balkan?

To my understanding on a general scale, E-V13 Z5018 is more of a Western and E-V13 Z5017 is more of an Eastern probably Daco-Thracian lineage. Z5017 was found among Moesi in the Viminacium paper. But, it shouldn't be taken literally since overall i think they expanded together with the South-East Urnfielders during LBA/EIA.

 

[Angela]

So either North Italians are also 15-20% Slavic or the calculators are flawed.

I understand that Kosovo Ghegs are more North-Eastern shifted due to Slavic admixture, but we gotta differentiate between Ghegs too. I doubt the core of Gegënia has 20-25% Slavic admixture. I put my money on the 7-10%.

On another note, is anyone informed on the spread of E-V13 Z5017 and Z5018?

Is Z5017 more Western Balkans during Iron Age/Imperial Rome and Z5018 more Central and Eastern Balkan?

No. North Italians are 15-20% Yamnaya and Catacomb, and then maybe 5% Corded and 5-10% Hallstatt etc. In reality, of course, that Yamnaya and Corded came with the Italics and Ligures, but there's no source for them yet so the steppe portion of those groups gets dumped into that.

You can't think linearly, as Jovialis said, when you're interpreting these models.

 

[Dushman]

^^Models are not only dependent on axioms, but also our own discretion when considering archeology and history when determining the accuracy.

It gets a bit fuzzy, and you need to do a lot of mental gymnastics. That's part of the danger of this hobby, because it is easily abused.

Agreed! Thanks for the chart by the way, it really helps us beginners catch up faster.

I only want to know the truth because for me personally there’s something to be proud of with every ancient ethnicity.

I ordered my own autosomal test so I’ll start playing with calculators soon.

No. North Italians are 15-20% Yamnaya and Catacomb, and then maybe 5% Corded and 5-10% Hallstatt etc. In reality, of course, that Yamnaya and Corded came with the Italics and Ligures, but there's no source for them yet so the steppe portion of those groups gets dumped into that.

You can't think linearly, as Jovialis said, when you're interpreting these models.

Yes, true. I was simply referring to the calculations from few months ago that showed even North Italians and French as “part Slavic”.

Of course that’s not true, it’s just confusing for me to decide what to believe. On one hand I want to believe modern genetics, but on the other hand I don’t see how Albanians are up to 35% pure Slavs/North-Eastern Europeans.

I’ve seen Bosnian autosomal results that score 40-50% Balkans on Ancestry or MyHeritage and Albanians with 0-10%. So if everyone agrees that Bosnians are indeed 40-60% Slavic, why Albanians can’t be 0-10%? Anyway, I hope with more ancient data we’ll clear this up. For now it’s too confusing

 

[Dushman]

To my understanding on a general scale, E-V13 Z5018 is more of a Western and E-V13 Z5017 is more of an Eastern probably Daco-Thracian lineage. Z5017 was found among Moesi in the Viminacium paper. But, it shouldn't be taken literally since overall i think they expanded together with the South-East Urnfielders during LBA/EIA.

I just rechecked and Z5017 has a clear Western distribution whereas Z17107 specifically has an obvious Western Balkans presence nowadays found mainly in Albania, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary.

Seems more related to the Pannonian-Dalmatian-Illyrii proprie dicti area.

 

[Hawk]

I just rechecked and Z5017 has a clear Western distribution whereas Z17107 specifically has an obvious Western Balkans presence nowadays found mainly in Albania, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary.

Seems more related to the Pannonian-Dalmatian-Illyrii proprie dicti area.

I said on larger scale, Central-Western Europe has far more Z5018.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

Biggest pile of nonsense i have read, literally made everything up

IA croatian samples were heavily mixed with celts. What anatolian ancestry you on about? Southern europe always looked southern, slavic and germanic input pushed south europe more northern than "illyrians" were

 

[Hawk]

To clarify, there is no archaeological evidence that Daunians came from Albania proper.

It's just a miss-representation and missinterpretation of facts.

The people who claim that usually base their argument on Matt-Painted Pottery Culture who had it's spread in Campania as well where no Illyrians settled.

So the question of from where Daunians, Iapygians, Messapians came from Adriatic is still open, not quite sure from where but for sure from somewhere from the other side of Adriatic.

 

[enter_tain]

Another paper showing the exact same thing. Albanians and Greeks are circled in pink. Russians in blue.

As per OP

 

[enter_tain]

Modern Albanians and Greeks are a perfect mixture of Mycenean + Slavic (also some slight Germanic). Anyone who's not blind can see it.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Another paper showing the exact same thing. Albanians and Greeks are circled in pink. Russians in blue.

As per OP

What era are the Greek samples from (red squares)? Is there a paper that can be linked to the PCA?

 

[enter_tain]

What era are the Greek samples from (red squares)? Is there a paper that can be linked to the PCA?

Yeah check out the new Greek thread. They're mostly from LBA/IA. The ones at the bottom are Neolithic/Mesolithic.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ransect-(Mesolithic-to-Medieval)-from-Biomuse

Unfortunately, paper is not out yet, but that was a screenshot someone at Anthrogenica took from their video.